Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[boratsbrother]

44 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

^ Insightful video for sure. What it does explain is that there is/has been a mass of contradictions with everything that has happened at the club over the last 12 months.

Poch is known for working and developing young players, but he is also know for a more direct style of football, played at high intensity which gets forward players forward and scores goals. So if everything is geared towards possession football, and we have certainly been playing possession football in the last 24 months, then why appoint him in the first place? So clear a misalignment there with who made the appointment, as they didnt do enough homework to know what they were getting, compared with what they really wanted.

This further illustrates that we can forgot about any reference to Gallagher and the new manager. He's gone and the management at the top want him gone. He is a Poch disciple for Poch football.

If there is an acceptance for individual player talent producing great moments on occasions, rather than it being down to a well organised structure of play. There is a balance to be hand there, cos those great moments of individual talent are far more likely to occur when a player has a certain amount of freedom. and when you are in a situation where the team attacks forward with numbers and in a more direct manner (direct is not specifically long ball- before some post that we play out from the back). So its very easy to put that credit at the players door and think the manager is irrelevant to how that happened. I think next season will show that to be inaccurate. It may not be a well thought out process, but it has a far higher chance of occuring because of Poch style and structure (or lack of if some want to use that)

You only have to look back at the numbers the likes of Dele Alli, Kane , Son were posting for Spurs, supported by the likes of Lucas Moura.

I think a natural conclusion is that it would be very difficult for Poch to win a title in the PL. I think the vast majority of people on here accept this, his style of football is quite specific and opens up potential for many wins, but quite a few losses along the way.

At the same time, for where we are right now as a club, and where these players are right now in their development. I find it difficult to think another year of stability had many advantages. I believe it will be very difficult to achieve what the club want under a specific new manager next season, without actually going backwards first. Unless the new manager is extremely good at his job and at getting his philosophy across, whilst being astute and flexible enough to manager situations well on/off the pitch.

I think some people have this notion that we can keep all the good bits from last season cos we have the players, but loses the bad bits the manager brought to the table, then the new manager adds structure and coaching and we simply progress from there. I think it will soon become apparent that many of those good bits happened because we were not tied down to specific structure/shape/organisation.

I expect we will score less goals next season, we will concede less goals next season. We will probably win less games, draw more games and probably lose less games too. Who knows where that leaves us this time next year, but I would expect in a position no better than we are right now.

Great post there!

 

re the bit about individual flair over structure.

Imho, that's what made the classic Brazialan teams  such  wonderful teams to watch. They allowed their players great freedom to express themselves. Sadly, over the last 15 years or so,  they have become just like every other nation team putting team structure  way ahead of  flair and imagination. 

Also agree about your prediction for next season - less goals scored, fewer conceeded etc. In other words, welcome back to a lot of very dull, practical performances and  games where nothing remotely memorable ever happens.  Welcome back to waiting half an hour for a shot on goal. No more outrageous goals from the halfway line. No more risk taking, Play it safe when we get back into games rather than go all out for a win.  

We weren't a top team last season but we were  a team other fans were enjoying watching. So what I can many on here say, ignoring the point that the vast majority of football fans are not Cheksea fans and it's the vast majority where you build your fanbase from in this day and age. Who's going to want to watch a moderate team playing boring practical football? Be no different to watching a Wolves or West Ham.

 

 

[Thiago97]

41 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

It does make you wonder exactly that , however it also highlighted exactly what many of us were saying all season , he isn't coaching them , he's giving them free reign to do what they like to mixed results , it's no wonder they love him they had no responsibility to each other. 

I am staggered that in some quarters he's being given kudos for playing Gallagher with Caicedo and improving the midfield at a stroke when the concept was forced upon him through necessity though.  

I am concerned Clownlake will nause things up again but as there's nothing I you or anyone can do about that I'm resigned to not worrying about it. 

Is this not just picking out the bits from an article that fit the narrative you want though? From what I see on here, its often the media know nothing, they write rubbish, make out they have insider moles that dont exist etc etc etc

Until someone writes/talks about the things that suit that persons narrative, then its some sort of clear justification and worthy of note. I struggle to see how it can work both ways here.

I'm also staggered that some are linking the importance of Gallagher to any new manager. Tuchel , Potter both had him for periods and he was a squad option. Gallagher is a Poch player with 50 appearences this season, the new man don't get to use not having Gallagher as any type of excuse for how things play out. Removing Poch makes it far easier to sell Gallagher.

Like I said, we will find it is very hard to keep all the good bits and just lose the bad bits of Poch. Structure, coaching and organisation often comes with some sort of trade off. The top3 three teams in England happen to have most of the best players, but the only one of the three you would say are well structured right now is probably Arsenal. Liverpool and City play chaos football as much as we do, they just have  better and more experienced players, and stability of good managers and a culture that supports what has been implemented over 7-8 years.

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Thiago97 said:

Is this not just picking out the bits from an article that fit the narrative you want though?

Not really , it's validated what I was vocal about from the off where we looked uncoached because we were uncoached .

I could be wrong which I accept as can the guy in the video .

