Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Max Fowler]

19 minutes ago, Ham said:

We've spent £200m on attackers under TBSD excluding players who have gone out on loan. 

Your £32m is a bit disingenuous. 

 

This summer or overall? Overall we've spent more than that. 

This summer we bought Nkunku for £52 million, Jackson for £32 million, and Palmer for £42.5 million.

That's £126.5 million on all forward players. 

AND we sold our top goalscorer from last season and top creator over the last three seasons.

We bought Lavia for £58 million, Caicedo for £115 million and Ugochukwu for £23.8 million.

That's £196.8 million just on defensive midfielders.

From our previous spending on "forwards", a large percentage of it was on Mudryk, who we saw last season.

Are there any surprises we have seen the same Mudryk already in this campaign?

And again, I repeat, our biggest problem from last season was scoring goals.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Ham]

3 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Shame we are going to lose him, for free.

He will probably end up at City and become one of the best left backs in the world.

This one is really going to hurt us.

Getting bent out of shape with things that haven't happened?

You really are grumpy this week, even by your standards. 

[Ham]

3 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

This summer or overall? Overall we've spent more than that. 

This summer we bought Nkunku for £52 million, Jackson for £32 million, and Palmer for £42.5 million.

That's £126.5 million on all forward players. 

AND we sold our top goalscorer from last season and top creator over the last three seasons.

We bought Lavia for £58 million, Caicedo for £115 million and Ugochukwu for £23.8 million.

That's £196.8 million just on defensive midfielders.

From our previous spending on "forwards", a large percentage of it was on Mudryk, who we saw last season.

Are there any surprises we have seen the same Mudryk already in this campaign?

And again, I repeat, our biggest problem from last season was scoring goals.

Why are you only counting this window?

Sterling? Madueke? Mudryk of course. 

Again, no offence to you, Martin and various others but I don't physically have the energy to continue with multiple back and forths at this rate. 

I have my opinions and I'm happy with them. 

I won't be swayed on this so I'll leave it there. 

 

[martin1905]

1 minute ago, Ham said:

Getting bent out of shape with things that haven't happened?

You really are grumpy this week, even by your standards. 

I'm not getting bent out of shape.

And I certainly haven't been grumpy, just see things differently to you and that's ok.

I very much doubt Maatsen is going to sign a new contract and believe he will go onto much bigger and better things. Of all our youth players that we have lost I think he has the highest ceiling.

He's not a utility man, he's a left back. The fact that Pochettino suddenly sees him as a utility man, whilst playing a centre half in his position will just make his decision to leave easier.

 

[Max Fowler]

2 minutes ago, Ham said:

Why are you only counting this window?

Sterling? Madueke? Mudryk of course. 

Again, no offence to you, Martin and various others but I don't physically have the energy to continue with multiple back and forths at this rate. 

I have my opinions and I'm happy with them. 

I won't be swayed on this so I'll leave it there. 

 

Because then I could also bring up the vast amounts of money we have spent on defenders over previous windows.

But I understand Ham, happy to respectful disagree on that one.

---

In other news, I am worried our board has little ability to spot injury prone players. 

Madueke, Nkunku and W. Fofana are just three examples who have a poor injury history.

When speaking about forwards, if 2 of our 6 options are injury prone we are in trouble.

[martin1905]

37 minutes ago, Ham said:

But we wouldn't be 14th with 5 points if we scored from our chances. That's the point.

 

 

Literally every single club could say the same.

There's a few on here that keep banging on about the statistics that prove we could and perhaps should be higher up the table, had we have taken our chances yet the reality, from my perspective is, that we haven't had that many clear cut chances. Your list, although not exhaustive, just reiterates it for me.

You say you don't have the energy to go back and forth and I respect that, I have no problem with a difference in opinion and apologize if I've come across as grumpy as I don't mean to but I  have got to the stage, after over 12 months of watching utter rubbish, I really can't see much difference between this season and last and looking at the seven games we have coming up, starting at Arsenal I think we will be in serious trouble by early December that at I don't have the energy to carry on being so invested in this club. Physically, emotionally and financially. I've given up my season ticket for the year, first time I won't be going regularly for 20+ years. 

The owners, no doubt take some of the responsibility for where we are but I, like you I believe, thought we had a tremendous transfer window, both in terms of incomings and outgoings. I really expected us to hit the ground running, a bit like Tottenham I hate to say, after being very impressed in pre season yet it's the same old same old and for me it's a far bigger problem than just not taking our chances.

It might seem too early or knee jerk from me but I was completely anti Pochettino when we hired Potter but was very much swayed by others when we bought him in to replace Graham.

