Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Max Fowler]

20 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Eh ok? There are other people on this forum apart from you Max. 

Noted - as long as the "Pochettino out" brigade is not being lumped in together without any nuance.

[flllerywhereru2]

3 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

Common sense prevailing here. When you have the best part of 10-12 options not available to you, regardless of how many of them may/may not start, we as a squad are clearly are not in our optimum position. So any conclusive decisions made is just bizarrely premature.

I believe it would be very difficult to get anyone credible as a replacement now. Imagine going and speaking to any credible manager about coming in as the new manager, after sacking our last one after 6-10 games. 

It replicates some of these crazy Serie A ownerships like Cagliari , Genoa , Palermo , where over the years they can go through 5 managers in one season.

I also think it only take one positive result or even slice of luck for the situation to turn in our favour. I do genuinely believe we are one good result away from an upturn. Now I am not saying an upturn in terms of pushing for top5, but an upturn that brings about a change in confidence and positivity amongst our players. It may be a deflected strike that goes in, or maybe a lucky OG like Brighton had on Sunday. A small change in fortune that can lead to or instigate a positive result is something we can, and I fully expect we will build off.

We did make the right call in sacking him. I can remember the turning point games for me with both Lampard and Potter. Lampard was Wolves away when we were leading and lost, that was the moment I lost faith and decided we needed to change. Potter was after Forest away last season, that was when I went from being supportive of time and stability, to deciding we needed change.

On Potter specifically, 22 games was most definitely enough because the situation was getting worse and not better. Let's not forget, we also had a months break in this for the World Cup. Whilst we had players playing in the WC and not at Cobham , I believe we should have still come back from that break and looked a better team. We looked even worse than before.

We do not look worse now. You asked people to describe how we are better and that you kept getting ignored. I responded explaining why I believed we are better, you didn't respond/question any of it.

Sunday was a clear improvement from the last two games. Liverpool / West Ham was clear progress on last season, I would say we had more positives in these two games we didnt win, than we showed in beating Luton.

So no the correlation about supporting Poch therefore we must still support Potter does not stand up. 6 games with some positives and with a much less experienced squad, is very different to 22 games of decline with more experienced high level players at your disposal.

Totally agree here, you have to look at the performances rather than the result. Saturday we were very bright until the red card (screwed over by the officials imo) after which Villa realised the opportunity they had and took it. even then we had chances to equalise especially chilwells that he should have scored. The team play has more pattern and solidity than last seasons free for all.  We start scoring we start piking up points simple as...

[My Blood Is Blue]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

Popped over to the Chelsea sub on Reddit and someone had compiled these from the Villa match alone. Don't necessarily agree with them all, but certainly more than enough opportunity to bulge the ol' onion bag.

 

That is so depressing. I'd never expect us to put all those chances away, but you'd rightly expect at least a couple to be finished. How are we consistently so bad at converting chances?!

[chara]

Todd and Co took over at a very confused and difficult time...no long term build up of ownership transfer not helped by the coach having personal issues.

The ensuing chaos led to TT going and a media appointed messiah arriving at SB...on paper a good move but many on here felt uneasy about the appointment but tried to be supportive.....ultimately the dissenters were correct...no need to analyse why..it was what it was.

Todd appeared to want to be a one man band but I feel it was more a case of someone had to try and take some control of the situation..again opinions differ ...most called for "Football" people to take the reins.....that came to pass... again seemed to be the right appointments but the inbalance seems to prove an amateurish approach to the business of the playing side not cold eyed reality...taken individually the incoming players are not so much mistakes but the overall combination lacks the steel and experience to challenge in the EPL.

The core of players everyone wanted shipped out were .

A new Coach was appointed and was,to my mind, about as reasonable a choice as any,,Spursy but experienced.... 

Suddenly due to the almost inevitable slow failing start to the season...really?...huge protests ...completely new mainly young squad and injuries did anyone expect a rush to glory?

