Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Thiago97]

31 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

We all hope the club learn from their mistakes.

Not sure which was the bigger, sacking Tuchel or hiring Potter or giving him as much time as they did. In those instances they have shown an element of brutality and empathy. They have shown they are not afraid to get rid of someone but also prepared to give someone time, too much time in Potters case.

My point being, it really doesn't matter what any of us think, if things don't improve the club will act. It's easy to make excuses, like injuries and failing to convert our chances but that didn't help Potter.

I'm going to make an over optimistic prediction about our next ten games, I have no idea how many points it would leave us on whilst I write it.

 

I do wonder if the bold bit is the crux of why you feel so deflated with the club right now. You have a history of making these predictions, but with respect, keep getting them wrong. That's not meant as a dig, but more a case of a realignment of expectations for Chelsea and its players are required for now, alongside a more objective view of our opponents. It may help.

Just to elaborate further. I would consider myself a semi pro gambler on horse racing. Sometimes I can be waiting weeks for a horse to run, because I have formed this opinion that the horse has loads of untapped potential. Sometimes they win and meet those expectations, often they don't. It can become very painful when that happens and easy to become deflated. So as I said, its not a dig as I have experienced something very similar myself , but its amazing what a less forthright view and realignment of expectations can do. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Thiago97

[martin1905]

2 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

I do wonder if the bold bit is the crux of why you feel so deflated with the club right now. You have a history of making these predictions, but with respect, keep getting them wrong. That's not meant as a dig, but more a case of a realignment of expectations for Chelsea and its players are required for now, alongside a more objective view of our opponents. It may help.

Just to elaborate further. I would consider myself a semi pro gambler on horse racing. Sometimes I can be waiting weeks for a horse to run, because I have formed this opinion that the horse has loads of untapped potential. Sometimes they win and meet those expectations, often they don't. It can become very painful when that happens and easy to become deflated. So as I said, its not a dig as I have experienced something very similar myself , but its amazing what a less forthright view and realignment of expectations can do. 

I'm not afraid to make predictions and happy to be wrong. Most of my over the top, optimistic predictions are of players though, I see the best in literally all our signings. 

When it come to managers I was one of the first to question Conte, Lampard and Potter. Got slated each and every time and look what happened. Was also one of Tuchel's biggest fans and had countless debates on here with those that were questioning him months before we sacked him, again look what's happened to us since.

[xceleryx]

3 hours ago, martin1905 said:

I don't think anyone has moaned, solely about our points or league position and think most people could see what is confident improvement, if it was there.

Enlighten us though and what you have seen that you consider improvement as all I see is the same or very similar slow, turgid football with too many defensively minded players, too many defenders full stop where we look utterly clueless at most things. At least last year we were pretty sound defensively. This year we look like the opposition will score every time they break, even the manager has admitted that our most experienced, one of the  best of his generation centre back has been confused, that our full backs are attacking too much and he couldn't do anything about it.

This is opposition that barely get forward but when they do they either score or at least look like they know what they are doing and are a threat every time they get into our final third, which is ironic as your one of the big pushers of if we had taken our chances stats which doesn't even consider the other teams chances.

We pretty much keep the ball between the defenders and deep lying midfield, go left to right, to left to right, to back to left to right and so on. 

When we do get forward there is not much there. No one making forward runs or full backs overlapping no one trying to pull defenders out the way, no through balls, no quick transition, no one two's, no build up play whatsoever.

All very similar to Potter. Loads of possession, zero cutting edge and all the same excuses are being made about injuries and our poor finishing as last year. It's very déjà vu.

I can't say this enough, I'm not advocating for him to get the sack but he will have to improve, massively , by the 8th December, one day after United to still be in a job. I really don't think it can be stated enough just how tough the games we have coming up are.

I don't want us to sack him, I don't think he should be sacked but, judging by our current performances I think he will be gone by Christmas, unless something drastic changes.

