Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Max Fowler]

30 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I don’t think it is anything to do with Silva.

I think Poch has talked about fullbacks knowing when to attack and also not from both sides. I think part of the issue here is Poch may think Chilwell is a better player than he is. I think he wants him almost acting like a spare man, getting forward from deep and influencing our attack. For this to have any chance of working, he needs a player capable of defending well with size and pace , knowing that a lot is going to be asked of this player as it will involve being isolated at times (in this case it is Colwill) 

This is just my take on things. Poch seems our right hand side full back as the primary attacker.  With Chilwell acting as a free running attacking, which is why it also looks like a back three of Disasi - Silva- Colwill at times , when Gusto has gone forward. 
 

Caicedo also has an important role in this as he is required to help shut down the opposition in and around the zonal area of Colwill. As yet , we have not had a run of games to try this with Caicedo in there to help.

I could be way off with this, but I don’t think it is a case of Poch seeing Colwill as a left back, nor do I think it’s to protect Silva. I think it’s a case of a tactic being tried and Colwill has the athleticism to attempt to play this role. 
 

It’s probably not really working yet, but it’s also not had many games where all the key elements are together to try it.  I just have my doubts Chilwell has the game to really be effective in this role. 

At this point I would rather we switch to a straight 5 at the back than continue with the experiment of Chilwell LW.

Another assumption I have is Poch doesn't really trust Mudryk or our other inexperienced forwards - trusts Chilwell more to be a difference maker even if that means playing him out of his best position.

[Thiago97]

37 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

At this point I would rather we switch to a straight 5 at the back than continue with the experiment of Chilwell LW.

Another assumption I have is Poch doesn't really trust Mudryk or our other inexperienced forwards - trusts Chilwell more to be a difference maker even if that means playing him out of his best position.

Well it is quite hard to trust Mudryk right now. It’s almost like playing with 10 men, he looks that far off it confidence wise.

The other options have had fitness issues or just joined the club. I’m not really disagreeing with you on this point, but I can see why he has been cautious with Mudryk. He needs to play, but we cannot afford passengers after a rocky start. He could probably do with playing tomorrow, but I don’t think he will and I don’t think I would play him either. 

[Max Fowler]

3 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Well it is quite hard to trust Mudryk right now. It’s almost like playing with 10 men, he looks that far off it confidence wise.

The other options have had fitness issues or just joined the club. I’m not really disagreeing with you on this point, but I can see why he has been cautious with Mudryk. He needs to play, but we cannot afford passengers after a rocky start. He could probably do with playing tomorrow, but I don’t think he will and I don’t think I would play him either. 

Personally I have repeated time after time and no one else has really agreed.

We have to play Sterling off the left. It is his best position. He is much more dangerous cutting in off the left onto his right than vice versa. I think it's another big mistake Pochettino is making.

Chilwell LB and Sterling LW would be a great combo and are two of our best goalscorers on their day. 

Would prefer to whack Mudryk on the right as he is not doing anything on the left anyway, so what's the point?

 

[Mark Kelly]

19 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Well it is quite hard to trust Mudryk right now. It’s almost like playing with 10 men, he looks that far off it confidence wise.

The other options have had fitness issues or just joined the club. I’m not really disagreeing with you on this point, but I can see why he has been cautious with Mudryk. He needs to play, but we cannot afford passengers after a rocky start. He could probably do with playing tomorrow, but I don’t think he will and I don’t think I would play him either. 

I'll say again, what Mudryk needs is a full back helping him with overloads and overlapping but Poch doesn't want that he wants Mudryk to morph into prime Hazard overnight. 

[ROTG]

5 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I'll say again, what Mudryk needs is a full back helping him with overloads and overlapping but Poch doesn't want that he wants Mudryk to morph into prime Hazard overnight. 

IMO more kanchelskis than Hazard.

Loan to Bundesliga in Jan for 18 months a far better option. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by ROTG

[Siidi]

Fullbacks attacking is basic stuff. It's all well talking about it, it's how you implement it that makes all the difference.

