Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Ham]

25 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I think I've landed on a critical messaging error Poch has made so far. He's explicitly made clear that he is aiming for nothing short of us winning the title this season - he's never tempered expectations by saying we should aim for top four or even top six this season, for example, and build from there.

At first I liked this optimistic attitude. Now he is now making excuses for why we are not winning when we are clearly so far off the pace it's untrue. Incredibly hypocritical to say "we don't have time to waste thinking about the future; we need to perform today!" and then now, we can't perform today because our players aren't fit.

Even if we had all our players fit, talking up the title so much seems absolutely deluded in hindsight. Maybe the fans wouldn't be so expectant if he hadn't hyped up our chances so much and given us such false hope.

 

 

If the press had specifically asked "where would you like to finish this season?" and he answered "4th" or "when will you win trophies?" and he said "25/26" he'd have been slaughtered. 

You know how clickbait works, surely? 

 

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Ham said:

If the press had specifically asked "where would you like to finish this season?" and he answered "4th" or "when will you win trophies?" and he said "25/26" he'd have been slaughtered. 

You know how clickbait works, surely? 

 

They are definitely picking their questions carefully and nine times out of ten they're leading questions trying to provoke him into looking stupid when to be honest at times he's doing it to himself. 

[Thiago97]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

I think I've landed on a critical messaging error Poch has made so far. He's explicitly made clear that he is aiming for nothing short of us winning the title this season - he's never tempered expectations by saying we should aim for top four or even top six this season, for example, and build from there.

At first I liked this optimistic attitude. Now he is now making excuses for why we are not winning when we are clearly so far off the pace it's untrue. Incredibly hypocritical to say "we don't have time to waste thinking about the future; we need to perform today!" and then now, we can't perform today because our players aren't fit.

Even if we had all our players fit, talking up the title so much seems absolutely deluded in hindsight. Maybe the fans wouldn't be so expectant if he hadn't hyped up our chances so much and given us such false hope.

 

 

You really need to take a step back and just have some patience and time to see how things progress.  We all agree that it’s not been a great start , and we can all see some clubs /managers have adjusted much quicker in their evolution than we have right now. The managers needs to improve on some things, the players need to improve on a few things. 
The problem I have with all this is it’s so predictable. The two most opposing voices for Poch getting the job were you and Gurj. So it’s not really a surprise to be hearing a fair bit from both of you right now , and after only a handful of games. 
You may end up being right about Poch in the medium to long term, but you are not right as we speak now. Give yourself some time, give the players some time and give the manager some time.

We will have a far better idea of how/if  we are progressing under Poch closer to Xmas.  Speaking from a personal perspective, your current criticisms hold little credence for me, cos they are exactly what I expected from you and Gurj off the back of a slow start. That don’t mean they are completely irrelevant, it just means they mean little now , as it’s not objective. It’s a narrative to fit the headline already created in your head. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Thiago97

[Sciatika]

@Max Fowler Did you want Poch to say that he isn't bothered about winning? You know months could mean more than a year.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

You really need to take a step back and just have some patience and time to see how things progress.  We all agree that it’s not been a great start , and we can all see some clubs /managers have adjusted much quicker in their evolution than we have right now. The managers needs to improve on some things, the players need to improve on a few things. 
The problem I have with all this is it’s so predictable. The two most opposing voices for Poch getting the job were you and Gurj. So it’s not really a surprise to be hearing a fair bit from both of you right now , and after only a handful of games. 
You may end up being right about Poch in the medium to long term, but you are not right as we speak now. Give yourself some time, give the players some time and give the manager some time.

We will have a far better idea of how/if  we are progressing under Poch closer to Xmas.  Speaking from a personal perspective, your current criticisms hold little credence for me, cos they are exactly what I expected from you and Gurj off the back of a slow start. That don’t mean they are completely irrelevant, it just means they mean little now , as it’s not objective. It’s a narrative to fit the headline already created in your head. 

That sounds good on paper but the vast majority of my criticisms are levelled at the board, not at Potterchino.

We've given him next to no chance of succeeding with our dreadfully imbalanced and inexperienced squad.