I've already spoken briefly on some of the areas I think we've shown improvement in, and showcased that further with a brief overview of the usual metrics teams get measured against, so it feels redundant to go back over that again when it isn't likely to sway your view point given your fairly entrenched stance on the matter. Which is perfectly fine by the way, not saying I'm trying to convince you otherwise in all this, but the whole topic itself is becoming increasingly fickle and frustrating when we're five games into a new season, with a new manager, more or less an entirely new team, a young one at that, and while missing a hatful of player on top - some more important than others. 

Not trying to paint the illusion that everything is rosy, or that we don't need to improve further in certain aspects, simply feel there's a middle ground in all of this that's being looked over. Maybe that's because there's a struggle to seperate last season to this, purely because of how bad we've been over the last 12-18 months, I don't know. 

But yeah, I can only reiterate that I'm content for now to continue giving Poch, the players, and the club as a whole the time and patience it needs to reestablish itself again. That'll not last forever, but it's something I can do for now at least. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by xceleryx
spelling

[McCreadie]

Those championing de Zerbi after 5 (five) games of Pochettino, might do well to remember that de Zerbi lost 3 (three) and drew 2 of his first 5 games at Brighton.

I actually cannot believe the fickle and entitled nature of those on here that are wanting Poch out at this stage. No-one will ever succeed here again without a reasonable amount of time to implement changes and 5 (five) games is not a reasonable amount of time. If you cannot see that, further discussion is pointless. 

 

[McCreadie]

22 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

I've already spoken briefly on some of the areas I think we've shown improvement in, and showcased that further with a brief overview of the usual metrics teams get measured against, so it feels redundant to go back over that again when it isn't likely to sway your view point given your fairly entrenched stance on the matter. Which is perfectly fine by the way, not saying I'm trying to convince you otherwise in all this, but the whole topic itself is becoming increasingly fickle and frustrating when we're five games into a new season, with a new manager, more or less an entirely new team, a young one at that, and while missing a hatful of player on top - some more important than others. 

Not trying to paint the illusion that everything is rosy, or that we don't need to improve further in certain aspects, simply feel there's a middle ground in all of this that's being looked over. Maybe that's because there's a struggle to seperate last season to this, purely because of how bad we've been over the last 12-18 months, I don't know. 

But yeah, I can only reiterate that I'm content for now to continue giving Poch, the players, and the club as a whole the time and patience it needs to reestablish itself again. That'll not last forever, but it's something I can do for now at least. 

More eloquently put than my version.

[xceleryx]

Mauricio Pochettino’s Chelsea in crisis? They’re actually playing quite well.

In basic terms, Chelsea’s start to the 2023-24 Premier League campaign has been something of a disaster.

Five matches into the new season, Mauricio Pochettino’s side have collected five points and sit 14th in the table. They’ve only won once, and even that was probably their simplest fixture of the season, at home to a Luton Town side who are yet to collect a single point.

Let’s get the obvious out of the way. Yes, Chelsea have a very expensively assembled squad. Football coverage is now overwhelmingly obsessed with the transfer market; success or failure on the pitch is immediately considered in relation to spending. Here, the focus is simply on whether Chelsea have played well or not.

And, on the whole, they have.

Full article below by Michael Cox (Zone Marking)

https://theathletic.com/4874009/2023/09/19/chelsea-playing-well-no-panic/

Edited September 19, 2023 by xceleryx

[Mark Kelly]

18 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Mauricio Pochettino’s Chelsea in crisis? They’re actually playing quite well.

In basic terms, Chelsea’s start to the 2023-24 Premier League campaign has been something of a disaster.

Five matches into the new season, Mauricio Pochettino’s side have collected five points and sit 14th in the table. They’ve only won once, and even that was probably their simplest fixture of the season, at home to a Luton Town side who are yet to collect a single point.

Let’s get the obvious out of the way. Yes, Chelsea have a very expensively assembled squad. Football coverage is now overwhelmingly obsessed with the transfer market; success or failure on the pitch is immediately considered in relation to spending. Here, the focus is simply on whether Chelsea have played well or not.