You have to attack as a unit  and with a purpose and conviction, and switch over when you lose possession. There is no conviction in our attacking. Every pass is  ponderous and delayed. There are too many extra touches on the ball, which is basically what happens when a player doesn't know what to do. Every extra touch is a wasted chance for a good pass. We will never get anywhere playing the way we do. 

[Mark Kelly]

7 hours ago, ROTG said:

IMO more kanchelskis than Hazard.

Loan to Bundesliga in Jan for 18 months a far better option. 

The point I was making is , if you buy a raw but promising winger , you do your utmost to nurture that talent , you surround them with players and a system to help them , you don't forsake that because you're terrified someone might score from a corner against us. Mudryk like Chilwell and Colwill is being mugged off by a coward.

[thevelourfog]

I was confident Pochettino was the best available fit for where we were at the end of last season.

What really worries me is that ... I still think that. I think my reasoning was pretty solid and stacks up well. So the logical conclusion of that is that we are so totally and utterly broken that it really does not matter whoever is in the dug out.

It feels inevitable he'll be gone within the next 8 or 9 weeks, and I do not expect we'll be any better, worse or at all different for it.

Don't think it's self-serving melodrama to already say these lot are in the worst 3 or 4 owners in PL history. It's maybe only the Venkys at Blackburn I'd confidently say were worse.

[McCreadie]

We have to stick with him hold our nerve and it will come good. To sack him would be the most stupid pointless and pathetic decision. You are not getting de Zerbi into this mess mid season.  Or at the end of the season. The mess is the mess. We have to tough it out. 

[Dwmh]

2 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

I was confident Pochettino was the best available fit for where we were at the end of last season.

What really worries me is that ... I still think that. I think my reasoning was pretty solid and stacks up well. So the logical conclusion of that is that we are so totally and utterly broken that it really does not matter whoever is in the dug out.

It feels inevitable he'll be gone within the next 8 or 9 weeks, and I do not expect we'll be any better, worse or at all different for it.

Don't think it's self-serving melodrama to already say these lot are in the worst 3 or 4 owners in PL history. It's maybe only the Venkys at Blackburn I'd confidently say were worse.

Exactly.  Changing a bad manager now won't make the slightest difference other than make all the players realise they are on the departing list too.  It is not as though it is a tactic that has not been tried before.

8 or 9 weeks?  I think it is tomorrow or he lasts at least that long - no way is a manager coming in when we ave Arsenal, Spurs, City and Newcastle as 4 out of 5 games to end November.

(Mind I did think I saw a bit more character today than in previous games)

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, Dwmh said:

Exactly.  Changing a bad manager now won't make the slightest difference other than make all the players realise they are on the departing list too.  It is not as though it is a tactic that has not been tried before.

8 or 9 weeks?  I think it is tomorrow or he lasts at least that long - no way is a manager coming in when we ave Arsenal, Spurs, City and Newcastle as 4 out of 5 games to end November.

(Mind I did think I saw a bit more character today than in previous games)

I think him leaving will simply come when the board decides if it doesn't sack Poch then the fans will turn on them.

[Dwmh]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

I think him leaving will simply come when the board decides if it doesn't sack Poch then the fans will turn on them.

????   Haven't the fans are turned on the board already? 
 

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, Dwmh said:

????   Haven't the fans are turned on the board already? 
 

I'd say they are turning, but even today it wasn't that toxic from the sounds of it. Let's see where we are in a month.

[thevelourfog]

12 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Exactly.  Changing a bad manager now won't make the slightest difference other than make all the players realise they are on the departing list too.  It is not as though it is a tactic that has not been tried before.

8 or 9 weeks?  I think it is tomorrow or he lasts at least that long - no way is a manager coming in when we ave Arsenal, Spurs, City and Newcastle as 4 out of 5 games to end November.

(Mind I did think I saw a bit more character today than in previous games)

I honestly wouldn't credit them with the strategy for this.