Terrible start but remember when Lukaku actually scored against what was considered an appalling early season Arsenal?...where did that go?

Point fingers at team selection..easy from the couch..get on the dirt and watch players all week and weigh up options..that's the hard part..one on one with the keeper?..messes up yet again?...how do you coach that sort of miss?...the players are trying..unlike times last season....Poch at least has changed that...his only real senior player is at an age most have retired yet without him at the back how would the back line hold under stress?

Poch has a huge task and has done since day one..do I like watching the struggles?..hell no, but as with the striker argument who else is there to be considered?...Toney and the new Brighton messiah?....... don't think so...we have to persevere and hope the breaks come with a wider choice of lineup options and at best a mid table survival target...it's expectations that bring anger.....the hope kills you but expectations blinker you.

I am not a Poch fan but will back him until shown he cannot cope as the season progresses. As with any Chelsea coach.

After thought..AVB,Scolari even RDM to an extent...most knew they were wrong from the beginning without the issues Poch has...not the same feeling.....for me ,,not speaking for others.

Am I nervous?..very...do I see a relegation flirting?..absolutely... that my friends is Football fandom in a nutshell.....ying and yang...glory and abject failure...Mr Kipling anyone?

[Dwmh]

23 minutes ago, chara said:

not helped by the coach having personal issues.

Aha - didn't know this - thanks

 

24 minutes ago, chara said:

Am I nervous?..very...do I see a relegation flirting?..absolutely... that my friends is Football fandom in a nutshell.....ying and yang...glory and abject failure...Mr Kipling anyone?

Exceedingly bad Cream Cakes.

[chara]

28 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Aha - didn't know this - thanks

 

Exceedingly bad Cream Cakes.

Really Droy?...are you pulling my chain or did you really not know about TT's marital issues?...just asking?

[Backbiter]

1 hour ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

That is so depressing. I'd never expect us to put all those chances away, but you'd rightly expect at least a couple to be finished. How are we consistently so bad at converting chances?!

We have a conversion rate of 5.5%, which is the worst in the division. Our xG is 6th best. On chances alone - and our defensive record - we should be in the top 6.

Why our results are so bad is not exactly a mystery.

[Dwmh]

24 minutes ago, chara said:

Really Droy?...are you pulling my chain or did you really not know about TT's marital issues?...just asking?

Wasn't paying so much attention - banned for a start and the team were not interesting to say least.
And the removal of RA and a lot of blatant nonsense in the conventional media meant I was too busy what was happening in the real world.  (and a bunch of work came through)

[east lower]

3 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Aha you go to matches with someone.
I worked out long ago about the psychology of only one nutter in the room.
I learnt it commuting on British Rail and stuck waiting on a non-moving train.
sooner or later someone would start moaning aloud, and i'd sit smugly smiling at how silly they were.
But occasionally i found everyone else was reading their paper and the mad nutter was me.

No wonder you get to be the rational one 

Snip......
We are all speculating about the causes of our underperformance which goes back to March 2022.
I doubt many still think it is the players though.

 

I'm the looney tunes, as she so regularly reminds me "getting so upset, at a just a game". Which does get repeated when her favourite player gets kicked or the moaning Minnie's behind me go on an irrational rant about him and she goes off on one! My son still comes to games and I've gotten my 14 year old granddaughter attending home and a few aways with me as well. 

However my current rants are and have been for a few seasons now, are the referees. Self-serving and perpetuating oafs. Not a spine amongst the lot of them, take the 90 something minute booking of the Villa goalkeeper for time-wasting. Spineless decision as he'd been up to the same thing all game, book him on the third occasion not the twenty-third, doing it that late saves the really tough decision to send him off when he keeps doing it. Not booking Digne for re-entering the field of play without the refs permission, he'd been previously booked. Jeez, if we thought the Dean's and other recent retirees were poor, this new batch are a whole level worse.

