Who should we keep for the 23/24 season?

[Miguelito07]

7 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

There is a player trapped in there , he was fantastic against us when he played for Brighton , admittedly he was only up against Lukaku so it may not be a great indicator .

Better coach ? 

Some coaching would be a vast improvement on the none he's received this season , even Lampard appears to be all rhetoric no coaching . 

I actually agree. I thought he played well under TT. I even remember the first match against Everton where he came on second half. Definitely needs a better coach

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

There is a player trapped in there , he was fantastic against us when he played for Brighton , admittedly he was only up against Lukaku so it may not be a great indicator .

Better coach ? 

Some coaching would be a vast improvement on the none he's received this season , even Lampard appears to be all rhetoric no coaching . 

He's obviously got the capabilities, that was demonstrated all of last season and is why Man City were very interested in signing them themselves. Like many others this season though he's been poor on a fairly regular basis, granted some of which isn't fault of his own courtesy of illness and then having his house burgled. 

I certainly wouldn't cut him lose after one single season where he hasn't been the only under performer. 

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

At most other times in recent history, I'd agree with you. But this summer we need income that can go straight onto the books and wages off the weekly bill. I think that makes all our home grown players, especially those we haven't been using up until this point, vulnerable. Maatsen also has that question about doing it in the PL hanging over him; he may prove he can and be an enviable talent to keep, he may prove he can't and that his summer 2023 value is the most valuable he is ever going to be. That's a tough financial hit to take on the chin right now, I can imagine there will be some in the club looking at the disappearing CL money and thinking "£30m for Gallagher was not to be sniffed at, actually". All factors that make me think we'd accept any reasonable offer made, and you'd imagine Burnley will make a reasonable offer.

I also worry for Colvill for the same reasons. We can't have Colvill, Badiashile, Fofana, Silva and Koulibaly (and Chalobah!) here as CB options next year. 5 or 6 is simply too many. We won't be looking to sell Fofana or Badiashile, won't find a taker for Koulibaly at anything but our own considerable expense and clearly want Silva around. Colwill is, in that sense, sellable. Not what I want, but I can see it happening.

Should the club cash in on the likes of Maatsen or Colwill then TB might as well go the hole 9 yards and close the academy.  TB would be better trying to recoup some of his money from the January Brighton experiment. 

Neither have indicated their desire to leave or have refused to sign a contract, which is the opposite to when the club punted Geui and Tomori. 

 

[ROTG]

16 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

He's obviously got the capabilities, that was demonstrated all of last season and is why Man City were very interested in signing them themselves. Like many others this season though he's been poor on a fairly regular basis, granted some of which isn't fault of his own courtesy of illness and then having his house burgled. 

I certainly wouldn't cut him lose after one single season where he hasn't been the only under performer. 

More likely the case Chitty sniffed because they were looking for replacement for the Chelsea bound Ake according to the rumours.  

However one thing for sure Chitty would not have spent £60m on him. 

[xceleryx]

2 minutes ago, ROTG said:

More likely the case Chitty sniffed because they were looking for replacement for the Chelsea bound Ake according to the rumours.  

However one thing for sure Chitty would not have spent £60m on him. 

City were after him before the Ake rumours took place, so that really wasn't a factor in their pursuit.

They were quoted £50m and walked away, as that was the price tag Brighton slapped on him. Which again, was fair given the circumstances at the time - an important player, long term deal, only joined a year prior, had an outstanding season, was their POTS.

We also paid more purely because we didn't want to sell them Colwill as part of the deal. In the end keeping Colwill cost us £10m extra, or depending how you choose to see it we paid Brighton that fee to develop him for a season. Which, with the way things have panned out, has arguably been worth it. 

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

Should the club cash in on the likes of Maatsen or Colwill then TB might as well go the hole 9 yards and close the academy.  TB would be better trying to recoup some of his money from the January Brighton experiment. 

Neither have indicated their desire to leave or have refused to sign a contract, which is the opposite to when the club punted Geui and Tomori. 

I don't especially want either sold. Can't say I've seen enough of either to have strong views on them.

But you're missing the point, which is about where money realistically can be brought in. We aren't doing that on anyone signed during the Clearlake era. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by thevelourfog

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

They were quoted £50m and walked away, as that was the price tag Brighton slapped on him. Which again, was fair given the circumstances at the time - an important player, long term deal, only joined a year prior, had an outstanding season, was their POTS.