[Bigpokey24]

I do not think he should be fired yet ,  He has played 6 games, I think things will turn around soon. We should have signed established top class strikers. there were many out there, instead we invested heavily on midfielders.  I hope they go hard in January to sign at least 2 number 9s. Enough is enough

[martin1905]

2 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Exactly.  Changing a bad manager now won't make the slightest difference other than make all the players realise they are on the departing list too.  It is not as though it is a tactic that has not been tried before.

No offense but that's utter nonsense. Of course a better manager will change things. We are absolutely rubbish and whatever people want to think of the players we have signed we are levels above what we are currently seeing. 

Literally no one thought we would be this bad. After 6 games we are 14th, have one win. Against Luton. We have scored 5 goals, 3 against Luton and lost 3 of our first 6 games after a very favourable start. After Fulham and Burnley we have the most horrendous 7 games. Our first 8 we should have expected an absolute minimum of 15 points, that wouldn't have been great but just about acceptable. With the games coming up it can not be stated enough how important a good start was. Unless there is a monumental turnaround he won't be here by Christmas, whether or not people think it's right or wrong, I suspect by that time nearly everyone would have turned.

Last season is the perfect example of how much difference a proper manager makes, we fired one of the elite and replaced him with a clown. Same players. Went from 3rd in the league and champions of the world to 12th and playing the worst level of football I have seen in 20+ years of attending games home and away.

 

2 hours ago, Dwmh said:

8 or 9 weeks?  I think it is tomorrow or he lasts at least that long - no way is a manager coming in when we ave Arsenal, Spurs, City and Newcastle as 4 out of 5 games to end November.

He will be sacked when the board decide, most likely when they have a replacement lined up, something they are almost certainly looking at already. Rightly or wrongly.

2 hours ago, Dwmh said:

(Mind I did think I saw a bit more character today than in previous games)

A sure sign that the players have turned.

[exiledblue]

I dont want to lose Poch, this is not his fault. He has been given dross to work with.

I also dont want the board to go as they are willing to spend. What I want is those in charge to realise their capabilities and employ the right people to do the business.

This is Todds doing, he played fantasy football and filled our squad with expensive average that we are stuck with. He made a mistake by sacking TT, rather than backing him. We were 2 or 3 new big purchases away from being great.

The heart has been ripped from the team, no striker and no leader.

[east lower]

We’ve played two good halves of football so far this season, second against L’pool and first half at West Ham. The rest has been very ordinary to dross.

Where do people think the catalyst for change is coming from? Reece coming back, Nkunku returning, Badiashile?

Tactically we look poor, we make really poor decisions and look like a bunch of individuals, nothing like a team.

I just watched a real team with Alvaro Morata leading their line (f*****g Morata!!) play Real Madrid off the park. Gimme a Simeone over the wet blanket that we have for a manager any day of any week. We need to win football matches first and fore-mostly, before we completely forget and we need to win any way we can. The fancy stuff can wait a while.

[Dwmh]

58 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Last season is the perfect example of how much difference a proper manager makes, we fired one of the elite and replaced him with a clown. Same players. Went from 3rd in the league and champions of the world to 12th and playing the worst level of football I have seen in 20+ years of attending games home and away.

To be fair most of that decline was already visible a the end of 21/22 when we knew RA was on his way.  After a break at end March our performances were much worse.
The reasons which i may not understand but were bigger than any one influence such as old or new manager.  The Mount Gilmour Chilwell issues may have been part of it, perhaps there was more.  Or it maybe that Marina kept a lid on issues that boiled over when she was gone (and I suspect she may have found working in Cobham from Feb 2022 difficult).

And of course it is quite likely that TT was trying to exit early.  He was appointed the same season to replace Nagelsman at BM.  When board and manager both know that the manager wants to go somewhere else, it is hard to keep him in place.  
TT forced to stay  for an extra 2 months while Chelsea negotiated with Brighton sounds a quite feasible story to me.