Edited September 26, 2023 by east lower

[Dwmh]

14 minutes ago, east lower said:

However my current rants are and have been for a few seasons now, are the referees. Self-serving and perpetuating oafs. Not a spine amongst the lot of them, take the 90 something minute booking of the Villa goalkeeper for time-wasting. Spineless decision as he'd been up to the same thing all game, book him on the third occasion not the twenty-third, doing it that late saves the really tough decision to send him off when he keeps doing it. Not booking Digne for re-entering the field of play without the refs permission, he'd been previously booked. Jeez, if we thought the Dean's and other recent retirees were poor, this new batch are a whole level worse.

For me refereeing got a whole lot better around 2016.   At least for Chelsea.  A  13 year period of out and out bias came to an end, and e went to just getting a slight bias against (though still not in line with the usual bias for Big clubs).  Of course it is different watching on TV from being there.

I have wondered if it were Refs giving thanks to the club for getting rid of JM (who really did a great job of explaining what they got wrong).  I also wondered if it were a more respectful approach by CA.
But I'm pretty sure it is Pochettino we have to thank.

I think the Clattenberg game was a huge scandal behind the scenes (Should have been massive in the press too) and he disappeared as a ref in PL quite a few years early.  I'm sure the whole set if refs knew what had happened.  Something similar happened with Graham Poll.
https://www.worldfootball.net/referees/eng-premier-league-2015-2016/1/

He was 41.   7 of the other 18 refs in the list are younger than him, 11 older, up to 10 years older.

[east lower]

12 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

For me refereeing got a whole lot better around 2016.   At least for Chelsea.  A  13 year period of out and out bias came to an end, and e went to just getting a slight bias against (though still not in line with the usual bias for Big clubs).  Of course it is different watching on TV from being there.

I have wondered if it were Refs giving thanks to the club for getting rid of JM (who really did a great job of explaining what they got wrong).  I also wondered if it were a more respectful approach by CA.
But I'm pretty sure it is Pochettino we have to thank.

I think the Clattenberg game was a huge scandal behind the scenes (Should have been massive in the press too) and he disappeared as a ref in PL quite a few years early.  I'm sure the whole set if refs knew what had happened.  Something similar happened with Graham Poll.
https://www.worldfootball.net/referees/eng-premier-league-2015-2016/1/

He was 41.   7 of the other 18 refs in the list are younger than him, 11 older, up to 10 years older.

There's bias a plenty and has been since we became more successful, partly down to our being labelled as buying success, partly down to Jose telling it as it was and then down to calling out Claattenberg. Read about the latter's business dealings snd you'll see what he's all about.

Mark Halsey wrote a book and it's a decent read. Talks about refs biases and slaughters certain other refs of his era. Also has dome very glowing words and tributes towards Jose and what he personally did for Halsey when he was ill.

Edited September 26, 2023 by east lower

[chara]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

Wasn't paying so much attention - banned for a start and the team were not interesting to say least.
And the removal of RA and a lot of blatant nonsense in the conventional media meant I was too busy what was happening in the real world.  (and a bunch of work came through)

OK..apologies,,,understand your circumstances,,glad a bunch of work came your way...

Being retired..and Mrs C in UK at the minute.. I have far too much time on my hands at times and the media Buffoonery in all things is a wonder to behold!

[Chelsea_Matt]

4 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Exactly! That's a great breakdown. They score on a half chance while we miss chances that you'd expect players to score from. There is no excuse for our poor finishing, absolutely abysmal. We also make the wrong calls when we have the ball in the final third.  

The wrong calls thing is also a major concern. You can’t fix stupid.

[Ham]

3 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

That is so depressing. I'd never expect us to put all those chances away, but you'd rightly expect at least a couple to be finished. How are we consistently so bad at converting chances?!

IT'S THE PLAYERS. 

2 hours ago, chara said:

Really Droy?...are you pulling my chain or did you really not know about TT's marital issues?...just asking?

Not just his marital issues.  Rumours of further indiscretions...... Allegedly.