No wonder they walked away. £50m for a POTY at a team which finished 11th. Then along came TB. 

As for Colwill he was fortunate that TB came along again to prise away team GP. 

It’s a funny old game. 

[xceleryx]

10 hours ago, ROTG said:

No wonder they walked away. £50m for a POTY at a team which finished 11th. Then along came TB. 

As for Colwill he was fortunate that TB came along again to prise away team GP. 

It’s a funny old game. 

That's how the market is these days, it doesn't take much long term substance to raise values, especially in a position such as left-back where there's always a bit of a premium when a good one pops up. 

Is what it is really.

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

That's how the market is these days, it doesn't take much long term substance to raise values, especially in a position such as left-back where there's always a bit of a premium when a good one pops up. 

Is what it is really.

As you said earlier, Chitty walked away from a mid table POTY which really tells you what Pep thought of him, Especially with Chitty being leaders in buying LB / RB / CB. 

There was no reality in paying £60m for an average player. The same could be said for a majority of the players brought in two transfers windows.

The old regime must be laughing their socks off. 

[xceleryx]

9 minutes ago, ROTG said:

As you said earlier, Chitty walked away from a mid table POTY which really tells you what Pep thought of him, Especially with Chitty being leaders in buying LB / RB / CB. 

There was no reality in paying £60m for an average player. The same could be said for a majority of the players brought in two transfers windows.

The old regime must be laughing their socks off. 

They walked away because they also weren't that desperate for one, so spending that sort of money on a less crucial position made little sense. Despite Zinchenko leaving, they still had options on hand that could plug the gap in Ake and Cancelo. Then they ended up signing Sergio Gomez for like £11m or something and he's barely kicked a ball all year.

For us, we had greater need given the Chilwell situation with his injury and the desire of Alonso to leave. Thus us basically agreeing to pay the asking price of £50m, plus extra to keep hold of Colwill and make his move a loan, was considered worthwhile business. 

Ahh yes, because the old regime never spent spent £50m on a visibly crocked Torres, having not learnt from when they spent £30 odd million on a crocked Shevchenko who also had known knee issues the prior season. What about the £10m or so on Boulahrouz and Del Horno, the £26m or so on Wright-Phillips, £20m on Zhirkov and Bosingwa, and so on. They spent their fair share on both crocked and utter garbage. Revisionism at its finest. 

[asvaberg]

I'm gonna watch the Inter - Benfica tonight and see if Lukaku plays, and how. He IS a Chelsea player and we MIGHT see him next season in a Chelsea shirt, like it or not (I'm among the latter)

[chrisb]

1 hour ago, asvaberg said:

I'm gonna watch the Inter - Benfica tonight and see if Lukaku plays, and how. He IS a Chelsea player and we MIGHT see him next season in a Chelsea shirt, like it or not (I'm among the latter)

If he is back here next season he’ll be hard to miss, the club will have to knock up that XXXXXL shirt again.

[Mark Kelly]

2 hours ago, asvaberg said:

I'm gonna watch the Inter - Benfica tonight and see if Lukaku plays, and how. He IS a Chelsea player and we MIGHT see him next season in a Chelsea shirt, like it or not (I'm among the latter)

He'll be the one with a kebab. 

[Chelsea_Matt]

3 hours ago, chrisb said:

If he is back here next season he’ll be hard to miss, the club will have to knock up that XXXXXL shirt again.

And Cobham Doughnut Emporium might sponsor us 🤣 

[Holymoly]

It will be interesting to see who ends up on the plane to Murca in July. I'll guess now that there will be at least one player we have been yelling for them to bin all year included, and that that player will have a transformative season under Pochettino. Similarly I fear for some of our current favourites. What will be worrying however is if there are any players left behind because of injury. Ideally the manager will have the full squad available and all players deemed superfluous absent or otherwise disposed of. At the moment the unpleasantness of the season just gone is still too raw for me to contemplate individual player's dates without wishing the vast majority gone.

[east lower]

On 18/04/2023 at 05:43, xceleryx said:

Ahh yes, because the old regime never spent spent £50m on a visibly crocked Torres, having not learnt from when they spent £30 odd million on a crocked Shevchenko who also had known knee issues the prior season. What about the £10m or so on Boulahrouz and Del Horno, the £26m or so on Wright-Phillips, £20m on Zhirkov and Bosingwa, and so on. They spent their fair share on both crocked and utter garbage. Revisionism at its finest. 