And, on the whole, they have.

Full article below by Michael Cox (Zone Marking)

https://theathletic.com/4874009/2023/09/19/chelsea-playing-well-no-panic/

It's hard to argue with any of the many statistics that back Pochettino up , however , let me ask you a question or two.

Colwill , better as a centre half or better as a full back?

Chilwell , better as a fullback or better as a winger?

Enzo , better in the pivot or better further forward?

 

[ROTG]

1 minute ago, Mark Kelly said:

It's hard to argue with any of the many statistics that back Pochettino up , however , let me ask you a question or two.

Colwill , better as a centre half or better as a full back?

Chilwell , better as a fullback or better as a winger?

Enzo , better in the pivot or better further forward?

 

I could ask is this squad any better than the squad this time last season. But I will not. 

Off to get my tin hat again 😁

[Max Fowler]

34 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Mauricio Pochettino’s Chelsea in crisis? They’re actually playing quite well.

In basic terms, Chelsea’s start to the 2023-24 Premier League campaign has been something of a disaster.

Five matches into the new season, Mauricio Pochettino’s side have collected five points and sit 14th in the table. They’ve only won once, and even that was probably their simplest fixture of the season, at home to a Luton Town side who are yet to collect a single point.

Let’s get the obvious out of the way. Yes, Chelsea have a very expensively assembled squad. Football coverage is now overwhelmingly obsessed with the transfer market; success or failure on the pitch is immediately considered in relation to spending. Here, the focus is simply on whether Chelsea have played well or not.

And, on the whole, they have.

Full article below by Michael Cox (Zone Marking)

https://theathletic.com/4874009/2023/09/19/chelsea-playing-well-no-panic/

Went ahead and removed the paywall on this article for anyone interested:
https://archive.ph/s8DpH

[Max Fowler]

40 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Mauricio Pochettino’s Chelsea in crisis? They’re actually playing quite well.

In basic terms, Chelsea’s start to the 2023-24 Premier League campaign has been something of a disaster.

Five matches into the new season, Mauricio Pochettino’s side have collected five points and sit 14th in the table. They’ve only won once, and even that was probably their simplest fixture of the season, at home to a Luton Town side who are yet to collect a single point.

Let’s get the obvious out of the way. Yes, Chelsea have a very expensively assembled squad. Football coverage is now overwhelmingly obsessed with the transfer market; success or failure on the pitch is immediately considered in relation to spending. Here, the focus is simply on whether Chelsea have played well or not.

And, on the whole, they have.

Full article below by Michael Cox (Zone Marking)

https://theathletic.com/4874009/2023/09/19/chelsea-playing-well-no-panic/

See I disagree with most of the thrust of that article.

It should have said something like:
"Chelsea are playing well in parts, but they need to convert that into results".

Jackson not converting chances is a bad thing, not a good thing. 

Okay - at least he's getting chances, but his confidence already looks shot.

Our game management against Forest, as an example, was abysmal.
Conceding just after half time is unforgivable - that isn't "playing well".

I accept we are playing better under Potterchino than Potter.

But we have just had our easiest run of fixtures.

You would expect us to do okay statistically.

 

[martin1905]

45 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Those championing de Zerbi after 5 (five) games of Pochettino, might do well to remember that de Zerbi lost 3 (three) and drew 2 of his first 5 games at Brighton.

I actually cannot believe the fickle and entitled nature of those on here that are wanting Poch out at this stage. No-one will ever succeed here again without a reasonable amount of time to implement changes and 5 (five) games is not a reasonable amount of time. If you cannot see that, further discussion is pointless. 

 

It's not about Pochettinos first 5 games though or De Zebri's.

I think most have seen enough of both by now to have an opinion on them.

And I also haven't seen too many people calling for Pochettino TO be sacked. I have stated multiple times that I hope he isn't but think he will be, by Christmas.