I'm not calling for his head and on the one hand think we may as well keep him as our hopes of finishing top 4 are already gone so give him the time to do his thing, he does have a history of working with and building a very good team from young players. If he stays and we give him enough time I'm fine with that.

On the other hand I think, whilst there has been a real lack of quality managers about over the last few years there's a very special one,  undoubtedly destined for much better things, the first potential elite manager to come around for a while that we should, at least think about, being brutal and do everything we can to get him. If we don't I can see  him almost certainly ending up at City and we will be kicking ourselves. It took me a little while to be convinced by De Zebri but I think there can be little doubt now, he is the one.

 

[Max Fowler]

Poch is on a two year contract. I actually see it as much more feasible at this stage that he could be sacked than Potter at the beginning of his reign. In which case, I'm not too worried about Poch. But my eyes are on De Zerbi.

[Michael Tucker]

4 hours ago, martin1905 said:

 It took me a little while to be convinced by De Zebri but I think there can be little doubt now, he is the one.

Yes, he is. Way in front of Poch.

[Max Fowler]

I fully believe this situation is not really Poch's fault - 90% is on the owners, but he should never have joined without the promise of immediate experience and investment in our forward line.

The owners will gladly let him fall on his sword to save their face, and build more excitement among the fans with new signings and by activating De Zerbi's release clause at the end of the season. 

[Michael Tucker]

7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I fully believe this situation is not really Poch's fault - 90% is on the owners, but he should never have joined without the promise of immediate experience and investment in our forward line.

Sorry mate, but of course it's his fault! The man is way out of his depth.

[ROTG]

29 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

De Zerbi's release clause at the end of the season. 

Doubt It - would not be surprised to see him at ManUre before the end of the season - IF he is the next best thing since sunblest

[ROTG]

23 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

Sorry mate, but of course it's his fault! The man is way out of his depth.

He is only as good as the tools he been given

[xceleryx]

4 hours ago, martin1905 said:

<snip>

 It took me a little while to be convinced by De Zebri but I think there can be little doubt now, he is the one.

How do you think raiding Brighton yet again would go down? 

I've rated De Zerbi highly for awhile having seen what he did with Sassuolo, and outside of Postecoglou he'd have been next in line when it came to replacing Tuchel, however it does pay to note he is benefiting by the three years of foundation work created by Potter beforehand. Without that ground work in place the immediate heights they've hit under De Zerbi may not have come about in the fashion it has. 

Would any more patience be shown if our current performances/results were had under him? I'm not so sure. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by xceleryx
Gramatical correction.

[Bison]

3 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Poch is on a two year contract. I actually see it as much more feasible at this stage that he could be sacked than Potter at the beginning of his reign. In which case, I'm not too worried about Poch. But my eyes are on De Zerbi.

Never happening in a million years. De Zerbi is destined for bigger and better things. 

The trick is finding a De Zerbi before they have better options but we're simply too stupid of a club to ever get something like that right. So it'll be a busted flush like Pochettino and the managerial merry-go-round continues.

[Thiago97]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

How do you think raiding Brighton yet again would go down? 

I've rated De Zerbi highly for awhile having seen what he did with Sassuolo, and outside of Postecoglou he'd have been next in line when it came to replacing Tuchel, however it does pay to note he is benefiting by the three years of foundation work created by Potter beforehand. Without that ground work in place the immediate heights they've hit under De Zerbi may not have come about in the fashion it has. 

Would any more patience be shown if our current performances/results were had under him? I'm not so sure. 

This really is conveniently overlooked. De Zerbi has done a fantastic job, but he walked into a great set up with very good players and a rock solid foundation in place. He has taken that onto another level so far. 
It’s unlikely he joins Chelsea with such a solid foundation in place. He could come here and struggle to impose himself much how Potter did in his first 20-25 games…….:we would have the same people moaning that the club is too big for him, or that he is out of his depth.

Unless he hits the ground running almost instantly.

For all the good work De Zerbi has done. He also knows deep down that he walked into a fantastic job with mid level expectations. 

[martin1905]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

How do you think raiding Brighton yet again would go down? 

Don't think anyone would care. They are the new blueprint, even more so than City.

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I've rated De Zerbi highly for awhile having seen what he did with Sassuolo, and outside of Postecoglou he'd have been next in line when it came to replacing Tuchel, however it does pay to note he is benefiting by the three years of foundation work created by Potter beforehand. Without that ground work in place the immediate heights they've hit under De Zerbi may not have come about in the fashion it has. 