Both Torres and Shevva were Roman’s vanity purchases - not saying that’s the right thing to do, but that’s where it was at.

And……..I’m not having anything negative said about Bosingwa - if the rumours and statements made by some of the players are true, it was Jose acting like his namesake that got us through the semi and the final in 2012.😀

[Gurj SS]

My first post back, I'm not even sure it'll make sense but I think I've done enough to capture the topsy turvy...ness of what I've been thinking is going on for us right now.

I don't think I'm frustrated or annoyed at the current affairs at our club, I'm more worried than any of those. We've had some very uncertain times in the past but we find ourselves in a whole different place now, when we've had turmoil at board/manager level we've had the players to turn it around (JT, Frank, Drogs, then Cesc, Costa, recently Kante, Kova, Jorge, Havertz, Mount). When we've had turmoil at squad level we've had the manager to turn it around (Jose, Carlo, Conte, Tuchel), but now we seem to have it everywhere and there's some ship jumping more than being pushed from the players which has been extremely rare for us even at our worst in recent history (RA onwards); we can't look further back because us as a club and football as a whole was just so different.

In the past when we've had a poor season I've been able to look at the squad and think, 'these guys can do a lot better next season and probably will' and 'maybe we just need a few tweaks or additions for next season', be it players or the manager. This time it feels like the players who you'd look to, to think you can trust them to turn things around, have already, or are expected to leave. Now I'm not saying if they stay we have a great next season or everything gets fixed, but what they would be able to do is be the seniors for the manager to work with and fix what went wrong; unless Poch doesn't want them around, which I think would actually be worse in a way that he'd rather avoid an issue than work it out. We can only guess regarding this matter at present, the identity of our club was questioned when RA took over so it's normal for that to happen under TB, but at the moment there's a weird disconnect of some sort in that there's no direction; at times there doesn't seem to be a plan in place even with the players we have been linked with, some extortionate fees are being thrown around for players who simply aren't worth it.

Now having watched us this season there's a clear problem for us in the final third, so much so that it actually makes us concede goals, I'm not in the slightest bit saying we have no issues at the back but when the team is failing to be an attacking force then the pressure keeps building up; the quality of the attack isn't just vital in scoring goals but also in providing a genuine threat to the opposition so they don't commit too many players forward to overload our defense. I think our attack is the most vital part of this transfer window to correct and we need some top quality scouts who are able to think about the current team for next season; all these 18-19 year olds signing is all well and good, but only if when they hit 22 there's a team competing at an adequate level, or they'll just leave on free transfers at some point.

 

The players who contributed last season that have left or are highly expected to leave are:

Koulibaly

Chalobah

Kante

Kovacic

RLC

Mount

Ziyech

Pulisic

Havertz

Koulibaly - struggled to fit in but Fofana has been so poor at times I think it's worth keeping Koulibaly around; unless we bring in a world class center back, like a real star.

Chalobah - For all the talk around Caicedo and Rice, honestly I'd use my money elsewhere for next season and use Chalobah as an 'anchorman' in front of a 4 man defense, nothing fancy and just protect the backline (that's what Rice does for 90% of the game, reality is a defensive midfielder running on the ball is still a defensive midfielder; we'd all prefer someone more creative to have the ball. Using an anchorman would also protect the older CBs and the young guys who are still developing.

Kante - Gone, became injury prone but I'd have given him 1 more year; sometimes a player is needed at a crucial time in a particular situation and a fit Kante would have done wonders going into a new season.

Kova - To find a player with his abilities in today's game is way more than how much we'd get for him, and we simply won't replace him. We'll have to just go without, yeah he can't score but he does so much more in being able to carry the ball and play in tight spaces that players like Enzo, Rice and Caicedo can only dream of doing. I'm not putting those guys down but Kova is levels above in being able to hold a game together when under pressure.

RLC - Should have gone a while back, should have stayed at Palace for his sake.

Mount - Really hope he doesn't go, but I personally think he's seeing what's going on at the club and doesn't feel connected to it anymore; I don't think it's about the wages more than the respect given to him (or lack of). I don't think he's a world beater in any way, but you don't have to be if you give your all, and he has done just that.