1 hour ago, Backbiter said:

We have a conversion rate of 5.5%, which is the worst in the division. Our xG is 6th best. On chances alone - and our defensive record - we should be in the top 6.

Why our results are so bad is not exactly a mystery.

No it isn't but let's blame Todd and Poch anyway. 

[chara]

2 minutes ago, Ham said:

IT'S THE PLAYERS. 

Not just his marital issues.  Rumours of further indiscretions...... Allegedly.

No it isn't but let's blame Todd and Poch anyway. 

Too much plain common sense there Ham.... just remember..."THE SKY IS FALLING!!!"

[Sleeping Dave]

48 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

The wrong calls thing is also a major concern. You can’t fix stupid.

Yes, I think Pochs handling of Mudryk and Chilwell has been very, very odd. Personally, and I accept I may be very lonely thinking this, this season should be a season when we start phasing out Silva. We have one really good CB injured (Badiashile) and three good ones in Disasi, Chalobah and Colwill. I’m not saying don’t play him at all, I’m saying play him less. The mistake he did that led to Villas goal was amateurish. Really, really bad. 

Let him play every other game. I don’t see how he would start all our league games when. Badiashile and Chalobah are back from the treatment table. Badiashile is somewhat of a unit as well, lessening that lack of height this side has. Starting to lean towards this as a XI we should really look to cement;

                                Sanchez (1.97)

James-Disasi (1.90) - Badiashile (1.94)-Chilwell

                           Ugochukwu (1.91)

                               Enzo - Caicedo

        Nkunku          Jackson         Mudryk

Of course that doesn’t mean players like Gusto, Colwill, Lavia, Gallagher, Sterling and Madueke shouldn’t play. More that I like the profile of that side - strong and tall centre with Sanchez/Disasi/Badiashile/Ugochukwu and pace and creativity from the front four (with Enzo). Also a set of fullbacks that are great going forward. 

Think that side has some real potential (even better if we can add a striker that has 15+ league goals in him). If we want to be more attacking, take out Caicedo, bring Enzo into a two-man midfield with Big Les and add one of Sterling/Madueke/Palmer into a three behind Jackson. 

[xceleryx]

10 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

That is so depressing. I'd never expect us to put all those chances away, but you'd rightly expect at least a couple to be finished. How are we consistently so bad at converting chances?!

You could do this sort of breakdown for all our games this season, this is why I refuse to be a Debbie Downer about thing as they stand. Are we prime Barcelona? Absolutely not. But we're also not a putrid 2007/08 Derby County either. 

We just don't convert our moments, of which we've had more than enough to make something of. Then we rub salt into the wound through stupid mistakes to give up soft goals in return. 

In years past we had the same issue, but also weren't creating much of anything either. We're at least now doing the latter better, we just need a reliable option or two around goal - or at least a few of the guys we've got to score their first and build a bit of confidence.

[Michael Tucker]

5 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

 I refuse to be a Debbie Downer

A what????🤩

[xceleryx]

3 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

A what????🤩

Was a character on Saturday Night Live in the early 2000's, basically just means a negative/pessimistic person. 

[Michael Tucker]

1 minute ago, xceleryx said:

Was a character on Saturday Night Live in the early 2000's, basically just means a negative/pessimistic person. 

Oh right. You learn something new every day (at least I do😇

[kev61]

16 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Yep, ignore the Tuchel was a "dead man walking" narrarative. We can hand pick some periods of Klopp's reign which were just as bad or worse results-wise, yet they continue to back their elite manager through transitions and look where they are now.

Even those who are not blindly supporting the board (like @Mark Kelly) regurgitate narratives about Tuchel's wife, him burning out, losing the dressing room, blah blah blah. We simply bottled backing the manager and rebuilding the club around him.

The board doesn't want a manager like Tuchel or Nagelsmann - they want a yes man who they can run over in the transfer market. "Poch wants an experienced striker? Don't worry - he's an affable guy - we can dodge that one and he'll get over it quickly!"