Personally I was completely anti Pochettino when we hired Potter and pretty much said anyone but Pochettino, it was part of the reason I wanted Potter. I was swayed by others this time round and really wanted him, thinking he was the perfect man for the job. The first 6 games have just reiterated to me why I didn't want him after Tuchel, along with his Tottenham connections but the fact that I just didn't rate him was the main reason.

So it's really not about the first 6 games and I don't think anyone is calling for his head. 

I'd love to know how many people would swap him for De Zebri though, hypothetically of course.

[xceleryx]

33 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

It's hard to argue with any of the many statistics that back Pochettino up , however , let me ask you a question or two.

Colwill , better as a centre half or better as a full back?

Chilwell , better as a fullback or better as a winger?

Enzo , better in the pivot or better further forward?

We both know the answer to these three questions. 

What I will say though is that there's nothing to indicate these are long term choices. We've obviously been short in the attacking positions, so a fix has been Chilwell playing wide. With Palmer having joined late and likely needing to get up to speed a bit first before being fully thrown in. The other alternative is playing Maatsen, another fullback, which seems ironic to endorse. 

The Colwill, Thiago Silva and Disasi situation is a little interesting in ways. Colwill needs to keep playing games, we need Thiago Silva's experience, leadership and organisation skills. While Disasi provides us with some much needed size and aerial strength. WIth Chilwell playing higher we can fit all three in, once Chilwell likely returns to fullback we'll need to pick two of the three. 

Enzo needs freedom to get forward, but he's not a #10 either. At the same time, he's also our best passer and best creative outlet through the middle. If you had to pick a midfielder to push higher up while we're missing more preferable options he's arguably the most attractive for these reasons. Gallagher can play as an attacking mid but he's more of that runner in the box type, or someone you tee up to take a shot, and less so a creator for others. I don't see this being something we'll continue with, and we'll likely return to Gallagher and Enzo interchanging, or possibly Palmer coming in eventually. 

In summary, I see them as short term decisions for immediate problems. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by xceleryx

[martin1905]

51 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Mauricio Pochettino’s Chelsea in crisis? They’re actually playing quite well.

In basic terms, Chelsea’s start to the 2023-24 Premier League campaign has been something of a disaster.

Five matches into the new season, Mauricio Pochettino’s side have collected five points and sit 14th in the table. They’ve only won once, and even that was probably their simplest fixture of the season, at home to a Luton Town side who are yet to collect a single point.

Let’s get the obvious out of the way. Yes, Chelsea have a very expensively assembled squad. Football coverage is now overwhelmingly obsessed with the transfer market; success or failure on the pitch is immediately considered in relation to spending. Here, the focus is simply on whether Chelsea have played well or not.

And, on the whole, they have.

Full article below by Michael Cox (Zone Marking)

https://theathletic.com/4874009/2023/09/19/chelsea-playing-well-no-panic/

I don't read any form of media so naturally will skip that.

I would love someone though to tell me what they think we are doing well, without using stats, people tried using them for Potter.

Personally I don't see anything we are particularly good at and it has nothing to do with being a new team, if we were doing some things we'll I'd get that argument but the whole team has, on the whole been pony. It's literally like Potter and the reason for that is when these managers that aren't that good try to copy Pep and implement his football they are not good enough to do it, on the training ground. That's the problem and some will just say give it time, like last season but much like last season it's plainly obvious.

I don't care about winning that much anymore, it's not the same as Roman and never will be. It was like someone took a massive part of my life away when they tucked him up and my love of football, which was already wavering completely went. I'd still give Pochettino time, because I don't think we were ever winning anything this season and he has had a track record of improving young players, albeit a good while ago now. If he can do that with our young squad then great but it's not about what you, I or anyone else thinks. It's about results and yes some of us are willing to give it time and never expected us to challenge this year but will the board? To do an ROTG and I hate it but we really need to wait until just before Christmas to see how we improve and if we don't how the board react.

I appreciate you said you already had written a post about what you think we are doing well so will have a look for it👍🏻

[Max Fowler]

2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Mauricio Pochettino’s Chelsea in crisis? They’re actually playing quite well.