Potter's record in 22/23 was better than TT's in the first 7 games.  or TT's last 14 games from end March in 21/22.
Of the many unknown reasons for our rubbish play, Potter replacing TT is not one of them.

59 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

He will be sacked when the board decide, most likely when they have a replacement lined up, something they are almost certainly looking at already. Rightly or wrongly.

They didn't find a replacment with Potter, just took the only substitute school teacher available as a temp.

But I accept your point, I think timing and the fixture list should be important, but the board may have other priorities.

12 minutes ago, east lower said:

I just watched a real team with Alvaro Morata leading their line (f*****g Morata!!) play Real Madrid off the park. Gimme a Simeone over the wet blanket that we have for a manager any day of any week.

Last Sunday I was in Rome watching JM's Roma break out of a bad run and score 7 with Lukaku getting the 6th.
Pity - I went to see JM, but he was sat down smiling all match.  

[east lower]

31 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Last Sunday I was in Rome watching JM's Roma break out of a bad run and score 7 with Lukaku getting the 6th.
Pity - I went to see JM, but he was sat down smiling all match.  

Smiling again this weekend too! Plus just to rub salt into our wounds, a certain ex forward of ours scored for the third game running.

Mind you, they’ve had a dreadful start. But, I’d have him back in a heartbeat for a couple of seasons (the manager, not the CF).

Edited September 24, 2023 by east lower

[My Blood Is Blue]

I've added a poll, it will run until Friday. Interested to see what the overall feeling is.

[martin1905]

8 hours ago, Dwmh said:

To be fair most of that decline was already visible a the end of 21/22 when we knew RA was on his way.  After a break at end March our performances were much worse.

You say that, like others that have bought into this myth but the last 14 games in 21/22 and his first 6 games of last season.

Played 20 

Won 11

Drew 4

Lost 5

PPG 1.85 = 70 points 

8 hours ago, Dwmh said:

The reasons which i may not understand but were bigger than any one influence such as old or new manager.  The Mount Gilmour Chilwell issues may have been part of it, perhaps there was more.  Or it maybe that Marina kept a lid on issues that boiled over when she was gone (and I suspect she may have found working in Cobham from Feb 2022 difficult).

To be fair I have no idea what you are talking about here.

8 hours ago, Dwmh said:

And of course it is quite likely that TT was trying to exit early.  He was appointed the same season to replace Nagelsman at BM.  When board and manager both know that the manager wants to go somewhere else, it is hard to keep him in place.  
TT forced to stay  for an extra 2 months while Chelsea negotiated with Brighton sounds a quite feasible story to me.

If you believe that Tuchel thought he had any chance of joining Bayern then you could make anything sound feasible. Nobody expected Nagelsmann to lose his job last season, literally nobody.

8 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Potter's record in 22/23 was better than TT's in the first 7 games.  or TT's last 14 games from end March in 21/22.
Of the many unknown reasons for our rubbish play, Potter replacing TT is not one of them.

Again, surprised by you but this is just not true. It's not just untrue it's wildly inaccurate 

Played 22

Won 7

Drew 7

Lost 8

PPG 1.27 = 48 points

Tuchel's last 20 league games compared to Potters 22. It's not even remotely close so to say the manager made no difference, with the same set of players is quite clearly not true. It made a huge difference.

It's also not true that our performances dropped off under Tuchel, I'm very surprised that you have bought into this. There was a lot of people on here that wanted him gone, for some very peculiar reason, that kept saying this but it simply isn't true. It was used as a stick to beat Tuchel with, even though it was clearly a myth.

 

8 hours ago, Dwmh said:

They didn't find a replacment with Potter, just took the only substitute school teacher available as a temp.

Quite. Frank done us a favour, at the expense of his own reputation, whatever he had left, nothing more nothing less. His time here shouldn't even be bought into the conversation when it comes to results and performances.

8 hours ago, Dwmh said:

But I accept your point, I think timing and the fixture list should be important, but the board may have other priorities

Well, I've been banging this drum for some time. How, if you broke our opening first 15 games down it was clearly obvious how easy our opening 8 were compared to the 7 coming up and just how important a good start was. 