De Zebri's Brighton has literally zero similarities to Potters. I've seen Potters groundwork first hand and can't say I was too impressed. Even what he did at Brighton was massively overplayed, mostly by the media and I said so when we were first linked with him, even though I wanted him it wasn't because of what he did at Brighton which was average at best. Took a team, who's previous two seasons ended with 40 and 36 points and took them to 41,41, 51. Goals scored 39, 40, 42.

To say he laid the groundwork for De Zebri is undermining what De Zebri has done there and there is no comparison between the two sides. The real job at Brighton was done by Chris Houghton, took them up and kept them in the premier league for two years. That's real groundwork.

It is possible for a manger to come in, completely rip up the previous blue print and start again, there's countless examples, Postecoglou being a very good, very recent one. 

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Would any more patience be shown if our current performances/results were had under him? I'm not so sure. 

It's not just about the results though. Like it or not, part of it is because of his Tottenham connections, a lot of people I know, regular match goers, didn't want him because of it. It was bought up on here that if we didn't start well he wouldn't be given that much time and we are starting to see it. It's also about decisions. You keep getting simple decisions wrong and you paint a massive target on your  back. It's also about performances, we have been poor and I see very little difference from last year. I hear the same excuses, mostly not taking our chances and injuries but see very little difference in the level of our performances.

I've said I'm not calling for his head and happy to give him time. The whole reason I am talking about it is that we can't rule anything out in the modern game. We had a very 'friendly' first 8 games and the next 7, after Burnley are Arsenal, Brentford, Tottenham, City, Newcastle, Brighton and United. It's absolute horrendous and we really could be looking at around 10-15 points after 15 games. I don't think anyone can say with any real conviction that they expect us to win very many, if any of those games. It's why a good start wasn't just important it was imperative.

Villa is massive, if we can pull off a shock we then have Fulham and Burnley before that run so a chance to get a bit of confidence beforehand.

[martin1905]

17 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

This really is conveniently overlooked. De Zerbi has done a fantastic job, but he walked into a great set up with very good players and a rock solid foundation in place. He has taken that onto another level so far. 
It’s unlikely he joins Chelsea with such a solid foundation in place. He could come here and struggle to impose himself much how Potter did in his first 20-25 games…….:we would have the same people moaning that the club is too big for him, or that he is out of his depth.

Unless he hits the ground running almost instantly.

For all the good work De Zerbi has done. He also knows deep down that he walked into a fantastic job with mid level expectations. 

I'm not so sure about what De Zebri walked into, although agree he did take over a club with a solid foundation with mid level expectations.

If you look at Potters Brighton like I and others do, and obviously you don't but I don't want to go round in circles arguing about pointless things, then it is possible that De Zebri has taken over an average, mid table club, who seriously struggled to score goals and turned them into one of the best footballing sides in the premier league and in with a real chance of qualifying for the champions league. 

There are other, very recent, examples of this. Howe at Newcastle, Emery at Villa, Postecoglou at Tottenham, even Roy Hodgson made an immediate impact. All coming in and pretty much instantly turning the club's around and I doubt anyone thinks it had much to do with the previous set up at those clubs.

[Mark Kelly]

3 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I'm not so sure about what De Zebri walked into, although agree he did take over a club with a solid foundation with mid level expectations.

If you look at Potters Brighton like I and others do, and obviously you don't but I don't want to go round in circles arguing about pointless things, then it is possible that De Zebri has taken over an average, mid table club, who seriously struggled to score goals and turned them into one of the best footballing sides in the premier league and in with a real chance of qualifying for the champions league. 

There are other, very recent, examples of this. Howe at Newcastle, Emery at Villa, Postecoglou at Tottenham, even Roy Hodgson made an immediate impact. All coming in and pretty much instantly turning the club's around and I doubt anyone thinks it had much to do with the previous set up at those clubs.

In fairness and in partial mitigation for Pochettino , Howe , Emery , Postecoglou and Hodgson didn't rock up to a club with a completely new players in every single position there was a level of consistency and familiarity in the ranks which was not afforded to Poch other than an old man in defence and a half decent but jaded wing forward up front.

I think a lot of our malaise is on Poch but he's trying to hit the ground running with a bunch of strangers and I think he is actually trying to make us hard to beat and a defensive unit before he tackles the rest which is kind of coaching 1:1 in the manual as eye bleedingly awful as it is to watch, hence the comments about the wing backs overlapping too much (which I presume was taken out of context to a degree anyway)

[Thiago97]

6 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I'm not so sure about what De Zebri walked into, although agree he did take over a club with a solid foundation with mid level expectations.