I am not even really behind "Poch out" because I don't know where we go from here. Maybe De Zerbi.

I am mainly behind holding this board to account now. If that means booing the team off the pitch - so be it.

[Max Fowler]

55 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

@Max Fowler Did you want Poch to say that he isn't bothered about winning? You know months could mean more than a year.

I really like Poch talking up winning and I know his English isn't the best. But talking up the league is farcical right now. Especially when there is such a disconnect between what he is saying before the game and the excuses he is making after.

Unsurprisingly, I liked the way Tuchel framed it: 

‘I don’t want to limit our expectations right now. At the same time I don’t want to put too much pressure on us. We are a team in transition still. For me it is possible in both directions so we should be humble and try hard to be the best version of ourselves.’

[Max Fowler]

3 hours ago, Ham said:

If the press had specifically asked "where would you like to finish this season?" and he answered "4th" or "when will you win trophies?" and he said "25/26" he'd have been slaughtered. 

You know how clickbait works, surely? 

 

There's ways of avoiding the question or reframing it. And it's how he follows up after Bournemouth that is most alarming:

"Because of expectations. I think the fans know if you invest the type of money, there is expectation. What I can tell the fans is the circumstance, I cannot change the reality.

For me, nothing to say, the fans can do this.

With all of the squad fit we can compete, we don't have all of the squad available, what can we do?

12 injured today, three of four youngs guys, two keepers on the bench, I am going to cry, I am going to complain, to who?"

Come off it Poch. 

After all the pointing to us making no excuses, this is really hypocritical. 

No apology for how we played? No reassurance to the fans? Not a great media display at all.

[Ham]

51 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

 

We've given him next to no chance of succeeding with our dreadfully imbalanced and inexperienced squad.

 

Say it 30 time a day. Doesn't make it even remotely true. 

We have a balanced squad. Fact. 

[Mark Kelly]

27 minutes ago, Ham said:

Say it 30 time a day. Doesn't make it even remotely true. 

We have a balanced squad. Fact. 

We do once the injured players are back absolutely, players in depth for every position. 

[Max Fowler]

32 minutes ago, Ham said:

Say it 30 time a day. Doesn't make it even remotely true. 

We have a balanced squad. Fact. 

We have zero experience in midfield. Gallagher is our only senior with over 100 appearances. 

Of our six players aged 25 and over - only two feature across the entire midfield and attack.

We rely on two injury prone experienced players - Reece and Nkunku, to save our bacon.

We have spent 300 million on centre midfielders and 32 million on centre forwards.

How is that not imbalanced?

[Ham]

26 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

We have zero experience in midfield. Gallagher is our only senior with over 100 appearances. 

Of our six players aged 25 and over - only two feature across the entire midfield and attack.

We rely on two injury prone experienced players - Reece and Nkunku, to save our bacon.

We have spent 300 million on centre midfielders and 32 million on centre forwards.

How is that not imbalanced?

Even your numbers are made up to suit. We already had Nkunku paid for and Broja on the books from the academy. We've also bought other forwards/AMs. 

We spent big on our midfield because we sold our entire midfield. 

 

 

[martin1905]

12 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

We keep hearing about the chances we make , but every single team who plays against us has better quality chances than we engineer for ourselves , every chance we have is a half chance a snatched effort , I can't remember the last time we had a one on one goal opportunity for our striker to slot home , everything is difficult , everybody else's chances are a breeze. 

Exactly this.

The chances we miss, no matter how many times people want to post the stats are not that clear cut and the same people completely ignore the fact that it happens in football and happens against us every game.

I can't remember that many chances we have had this season's where we really should have scored, it can't be that many as we've only played 5 games.

I've already asked twice and been ignored both times, although understand some skip some people's posts and that's fine but I'll try a third time.

What are all these chances that we should have been scoring from? And on the flip side what about the opposition in the same game?

Edited September 18, 2023 by martin1905

[Thiago97]

9 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Exactly this.

The chances we miss, no matter how many times people want to post the stats are not that clear cut and the same people completely ignore the fact that it happens in football and happens against us every game.

I can't remember that many chances we have had this season's where we really should have scored, it can't be that many as we've only played 5 games.