[Thiago97]

Just now, Mark Kelly said:

Not really , it's validated what I was vocal about from the off where we looked uncoached because we were uncoached .

I could be wrong which I accept as can the guy in the video .

The thing is you are probably not wrong. Whilst we disagree on the overall points, I don't hugely disagree with the point about the whole lack of coaching/structure point of view. I never have pushed back on this too much, as I think there is very likely something in this. I just also believe that this lighter touch if you like, is exactly what young inexperienced players can benefit from, in their current cycle of development.

Where I think we differ is that I believe this lighter approach/man management style has produced advantages to us this season, that would carry over to next season (If you remember - I called Poch a foreign Harry Redknapp a few months back - I think there are a number of similarities in their management style)

Where I think you believe that a stricter more technical/tactical switched on organised coach will produce better results with this current group.

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Thiago97 said:

The thing is you are probably not wrong. Whilst we disagree on the overall points, I don't hugely disagree with the point about the whole lack of coaching/structure point of view. I never have pushed back on this too much, as I think there is very likely something in this. I just also believe that this lighter touch if you like, is exactly what young inexperienced players can benefit from, in their current cycle of development.

Where I think we differ is that I believe this lighter approach/man management style has produced advantages to us this season, that would carry over to next season (If you remember - I called Poch a foreign Harry Redknapp a few months back - I think there are a number of similarities in their management style)

Where I think you believe that a stricter more technical/tactical switched on organised coach will produce better results with this current group.

Yes , I can see that the players liked playing for Poch and that has helped them to a degree as well , nobody likes being shouted at in comparison to a fatherly arm around the shoulders !

[ROTG]

33 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Yes , I can see that the players liked playing for Poch and that has helped them to a degree as well , nobody likes being shouted at in comparison to a fatherly arm around the shoulders !

Just ask Jadon Sancho or Marcus Rashford 

I'll get my dummy and spit it out

[blueandproud]

7 hours ago, ROTG said:

Just ask Jadon Sancho or Marcus Rashford 

I'll get my dummy and spit it out

Imagine what Brian Clough or Tommy Docherty would have done to them back in the day?  They would be crying off to their mummies!

[chiswickblue]

40 minutes ago, blueandproud said:

Imagine what Brian Clough or Tommy Docherty would have done to them back in the day?  They would be crying off to their mummies!

Fortunately we've moved past that era of glorifying a "school of hard knocks". All players have different personalities and good coaches have to be able to deal with all of them.

[boratsbrother]

9 minutes ago, chiswickblue said:

Fortunately we've moved past that era of glorifying a "school of hard knocks". All players have different personalities and good coaches have to be able to deal with all of them.

I couldn't disagree more with what you said.

Listening carefully to teachers, managers etc. Taking on board what they want and expect from you. Learning discipline and showing respect.  All things which were there for the good of the individual, team and society as a whole. Might not have been perfect, but it's better than the brattish, selfish, know it all don't tell me what to attitude of today. 

And yes, i am turning into my dad, which I swore I'd  never do.🙄

[chiswickblue]

2 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

I couldn't disagree more with what you said.

Listening carefully to teachers, managers etc. Taking on board what they want and expect from you. Learning discipline and showing respect.  All things which were there for the good of the individual, team and society as a whole. Might not have been perfect, but it's better than the brattish, selfish, know it all don't tell me what to attitude of today. 

And yes, i am turning into my dad, which I swore I'd  never do.🙄

I didn't think these were the values you were implying from your previous post.

In any case, footballers 50 years ago were far more similar to normal people. You can hardly blame footballers for the massive explosion in the industry in the last 30 years which has made them multi-millionaires that live in a bubble and have very different values to normal people.

It's like expecting the royal family to be normal.

[boratsbrother]

10 hours ago, chiswickblue said:

I didn't think these were the values you were implying from your previous post.

In any case, footballers 50 years ago were far more similar to normal people. You can hardly blame footballers for the massive explosion in the industry in the last 30 years which has made them multi-millionaires that live in a bubble and have very different values to normal people.

It's like expecting the royal family to be normal.

Liking a manager who allows his players to express themselves on the pitch isn't contradictory to what I said.  

Regardless of who the manager is  and what type of methods he has, a player should listen and do what he says while they are on the training pitch, in the dressing room or on the picth during a game.They all  turn up on time,all work hard etc etc etc. Every manager should be strict with those parts of managing a team of footballers or any other team of people.  If they don't like it they can leave.

When there's a lack of respect and discipline, it  can result in the kind of pathetic and  embarrassing  penalty fracas we saw with Madueke and Jackson. 

[thevelourfog]

May have been mentioned in the thread already but I've just realised Pochettino is in a dugout at Stamford Bridge for Soccer Aid in a few weeks. Awkward.

[Ham]

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

May have been mentioned in the thread already but I've just realised Pochettino is in a dugout at Stamford Bridge for Soccer Aid in a few weeks. Awkward.

I wonder if he'll make second half changes when Gemma Collins misses her 4th sitter of the game? 

[asvaberg]

7 hours ago, Ham said:

I wonder if he'll make second half changes when Gemma Collins misses her 4th sitter of the game? 