If you look at Potters Brighton like I and others do, and obviously you don't but I don't want to go round in circles arguing about pointless things, then it is possible that De Zebri has taken over an average, mid table club, who seriously struggled to score goals and turned them into one of the best footballing sides in the premier league and in with a real chance of qualifying for the champions league. 

There are other, very recent, examples of this. Howe at Newcastle, Emery at Villa, Postecoglou at Tottenham, even Roy Hodgson made an immediate impact. All coming in and pretty much instantly turning the club's around and I doubt anyone thinks it had much to do with the previous set up at those clubs.

I doubt think anyone doubts De Zerbi has had a significant impact. Everyone agrees that Brighton are a much better team under De Zerbi. However, it’s also a massive help to follow a manager who done a good job there over 3 seasons. Potter came here and had zero positive impact, but that don’t mean he didn’t do a good job at Brighton.

The big difference with the examples you have provided. They followed a terrible manager ( Bruce) or they followed managers who had clearly lost the dressing room and made the place toxic ( Gerrard , Conte ) . They most certainly have turned those clubs around , but they walked into desperate outfits at the time, and were starting from a very low base in terms of morale, and in Newcastle\Villa specifically, a very low level of coaching was actually going on. 
 

De Zerbi didn’t walk into anything like this scenario. I was also need to state I am not knocking De Zerbi in any way. He has done fantastic , as he did at Sassuaolo. I’m just pointing out he came into a great set up and a team that was ready to go up another level, with the right manager in place.  Maybe there are similarities here, but the foundation here is somewhat unsteady. 

[ROTG]

Is it time to start a thread on the next Chelsea Head Coach?

[Michael Tucker]

4 hours ago, ROTG said:

He is only as good as the tools he been given

Wherever he's been it's been the same story. The excuses keep coming, but he's out of his depth, and he should be out the door.

[Thiago97]

11 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Is it time to start a thread on the next Chelsea Head Coach?

It would massively help if people could see and separate their frustrations of the last 18 months, with their frustrations of the last 6 weeks. 
It seems blindingly obvious to me that many are not doing this. 

[xceleryx]

16 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Don't think anyone would care. They are the new blueprint, even more so than City.

I mean, I think people would care to a degree given the reaction to those we've already poached away. 

16 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

De Zebri's Brighton has literally zero similarities to Potters. I've seen Potters groundwork first hand and can't say I was too impressed. Even what he did at Brighton was massively overplayed, mostly by the media and I said so when we were first linked with him, even though I wanted him it wasn't because of what he did at Brighton which was average at best. Took a team, who's previous two seasons ended with 40 and 36 points and took them to 41,41, 51. Goals scored 39, 40, 42.

To say he laid the groundwork for De Zebri is undermining what De Zebri has done there and there is no comparison between the two sides. The real job at Brighton was done by Chris Houghton, took them up and kept them in the premier league for two years. That's real groundwork.

It is possible for a manger to come in, completely rip up the previous blue print and start again, there's countless examples, Postecoglou being a very good, very recent one. 

Never suggested they had similarities in fairness. Plenty of Brighton fans had seen Potter's groundwork first hand also, and many acknowledge the role he's played in allowing De Zerbi to expand on and elevate that further.  You suggesting they're wrong? By what you've said I think you're misinterpreting what foundations actually entail, and instead focusing more on what's been displayed at face value. I'm not even someone that wanted Potter in the first place, and he was completely out of his depth here, but he established a lot of fundamental qualities into Brighton that's allowed someone like De Zerbi to step in and be as impressive has he has been. 

Houghton was big also, and this was something I was going to mention as well earlier but figured it's probably not quite as relevant as Potter. But yes, Houghton did well getting them into the Premier League and keeping them up. Potter came in and built on that himself, then De Zerbi has done similar since he arrived. Brighton have been, and are, a well run club. They've shown patience, purchased well, and then hired complimentary managers that fit within the framework they've instilled. There's continuity, something completely foreign to us here at Chelsea. 

34 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

It's not just about the results though. Like it or not, part of it is because of his Tottenham connections, a lot of people I know, regular match goers, didn't want him because of it. It was bought up on here that if we didn't start well he wouldn't be given that much time and we are starting to see it. It's also about decisions. You keep getting simple decisions wrong and you paint a massive target on your  back. It's also about performances, we have been poor and I see very little difference from last year. I hear the same excuses, mostly not taking our chances and injuries but see very little difference in the level of our performances.

I've said I'm not calling for his head and happy to give him time. The whole reason I am talking about it is that we can't rule anything out in the modern game. We had a very 'friendly' first 8 games and the next 7, after Burnley are Arsenal, Brentford, Tottenham, City, Newcastle, Brighton and United. It's absolute horrendous and we really could be looking at around 10-15 points after 15 games. I don't think anyone can say with any real conviction that they expect us to win very many, if any of those games. It's why a good start wasn't just important it was imperative.