I've already asked twice and been ignored both times,. although understand some skip some people's posts and that's fine but I'll try a third time.

What are all these chances that we should have been scoring from? And on the flip side what about the opposition in the same game?

Well I think I have touched on this. It’s not just the actual chance, it’s often the chance does not materialise cos we mess it up in the build up.

We had two good chances yesterday. Gallagher shot that was saved , could have done better as it was a great height and not on the corner, and Jackson header where he didn’t react, yet still got it on target and should have done better.

I do kinda agree with you though. Not many keepers have great games against us these days, but for me the main problem is the final stages of the build up. This is where the shocking decision making , final ball , and often unwillingness to shoot costs us.  An example of this yesterday, it was either a bad pass by Gallagher or a heavy touch by Jackson in the first half. The momentum was lost and move broke down without an effort on goal. This happens time and time again. I’m sure it does to other teams too, but not as often as it seems to happen for us. 

[boratsbrother]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

We do once the injured players are back absolutely, players in depth for every position. 

Where are the proven Premier League goal scores in our squad? We have one and he is nowhere near the goal threat he was at his two previous clubs. Where are the proven Premier League creative midfielders? We have none! Where are the proven Premier League goal scoring midfielders? We have none! We have depth in numbers but at this moment in time we are severely lacking  where it counts most...QUALITY.

I'm hopeful that will change as these player gain experience, but hope is all there is at the moment. But I'm ok with that, because I accept this massive, completely unprecendented overhaul of a top club is going to take time before we start seeing significant improvements. 

 

 

[Ham]

11 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Exactly this.

The chances we miss, no matter how many times people want to post the stats are not that clear cut and the same people completely ignore the fact that it happens in football and happens against us every game.

I can't remember that many chances we have had this season's where we really should have scored, it can't be that many as we've only played 5 games.

I've already asked twice and been ignored both times,. although understand some skip some people's posts and that's fine but I'll try a third time.

What are all these chances that we should have been scoring from? And on the flip side what about the opposition in the same game?

Off the top of my head, with no research;

1) Enzo penalty miss

2) Chilwell passing instead of shooting.

3) Jackson's inexplicable miss over the bar from point blank v Forest 

4) An amalgamation of other multiple instances where we pass instead of shooting on the edge of the oppo box. So many of them that they merit a place on the list

5) Enzo into the near post side netting.

6) Gallagher miss from close range yesterday.  Keeper should have been given no chance.

7 Jackson scuffing his shot and hitting the post yesterday. Struck properly it's a goal.  

I'm sure we had good chances v Liverpool but my memory is hazy on the game. 

Can anyone help with others?

[martin1905]

2 minutes ago, Ham said:

Off the top of my head, with no research;

1) Enzo penalty miss

2) Chilwell passing instead of shooting.

3) Jackson's inexplicable miss over the bar from point blank v Forest 

4) An amalgamation of other multiple instances where we pass instead of shooting on the edge of the oppo box. So many of them that they merit a place on the list

5) Enzo into the near post side netting.

6) Gallagher miss from close range yesterday.  Keeper should have been given no chance.

7 Jackson scuffing his shot and hitting the post yesterday. Struck properly it's a goal.  

I'm sure we had good chances v Liverpool but my memory is hazy on the game. 

Can anyone help with others?

So just as I thought. A missed a penalty, which is what it is and Jackson's sitter, which is the only one I'd say he absolutely should have scored from.

[martin1905]

10 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I do kinda agree with you though. Not many keepers have great games against us these days, but for me the main problem is the final stages of the build up. This is where the shocking decision making , final ball , and often unwillingness to shoot costs us.  An example of this yesterday, it was either a bad pass by Gallagher or a heavy touch by Jackson in the first half. The momentum was lost and move broke down without an effort on goal. This happens time and time again. I’m sure it does to other teams too, but not as often as it seems to happen for us. 

This I agree with 100%.

And I think the reason it has happened under Potter and now Pochettino is because neither are good enough.

 

[Max Fowler]

34 minutes ago, Ham said:

Even your numbers are made up to suit. We already had Nkunku paid for and Broja on the books from the academy. We've also bought other forwards/AMs. 