In basic terms, Chelsea’s start to the 2023-24 Premier League campaign has been something of a disaster.

Five matches into the new season, Mauricio Pochettino’s side have collected five points and sit 14th in the table. They’ve only won once, and even that was probably their simplest fixture of the season, at home to a Luton Town side who are yet to collect a single point.

Let’s get the obvious out of the way. Yes, Chelsea have a very expensively assembled squad. Football coverage is now overwhelmingly obsessed with the transfer market; success or failure on the pitch is immediately considered in relation to spending. Here, the focus is simply on whether Chelsea have played well or not.

And, on the whole, they have.

Full article below by Michael Cox (Zone Marking)

https://theathletic.com/4874009/2023/09/19/chelsea-playing-well-no-panic/

I think this has shades of the last season about it in terms of how the English media dealt with Potter. While Chelsea fans were writhing at what they were seeing on the pitch, journos were telling us he is definitely here for the long-term and nothing will change the owners mind on that. I believe this contributed massively to unrest among the fanbase - we hated the idea that we were stuck with this guy for a number of years and forced the change. 

Same with this article. I am all for using statistics and I do think it shows improvement under Poch. The difference is - I look at our fixtures and the additional money we have spent, as well as the squad being leaner in general, and realise our results are a big problem. It's verging on doublespeak to say "we are playing quite well" - this is a classic case of when statistics don't match the eye test on the pitch where confidence is rapidly dying among our youth.

Here's what the article misses - and I believe you often fall into that trap Celery:

1) We will very likely fail to beat Villa and Brighton at home
2) Because they are home games, the fans will continue to turn toxic
3) "Playing well" will become increasingly impossible for our young lads
4) We then have two fixtures (Fulham and Burnley) to save our season
5) Our run from then onwards could well end Pochettino for good

If you fail to grasp the mood among the fanbase then it's all well and good saying , "Everyone wants Chelsea to be in crisis, but it seems fairly clear that they are not", but it's very, very easy to see the trajectory where we soon will be.

It's almost too predictable. Just like we saw what happened at Bournemouth, it's so easy to see us dropping points against Villa. In fact, it's almost impossible to see us beating Villa. That is the start of a crisis of confidence for our club.

Last season should have been a wake up call for owners to adjust. Instead they've doubled down. Long-term success cannot happen in football without short-term success and we have fantasised again about the former over the latter.

[thevelourfog]

I'm surprised anyone has taken the fact that we still look utterly shit (I know some stats say otherwise, but we aren't passing my eye test) under Pochettino as evidence of anything other than the coach not really being the problem. Potter was awful, but there is so much wrong with this club that goes well beyond who is coaching the first team players. It amazes me anyone really thinks a different coach would do much better. Literally anyone would get mired in the same shit. 

The whole football operation has been utterly dismantled over the last 18 months. I doubt these owners can ever rebuild it, if that is even really their motivation, but no one would be managing that for ... Well, years.

We're f**ked, and the only way through it really is to go through it.

[Sciatika]

The idea that it might be impossible to beat Villa is what causes loss of confidence. If the players believe they will not score they will choose to offload the responsibility. We saw this against Bournemouth. It is very hard to break out of this situation. 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Sciatika

[chara]

Not sure how relevant this is but over here in all the major sports there is no threat of relegation and the implications on multiple levels it has for relegated clubs.

The relegation issues are an ingrained part of our game and always in the mix..from the OG "muscle memory" of reaching the magic relegation safe number of points to board room financial nightmares,,,,,our present leaders have no experience of the ever present relegation threats,despite last season's flirting with the idea, unlike the majority of club administration groups.

Just a thought....an old quote something about concentrating the mind.....

[Siidi]

I was very happy when we appointed Pochettino. But what I have seen so far has made me question my judgement. To put it bluntly I'm shocked by how poorly he has set up the team despite having the preseason and the freedom to build his squad. 

I don't exactly agree with all his choice of players, but if he made a winning team of them, no one would complain.