Ziyech - Should have left in January for PSG, we blundered.

Pulisic - Injury prone, probably our best attacking player in terms of ability but his form gets hampered by injuries; plus when he hasn't been injured we've seen players like Gallagher and Madueke used ahead of him; that's just a joke.

Havertz - Quality player, top class, lazy at times but that's more about his style of play than application; I just can't blame him for the following reasons: Came to support a striker but ended up being the striker, has had zero creativity for most of the season behind him, the wide players this season have been nothing short of abysmal and he has had to at times play 3 roles in 1 (ST, LW, RW); at times it's looked like he's been asked to set himself up to score too.

 

Players I think we should never have got:

Koulibaly - Yep, I've said keep him but Tomori was always the better option.

Fofana - Chalobah is better and was free, Colwill is better and so much better it makes you think if our coaching staff are blind; they didn't see what Colwill had and saw what Fofana doesn't have; maybe he'll come good one day but a ridiculous amount of money spent for nothing special, Tomori walks the floor with him.

Cucurella - He looked so sharp when he first came, but I think it was because we finally had a left back that wasn't injured, a waste of money.

Madueke - I don't know, CHO or Anjorin can do what he has done with their eyes closed, shown nothing.

Mudryk - He's quick, very quick, maybe too quick, a lightweight Traore; could have just signed Traore for a fraction of the price. Crazy money on someone who hasn't shown anything to even have hope for, other than he's quick.

Auba - Who signed this move off needs testing for drugs asap, however the fact that the squad got into the position of him being a viable option is unforgivable.

 

Do we need to rebuild? Yes, do we need to get rid of the core players to do it? No. It's the squad fillers that need to go, and then bring in 2-3 top class players every year. In the state we're likely to be left in now, the first team might look decent-ish on paper but if they don't overachieve then I presently I can't see us get back our best; more so when I see the prices we are willing to pay for some players, our first team will be worth a gazillion pound and our bench will be without options.

I think the board need to slow down, they should keep the core players and then bring in players who will replace them in time because they've earned their right to be selected over them; not just replaced them for mega money prices, more so we need to keep the 'Chelsea' in the squad as these players won us a Champions League so they're not a bad set of players by any means.

If our squad is fully fit, from what I've seen so far, Fofana, Cucurella, Madueke and Mudryk don't make my starting line-up, they've simply not done enough to place trust in them to carry us forwards. My concern is we're looking to spend crazy money on holding midfielders who won't improve anything because our main issues are to do with what's in front of them and behind them. We need younger and quicker centre backs who are ready, if they need developing then loan them out and let them do that elsewhere. We need far more creativity in the final third, we need players to be able to find others in space and players who actually want to attack space (and be brave in taking players on if they have the ability to, and if they don't then get rid); most importantly be able to put a ball into a dangerous area at the right time. None of this is fixed by buying an expensive holding midfielder, namely Rice (West Ham defend in very high numbers) and Caicedo (Brighton recently looked better when he was moved to right back). Was Jorginho a bad sale, I think I'm one of the few on here that thought he brought something to the team, I think when he left we fell apart in midfield; Enzo is a top player but he isn't someone who is happy to sit back and organize (neither are Rice and Caicedo), also I think people underestimate how good De Paul is (and was in the world cup), now he's a player I'd spend money on and he made Enzo's life so much more easier.

All in all, my post may make sense or not, if the latter I think it may be because I'm yet to make sense of which direction we're going in. I'm all for investing in young players and building a team, but if we have to spend astronomical amounts on headline grabbing players then they need to already be well proven in the Champions League. We're currently looking at players who we'd be signing from teams who have never played on the front foot in terms of chasing serious silverware, these players should be signed for decent prices and not crazy £80,90,100m prices. I just hope someone knows what they're doing because we've already spent quite a bit with little or no return/improvement.

Maybe I'm way off and things will be fine, but for the first time in a very very long time I'm actually wanting the summer to slow down, and not looking forward to the start of the season, something just says - it can get worse and might just this time. As much as this squad does need new signings, I think quiet signings might be the way to go as our recent big money deals have just been flat. C'mon, put me in my place and give me some optimism.

[My Blood Is Blue]

Welcome back @Gurj SS, so glad you found us and a fantastic post to reintroduce yourself with.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said to be honest, ultimately the squad is way too bloated with mediocre players. 