I don't know what the boards priorities are but suspect if things don't improve drastically then he will be gone. That's not me calling for his head or saying he should or shouldn't be sacked. It's just pretty obvious that if our form carries on like it has by the time we play United we could be in serious danger of relegation. 

8 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Last Sunday I was in Rome watching JM's Roma break out of a bad run and score 7 with Lukaku getting the 6th.

Pity - I went to see JM, but he was sat down smiling all match.  

I'd have Jose back in a heartbeat and said so before Potter was sacked. 

[Thiago97]

Hypothetical question that requires serious thought and an answer for the people who want Poch out now.

Let's say we do it end of this month. We go and get De Zerbi and he comes in early November.

What if we are still not really scoring goals and De Zerbi first 15 games read W3 D6 L6...........then what do we do ?

No good saying it wont be that bad under De Zerbi, cos that is not really an answer anyone can say with certainty. Are you ok with blindly backing this manager who has won very little, and what he has won is in a 1-2 team league ? These are the same things that get thrown at Poch. No-one caveats it with what is he going to win at Southampton, so I don't expect to hear the same lack of context applied for De Zerbi. Whilst no-one seems to want to give Poch any credit for qualifying for CL and reaching a final with spurs (something De Zerbi has not achieved)

I really like De Zerbi, dont get me wrong. None of this is a criticism of him, but I want to know what happens if we get him and his first 15 games look like I have played out and with little goal threat ?

[MickyDroy]

It should be food for thought that even with a really generous points estimate for our next 10 fixtures we'll find ourselves hovering very slightly above the relegation battle after Everton on December 9th.
If one is less generous we'll likely find ourselves among the bottom 3.

Oh how i'd like to see the owners and directors groupchat right now. I honestly don't see how Pochettino last to the new year even. At best we'll be 12th or 13th in mid December and Potter was sacked when we slipped down to the bottom half.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by MickyDroy

[martin1905]

14 minutes ago, MickyDroy said:

It should be food for thought that even with a really generous points estimate for our next 10 fixtures we'll find ourselves hovering very slightly above the relegation battle after Everton on December 9th.
If one is less generous we'll likely find ourselves among the bottom 3.

Oh how i'd like to see the owners and directors groupchat right now.

 

You are of course correct, looking at our fixtures coming up we are, based on current form and without a monumental turnaround likely to find ourselves very close to the bottom three by mid December.

Our first 8 games were always going to be about getting a settled 11 into a system to try and gain some momentum and confidence to be ready for the Arsenal game. The only injuries that really effect our best 11 are James and Nkunku and as important as they are I don't think it's a reason to see what we are seeing, especially as Gusto is a more than adequate back up for James so it's only really Nkunku that we are seriously missing.

Chilwell showed in half an hour yesterday why he absolutely has to play at left back. Colwill played one hell of a ball to him when he was bursting forward, which lead to his chance. It's literally the first time we have seen it this season. Colwill's passing is a weapon from centre half so not only have we missed having a proper left back making forward, overlapping runs we've negated one of the best passers of the ball from centre back that I have seen.

And Enzo at 10 is arguably a more stupid decision. Not only are we missing him playing deeper, where he is absolutely phenomenal, he is truly woeful as a 10. Can't get anywhere near Jackson and leaves him completely isolated both in terms of helping the press and getting close enough to him to help with the link up play. We have seen how good Jackson is when he has players in and around him but he has been left hung out to dry.

Gallagher should be commended on his work rate, his professionalism, his hunger, his desire but he is certainly no Enzo playing where he is. It would be brutal to drop him but it must happen for the good of the team. The least we could have done was switch him and Enzo, at least give it a go.

It will be interesting to see how stubborn Pochettino is. It's not impossible to turn this around but he has to be big enough to realise he's made many mistakes so far and if he doesn't change he will be gone. The 7 games we have coming up, after Burnley will make or break him. If we don't see a massive change there will be only one outcome.