Surely the game will be decided with penalties and Poch will go for this for the last 80 minutes 😁😁😁

Edited May 24 by asvaberg

[east lower]

See the link, one-by-one more will come out as regards what was happening under the last coach. 
 

Now, which method is/was the best approach is very much debatable but given the stuff regarding injuries that were recited to me (and then posted on the forum) it seems that the run, run, run mentality probably contributed to the last coach’s leaving.

[ROTG]

7 minutes ago, east lower said:

See the link, one-by-one more will come out as regards what was happening under the last coach. 
 

Now, which method is/was the best approach is very much debatable but given the stuff regarding injuries that were recited to me (and then posted on the forum) it seems that the run, run, run mentality probably contributed to the last coach’s leaving.

Going to be interesting to compare players /  team distance covered vs last season. 

[east lower]

8 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Going to be interesting to compare players /  team distance covered vs last season. 

You’ll probably find that there’s not going to much difference on the pitch in those stats. 
 

If we lose games in the second half repeatedly then there might be some correlation, but we conceded plenty last season in the last 20 minutes and supposedly were fit. Injuries might be a better comparison?

 

 

 

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

See the link, one-by-one more will come out as regards what was happening under the last coach. 
 

Now, which method is/was the best approach is very much debatable but given the stuff regarding injuries that were recited to me (and then posted on the forum) it seems that the run, run, run mentality probably contributed to the last coach’s leaving.

Bit of double standards here. You were quick to post that you don’t buy into players being upset when a manager leaves, as it often happens. Yet, behind quotes like this from players when it implies a lack of tactics/coaching ( which also often happens)

They either both have some merit or neither do. 

[east lower]

48 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Bit of double standards here. You were quick to post that you don’t buy into players being upset when a manager leaves, as it often happens. Yet, behind quotes like this from players when it implies a lack of tactics/coaching ( which also often happens)

They either both have some merit or neither do. 

Not really. On the basis that platitudes are cheap and offered by the many on a departure. 

The negatives take a while longer and creep out when the dust settles.

As an example:

Now, I have no idea what sector you operate in but in the sector I work in most sign the leaving card wishing the leaver well and saying how much they will miss them, when a good few don’t mean it at all and then go on to actively provide plenty of negatives once what they believe to be an appropriate amount of time has passed.

It’s judging which have merit and which are idle gossip or come from someone with a personal axe to grind, which is where experience and knowledge come to bear.

And I rarely, if ever have ‘double-standards’ in life or business.

Edited July 8 by east lower

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, east lower said:

You’ll probably find that there’s not going to much difference on the pitch in those stats. 
 

If we lose games in the second half repeatedly then there might be some correlation, but we conceded plenty last season in the last 20 minutes and supposedly were fit. Injuries might be a better comparison?

 

 

 

More inclined to see the performance with or without Enzo. 

tried to search a on km per games for Leicester, but without any success. 

Not sure a new version of sarriball will mean the players have to be at the highest fitness level. 

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, east lower said:

See the link, one-by-one more will come out as regards what was happening under the last coach. 
 

Now, which method is/was the best approach is very much debatable but given the stuff regarding injuries that were recited to me (and then posted on the forum) it seems that the run, run, run mentality probably contributed to the last coach’s leaving.

63pts, domestic cup semi final and final and finishing above 6th should be the minimum bar for the new coach, especially as he’s got all the game changers available, which the previous coach never had. 

[Mark Kelly]

17 minutes ago, ROTG said:

63pts, domestic cup semi final and final and finishing above 6th should be the minimum bar for the new coach, especially as he’s got all the game changers available, which the previous coach never had. 

Not to mention the tactical acumen the previous coach didn't have. 

[ROTG]

17 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Not to mention the tactical acumen the previous coach didn't have. 

As I have said many times winning an additional 4 games should be a stroll in the park. 
 

don’t you agree?

[Ham]

38 minutes ago, ROTG said:

63pts, domestic cup semi final and final and finishing above 6th should be the minimum bar for the new coach, especially as he’s got all the game changers available, which the previous coach never had. 

 

1 minute ago, ROTG said:

As I have said many times winning an additional 4 games should be a stroll in the park. 
 

don’t you agree?

How many times are you going to post this, almost word for word?

[east lower]

41 minutes ago, ROTG said:

More inclined to see the performance with or without Enzo. 

tried to search a on km per games for Leicester, but without any success. 

Not sure a new version of sarriball will mean the players have to be at the highest fitness level. 

FWIW I thought we looked to have  a better balanced midfield when he didn’t play at the end of the season and also when he missed a couple of games around the time of the League Cup Final. 

I posted on here that during the season, that I think the PL might just be too quick for him and he’s no Fabregas as yet (the latter was far from quick also), both in passing skill or intelligence.

BUT…………..I’ll reserve my judgement (that ain’t worth much, in the grand scheme of things) until I see him play fit and with a coach that has a pattern of play that he can fit into. Whether that’s his namesake, I really don’t have a clue as I’ve not seen enough to make any judgement. I am hopeful but, at this stage that’s wishful thinking as opposed reasoned judgement.