[Gurj SS]

7 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Welcome back @Gurj SS, so glad you found us and a fantastic post to reintroduce yourself with.

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said to be honest, ultimately the squad is way too bloated with mediocre players. 

Thanks mate.

Yeah I agree, someone somewhere dropped the ball and hasn't found it yet. To think we had Rudiger, Christensen and Alonso leave for free and signed Fofana, Koulibaly and Cucurella for a combined approx. £170m.

Then we went on to spend approx. £110m on Mudryk and Madueke, to only then go and loan in Felix who did more in a single game in which he also got sent off in than the two of them have done from January to May. Felix showcased his quality and we decided to reject buying him, something is wrong somewhere; it's like we've been infiltrated at corporate level by a rival club.

The crazy long contracts is baffling too, FFP played a part in that decision but after being stung for £100m with Lukaku I'd have thought someone somewhere, anyone, even the chef if need be, would have thrown that idea out the top window of the tallest tower in London.

The way things are going I think the question this summer won't be 'who should we keep for the 23-24 season', it'll be 'who will we be able to keep hold of'. If too many first team players leave we'll have a huge drop in quality that even with signings will still leave us short. We haven't replaced Rudiger and Alonso yet, let alone the possibility of replacing Kante, Kova, Mount and Havertz.

So much for optimism, maybe Poch comes in and says the right things; especially because we haven't replaced Tuchel yet and hopefully we've at least got the right manger this time.

[paulw66]

15 hours ago, Gurj SS said:

 

Madueke - I don't know, CHO or Anjorin can do what he has done with their eyes closed, shown nothing.

 

Not going to go through the whole post, but this really stood out!

CHO has been an abject failure who can't get in the Leverkusen side, whilst Anjorin has failed to make a mark in the Championship. I honestly wonder what either of them have done to draw that conclusion.

Madueke looks very raw, but there is something there to work with

[chara]

@Gurj SS...great to see you back and "involved".....the part of your post that jumped out at me was the "slow down" reference something that has been buzzing around just out of focus with me..absolutely right. A lot of the decisions made by the new regime in isolation have not been a complete waste or disaster but as a whirlwind of change over a short period of time things seem to have got into a log jam of sorts and much potential good lost in the pile up..

For me GP was the biggest mistake but at least "they" did a Roman on him and we may( or may not!) be heading in a better direction on the pitch...time will tell of course.

Once you get "settled" in I'm sure you will appreciate the new Forum vibes....new faces and old guard (or in many cases usual suspects) 😄but a lighter air and WE are the owners thanks to the Tech wizardry and effort of Sam ,the kind hand and sincere efforts of Jane  and MT's iron hand.plus many others who contributed to the revival in unannounced ways.

Again..welcome home.....(That of course is as relevant for everyone.)

[Sciatika]

Blimey. Has MT had a hand amputated?

[Ham]

18 hours ago, Gurj SS said:

Snipped

Agree with a lot of what you say with the exception of your views on Noni and Fofana.

The former showed huge promise.  Got into fantastic positions and then looked up to find nobody in space.  Like Hall, he should have had a few assists in the run in.  

On Wes, he's a fantastic player.  Absolutely brilliant.  He simply had a couple of bad days at the office in a team lacking confidence and that's all people can remember. 

He WILL be a resounding success with us.  Mark my words. 

[xceleryx]

Don't necessarily agree with large parts of what you've shared @Gurj SS, but it's good to see you around and contributing once more. 

[Gurj SS]

On 16/06/2023 at 14:44, paulw66 said:

Not going to go through the whole post, but this really stood out!

CHO has been an abject failure who can't get in the Leverkusen side, whilst Anjorin has failed to make a mark in the Championship. I honestly wonder what either of them have done to draw that conclusion.

Madueke looks very raw, but there is something there to work with

I really hope you're right mate, but honestly being raw means being loaned out to the Dutch league, not coming from there still as raw as when he left. It's worrying when he comes back into the country he originallly left from and looks totally foreign to the way the game is played. What I meant was he is squad filler quality, I think CHO and Anjorin could be that, with CHO there's even a versitility in being able to play by cutting in on the left or going on the outside as a RWB. 

I hope he picks his game up and develops massively over the summer, or he'll be a £15m sale next summer by the looks of this summer's transfer window.