We spent big on our midfield because we sold our entire midfield.

I also left out the fact that our wingers and forwards are incredibly inexperienced to not overcomplicate things.

"We spent big on our midfield because we sold our entire midfield."

Yes, and we didn't spend big in forward areas despite selling our entire forward line.

And despite the fact that our biggest problem is...*drum roll please* you guessed it.... SCORING GOALS.

[Rob B]

2 hours ago, Ham said:

Say it 30 time a day. Doesn't make it even remotely true. 

We have a balanced squad. Fact. 

Not so sure mate.

Talented, high potential, exciting, yes, but not so sure it’s balanced.

We have 5 CB’s (technically six but I won’t include Sarr despite him being listed on the website and still paying his wages) , 3 Left Backs, 6 central midfielders  (if you include Carney.  If you don’t and you class him as an attacker we have three number 10’s)

But yet only two out & out number 9’s.  We don’t really have goals from the attackers (Sterling aside) and we don’t have any experience whatsoever in the front 4 (again except Sterling) 

IMO is is horribly unbalanced and inexperienced.  I do accept though that the potential is huge.  For example and something no one is talking about due to the result, but how Ugochukwu stepped in for his PL debut start, away from home at just 19 years old and performed like that.  Looked incredibly assured, but just doesn’t really solve our immediate problems. 

[Ham]

9 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I also left out the fact that our wingers and forwards are incredibly inexperienced to not overcomplicate things.

"We spent big on our midfield because we sold our entire midfield."

Yes, and we didn't spend big in forward areas despite selling our entire forward line.

And despite the fact that our biggest problem is...*drum roll please* you guessed it.... SCORING GOALS.

We've spent £200m on attackers  excluding players who have gone out on loan. 

Your £32m is a bit disingenuous. 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Ham

[Ham]

16 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

So just as I thought. A missed a penalty, which is what it is and Jackson's sitter, which is the only one I'd say he absolutely should have scored from.

And I completely disagree with you on what should have been goals. 

Where does this leave us?

[Ham]

10 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Not so sure mate.

Talented, high potential, exciting, yes, but not so sure it’s balanced.

We have 5 CB’s (technically six but I won’t include Sarr despite him being listed on the website and still paying his wages) , 3 Left Backs, 6 central midfielders  (if you include Carney.  If you don’t and you class him as an attacker we have three number 10’s)

But yet only two out & out number 9’s.  We don’t really have goals from the attackers (Sterling aside) and we don’t have any experience whatsoever in the front 4 (again except Sterling) 

IMO is is horribly unbalanced and inexperienced.  I do accept though that the potential is huge.  For example and something no one is talking about due to the result, but how Ugochukwu stepped in for his PL debut start, away from home at just 19 years old and performed like that.  Looked incredibly assured, but just doesn’t really solve our immediate problems. 

One of the LBs (Maatsen) is a very good utility player as was shown in pre-season.  He's a great squad asset.

Carney is equally versatile.  I see him as an attacker.  10/LW/second striker even.  

5 CBs but Silva can be discounted looking forward. 

How many out and out number 9s should we have out of interest in amongst the attackers? 

Sorry but I disagree. 

[martin1905]

6 minutes ago, Ham said:

And I completely disagree with you on what should have been goals. 

Where does this leave us?

14th, 5 points from 5 games and playing the same type of football as we did under Graham Potter. 

Not sure how hitting the post from outside the box is now considered a clear cut chance that we should have scored from but there you go.

 

[martin1905]

Just now, Ham said:

One of the LBs (Maatsen) is a very good utility player as was shown in pre-season.  He's a great squad asset.

 

Shame we are going to lose him, for free.

He will probably end up at City and become one of the best left backs in the world.

This one is really going to hurt us.

[Ham]

3 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

14th, 5 points from 5 games and playing the same type of football as we did under Graham Potter. 

Not sure how hitting the post from outside the box is now considered a clear cut chance that we should have scored from but there you go.

 

But we wouldn't be 14th with 5 points if we scored from our chances. That's the point.