Forget.the scorelines and point tally for minute; we are making basic tactical errors all over the pitch, coming back the next march and repeating the same errors over. Pochettino can't seem to spot a problem and rectify it during a match or between matches. 

I'm not going to predict his sacking as he could still improve. But I won't be surprised if he's gone by the new year 

[Gurj SS]

Got to agree with Petit here, as an ex-footballer he also knows how managers can break a player as much as make them and what also doesn't help is when managers start playing players off each other in public, especially regarding Silva being angry at his teammates; some stuff is always best left behind closed doors, and it's the type of talk we normally see from managers who are finding everyone but themselves to put the responsibility on.

[Ham]

2 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

I'm surprised anyone has taken the fact that we still look utterly shit (I know some stats say otherwise, but we aren't passing my eye test) under Pochettino as evidence of anything other than the coach not really being the problem. Potter was awful, but there is so much wrong with this club that goes well beyond who is coaching the first team players. It amazes me anyone really thinks a different coach would do much better. Literally anyone would get mired in the same shit. 

The whole football operation has been utterly dismantled over the last 18 months. I doubt these owners can ever rebuild it, if that is even really their motivation, but no one would be managing that for ... Well, years.

We're f**ked, and the only way through it really is to go through it.

Whilst I get the negativity and sense of doom on here, the mood changes dramatically when a group of footballers kick or head a ball into a goal. 

I think the majority are simply going too far with the baby with the bath water approach. 

Football isn't scientific. It's random. The ball bounces of in all directions and sometimes the luck changes. We're due a change of luck. 

We've got a really good squad of players and we're hamstrung (excuse this one) by injuries.  We're barely conceding, despite claims to the contrary. We're making chances which is a start. 

My point being, there's a middle ground between doom and my levels of positivity. 

When I read about us having no chance of a home win versus Villa I have to step in. 

[Max Fowler]

2 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

I'm surprised anyone has taken the fact that we still look utterly shit (I know some stats say otherwise, but we aren't passing my eye test) under Pochettino as evidence of anything other than the coach not really being the problem. Potter was awful, but there is so much wrong with this club that goes well beyond who is coaching the first team players. It amazes me anyone really thinks a different coach would do much better. Literally anyone would get mired in the same shit. 

The whole football operation has been utterly dismantled over the last 18 months. I doubt these owners can ever rebuild it, if that is even really their motivation, but no one would be managing that for ... Well, years.

We're f**ked, and the only way through it really is to go through it.

I agree - and I think it comes down to this. The owners don't appreciate the importance of getting the best head coach available and building the culture around him.

I don't know much about baseball, so correct me if I am wrong American sports fans, but I believe the manager is far less important in baseball than football. Here's Bleacher Report on baseball:

"Managers matter, except when they don't.

For every story of a team that won because it found the right manager, there's a story of a team that won in spite of its manager. Every player who has been around long enough has been on a team where someone said, "Let's keep the manager out of this.""

This simply isn't the case in football. The manager is always crucial.

Okay you can say, we got an highly regarded manager in Pochettino. Except many of us though Nagelsmann was the better option, and even above that Tuchel was one of the top three in world football.

But I agree with your original point - whoever we get is going to struggle, because the owners simply don't have the attitude of building the culture around the manager and instead view him as a baseball manager.

I already think Poch, behind the scenes, is going to his wife complaining - why have we not bought more experienced players? Because, let's not forget, he was adamant preseason about what we needed in order to succeed:

“We need to be careful. When you play for Chelsea, people expect to win. Yes, we have many young but we need experience also. We are working hard to add players.”

Have we given Poch what he needed? Nope. We've ignored him, just like we ignored Potter's request to not bring any more players in in January. Our owners are happy to shaft the manager because they think he is unimportant.

Hence why Tuchel fell out with the owners. Hence why Nagelsmann had his reservations. And so we can't blame Poch for being a bridesmaid, except that he jumped on this ship without the promise of experienced additions.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Max Fowler

[thevelourfog]

11 minutes ago, Ham said:

Whilst I get the negativity and sense of doom on here, the mood changes dramatically when a group of footballers kick or head a ball into a goal. 