I wholeheartedly agree about Tuchel.I must admit I was getting sucked into the 'Tuchel  should go' camp.It's hard not being sheep when you'r surrounded by sheep,  and that is not meant to demean anyone.

There are several people that are responsible for were we are...the british government,players attitudes,clueless American owners,stupid contracts where a player doesn't need to try, but compare the disparity in contracts that a player next him in the dressing room is on a huge amount of money more than him.

These are all possible reasons why we are struggling,i can't possibly know and I can't pin it down to one reason,it's probably a combination of things.

What i do know is Poch makes no sense in what he is doing on the field.We have went from a team that I was excited about to a team that looks uncoached.If only we had Nkunku and James back my ass.

 

[Max Fowler]

5 minutes ago, kev61 said:

I wholeheartedly agree about Tuchel.I must admit I was getting sucked into the 'Tuchel  should go' camp.It's hard not being sheep when you'r surrounded by sheep,  and that is not meant to demean anyone.

There are several people that are responsible for were we are...the british government,players attitudes,clueless American owners,stupid contracts where a player doesn't need to try, but compare the disparity in contracts that a player next him in the dressing room is on a huge amount of money more than him.

These are all possible reasons why we are struggling,i can't possibly know and I can't pin it down to one reason,it's probably a combination of things.

What i do know is Poch makes no sense in what he is doing on the field.We have went from a team that I was excited about to a team that looks uncoached.If only we had Nkunku and James back my ass.

 

Good of you to admit, Kev. Admitting you were being misled is an invaluable but all-too-seldom move and we should be prepared to do so should Poch prove us wrong. 

I think the basic formula is this: Tuchel was desperate to take us onto the next level to challenge City in the league. We needed immediate replacements and additional firepower and even he admitted we were in transition. For Tuchel, paying big fees for experienced players is not only expected - it's vital in order to be serious challenges on the biggest stages.

These owners want to slash operating costs and are willing to forego instant success by finding the brightest young talents. That would have never worked for Tuchel, who is too hungry for instant results and aware of how much winning still matters in longer-term processes. Tuchel became party of our identity - he held our club together and now we are devoid of it.

Was he a little burned out? Probably. Do we need to move on? Yep. But the owners are forever being judged against the original sin of sacking Tuchel. It's hard to imagine 1 billion couldn't have been invested in him to take us from Champions League winners to title challengers. Success would have skyrocketed our revenues as we are seeing right now with Manchester City.

[chara]

@Max Fowler...good post  Max and I agree pretty much except for the probably "little burned out"

Not burnt out so much as his private life was in turmoil, the club was in turmoil and the USA tour was a disaster...that in itself should have raised red flags..TT really was finished at that stage..could he have recovered at Chelsea?..I doubt it but it was a perfect storm in so many tragic ways..I didn't call for TT to go but in hindsight it was the best thing for everyone concerned...then came the next stage which unfortunately just compounded the bad circumstances.

 

[kev61]

23 minutes ago, chara said:

@Max Fowler...good post  Max and I agree pretty much except for the probably "little burned out"

Not burnt out so much as his private life was in turmoil, the club was in turmoil and the USA tour was a disaster...that in itself should have raised red flags..TT really was finished at that stage..could he have recovered at Chelsea?..I doubt it but it was a perfect storm in so many tragic ways..I didn't call for TT to go but in hindsight it was the best thing for everyone concerned...then came the next stage which unfortunately just compounded the bad circumstances.

 

I normally agree with you Chara but not on this occasion. I'll explain why.Tuchel could see we were in decline and could see the players were not responding to his instructions.

You could see his agitation  on the sidelines.If the new owners had given him another year and backed him to a fraction of what we have spent since he was sacked I think we would not be in the position we are in now.

It is a an opinion with honesty.

[kev61]

14 hours ago, chara said:

Really Droy?...are you pulling my chain or did you really not know about TT's marital issues?...just asking?

He was yanking your chain but wouldn't admit it.