Villa is massive, if we can pull off a shock we then have Fulham and Burnley before that run so a chance to get a bit of confidence beforehand.

Well yes, there's obviously some external factors that meant premature opinions were already established because of Poch's history with Tottenham. That said, my question was more geared towards the notion that if everything that's transpired this season so far had done so under say De Zerbi, would the moans and groans still be as loud as they are? And more importantly, would we be willing to show greater patience through such a period? 

Obviously I want us to perform well, win as many games as we can, and finish as high as we can up the table, but there's also such a larger scope for what can be considered improvement than just basing it on league table positions alone. Not everyone is going to see it that way, and that's entirely fine, but for me I've seen positives steps forward so far even if it's not translated into maximum points. If we're like this in another 2-3 years then I'll be less than impressed by all means, but I'm also willing to take the ride for the time being - even if it's bumpy in the short term. 

We'll see how the season plays out one way or another.

[martin1905]

3 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

 Obviously I want us to perform well, win as many games as we can, and finish as high as we can up the table, but there's also such a larger scope for what can be considered improvement than just basing it on league table positions alone. Not everyone is going to see it that way, and that's entirely fine, but for me I've seen positives steps forward so far even if it's not translated into maximum points. If we're like this in another 2-3 years then I'll be less than impressed by all means, but I'm also willing to take the ride for the time being - even if it's bumpy in the short term. 

We'll see how the season plays out one way or another.

I don't think anyone has moaned, solely about our points or league position and think most people could see what is confident improvement, if it was there.

Enlighten us though and what you have seen that you consider improvement as all I see is the same or very similar slow, turgid football with too many defensively minded players, too many defenders full stop where we look utterly clueless at most things. At least last year we were pretty sound defensively. This year we look like the opposition will score every time they break, even the manager has admitted that our most experienced, one of the  best of his generation centre back has been confused, that our full backs are attacking too much and he couldn't do anything about it.

This is opposition that barely get forward but when they do they either score or at least look like they know what they are doing and are a threat every time they get into our final third, which is ironic as your one of the big pushers of if we had taken our chances stats which doesn't even consider the other teams chances.

We pretty much keep the ball between the defenders and deep lying midfield, go left to right, to left to right, to back to left to right and so on. 

When we do get forward there is not much there. No one making forward runs or full backs overlapping no one trying to pull defenders out the way, no through balls, no quick transition, no one two's, no build up play whatsoever.

All very similar to Potter. Loads of possession, zero cutting edge and all the same excuses are being made about injuries and our poor finishing as last year. It's very déjà vu.

I can't say this enough, I'm not advocating for him to get the sack but he will have to improve, massively , by the 8th December, one day after United to still be in a job. I really don't think it can be stated enough just how tough the games we have coming up are.

I don't want us to sack him, I don't think he should be sacked but, judging by our current performances I think he will be gone by Christmas, unless something drastic changes.

[martin1905]

We all hope the club learn from their mistakes.

Not sure which was the bigger, sacking Tuchel or hiring Potter or giving him as much time as they did. In those instances they have shown an element of brutality and empathy. They have shown they are not afraid to get rid of someone but also prepared to give someone time, too much time in Potters case.

My point being, it really doesn't matter what any of us think, if things don't improve the club will act. It's easy to make excuses, like injuries and failing to convert our chances but that didn't help Potter.

I'm going to make an over optimistic prediction about our next ten games, I have no idea how many points it would leave us on whilst I write it.

Villa (h) W

Fulham (a) D

Burnley (a) W

Arsenal (h) L

Brentford (h) W

Tottenham (a) D

City (h) L

Newcastle (a) D

Brighton (h) D

United (a) W

That would give us 16 points, 21 in total after 15 games and on course to teach 53 points for the season. 

Now, I don't think we will get through that run of games winning 4 or only loosing twice but as I say, I was being overly optimistic.

I hope you can now see where my worry comes from. Of course making predictions is silly and anything could happen but with the evidence we currently have I don't think it's unfair to suggest 16 points from that run of games is pessimistic.

Again, this was always happening which was why we had to get off to a good start, our first 8 games were very kind, the next 7 just about as tough as they could make it. We had to be in a healthy position, points wise, playing well with a settled system, style, formation, tactics, everything. We are not.

With everything being said, with the decisions these owners have made does anyone really think there is not a high possibility that he won't be here by Christmas, not what you think SHOULD happen but what COULD.

Edited September 19, 2023 by martin1905