I think the majority are simply going too far with the baby with the bath water approach. 

Football isn't scientific. It's random. The ball bounces of in all directions and sometimes the luck changes. We're due a change of luck. 

We've got a really good squad of players and we're hamstrung (excuse this one) by injuries.  We're barely conceding, despite claims to the contrary. We're making chances which is a start. 

My point being, there's a middle ground between doom and my levels of positivity. 

When I read about us having no chance of a home win versus Villa I have to step in. 

I think some people are more inclined to cynicism or negativity than others, and some are just more reactionary. I wouldn't count myself in either camp but don't kid myself that I have the sunniest disposition, either.

But on our immediate prospect of a result against a good team at the weekend, it really saddens me to say it isn't about positivity or doom mongering. It's just simple recognition that we are the worst team in the league across 2023. We're in a big hole and it is going to take a long time to get out of it.

[Mark Kelly]

15 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I think some people are more inclined to cynicism or negativity than others, and some are just more reactionary. I wouldn't count myself in either camp but don't kid myself that I have the sunniest disposition, either.

But on our immediate prospect of a result against a good team at the weekend, it really saddens me to say it isn't about positivity or doom mongering. It's just simple recognition that we are the worst team in the league across 2023. We're in a big hole and it is going to take a long time to get out of it.

We're in a big hole by design and it's going to take a long time to get out of it. 

[Ham]

2 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

We're in a big hole by design and it's going to take a long time to get out of it. 

....or a few goals. 

[Gurj SS]

27 minutes ago, Ham said:

Whilst I get the negativity and sense of doom on here, the mood changes dramatically when a group of footballers kick or head a ball into a goal. 

I think the majority are simply going too far with the baby with the bath water approach. 

Football isn't scientific. It's random. The ball bounces of in all directions and sometimes the luck changes. We're due a change of luck. 

We've got a really good squad of players and we're hamstrung (excuse this one) by injuries.  We're barely conceding, despite claims to the contrary. We're making chances which is a start. 

My point being, there's a middle ground between doom and my levels of positivity. 

When I read about us having no chance of a home win versus Villa I have to step in. 

I agree there's a balance to be found, I do think it's harsh to say fans are taking a baby's approach, they just care about their club which has always fought back (in particular the last 20 years under a previous ownership) regardless of what they were up against; bad didn't follow bad, our downs were changed to ups; and even when not done quickly we were able to see signs of hope. Poch has given us nothing yet, while it may be harsh to tear him a new one, it would be just as unfair on members to say he has done a decent job let alone a good one.

I think it comes down to the trust or hope we place in the manager and the squad. I'll be honest, Poch wouldn't be my choice of manager; not exactly sure who would be but he wouldn't have been on the shortlist, we need a serial winner or someone with winning mentality at all cost to install a culture of being robust and gritty in the club, Poch might have got close but he has spent a career failing. Harsh I know but it's the truth, his Spurs team at best were the plucky underdogs catching teams out, and very far from being special regardless of how far they got in the CL, Poch's best season in the Prem was him losing the race against two nobody teams and finishing 3rd. Honestly a lot of the players wouldn't have been at the club either, if someone said we'd be spending the money we have (hate talking about the money but its difficult to ignore such an amount) I would hope there would be better, more experienced and ready made players. I sort of get the whole young players and long contracts, but people forget winning makes money too, and we could easily have got top class ready made players who would have got us into Europe and kept us there within 12 months, and then built upon that by implementing clever additions of young players at bargain prices; we've paid an arm and a leg for some who still have big question marks if they'll ever make it as a top footballer let alone at a top club.

In regards to having no chance of beating Villa, I think it'll be 1-2 and with a good performance I'd call that a step forwards; can we win? Yes of course because it's football, but I think it's fair to say the way things are going we could also lose very badly against a team who is scoring freely when our best chances are scrambling around in the box trying to get a decent shot off.