Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Dwmh]

4 hours ago, Dwmh said:

{{Other than the ageing Silva*, RLC and CHO,and may be Alonso, }}  I am not sure anyone who has moved on should have done.

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

Really? wow.

From the team that finished 3rd under RA despite a horrible last 3 months under a cloud?  74 points which is pretty good for anyone but a Title chaser.
I'm not saying I object to anyone wanting to further their career away, or that more than a couple could not be improved upon.  But I think all could contribute to a top 4 PL team, and most of them have gone to teams that at least expect to play in CL every year.

City, Man U, RM (2), Arsenal (2), AC Milan (x2), Inter, AM, Newcastle, Barca (2)

That is a lot of big clubs picking up a lot of players cheap.

 

[paulw66]

9 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

From the team that finished 3rd under RA despite a horrible last 3 months under a cloud?  74 points which is pretty good for anyone but a Title chaser.
I'm not saying I object to anyone wanting to further their career away, or that more than a couple could not be improved upon.  But I think all could contribute to a top 4 PL team, and most of them have gone to teams that at least expect to play in CL every year.

City, Man U, RM (2), Arsenal (2), AC Milan (x2), Inter, AM, Newcastle, Barca (2)

That is a lot of big clubs picking up a lot of players cheap.

 

Without having the energy to dissect each and every one, you could make a case by case basis for each, but.......

We couldn't continue with a midfield 3 of Kante, Kova and Jorginho. All the wrong side of 30, one of whom is completely broken. You could make a case for one staying, but in reality, they had each individually become dispensable, and all 3 needed replacing in the relatively near future. We chose to do it at once, which was a risk.

Two of those players listed (by virtue of the club you mention) left before the takeover. Everyone from the fans to the board wanted to keep Rudiger. that's not on the new owners (ditto AC but less important). 

Put it a different way, the team that got 74 points, was not going to repeat that if literally nobody has been bought or sold. That midfield 3, Alonso, Azpi........all on the decline.  

[Dwmh]

24 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Without having the energy to dissect each and every one, you could make a case by case basis for each, but.......

We couldn't continue with a midfield 3 of Kante, Kova and Jorginho. All the wrong side of 30, one of whom is completely broken. You could make a case for one staying, but in reality, they had each individually become dispensable, and all 3 needed replacing in the relatively near future. We chose to do it at once, which was a risk.

Two of those players listed (by virtue of the club you mention) left before the takeover. Everyone from the fans to the board wanted to keep Rudiger. that's not on the new owners (ditto AC but less important). 

Put it a different way, the team that got 74 points, was not going to repeat that if literally nobody has been bought or sold. That midfield 3, Alonso, Azpi........all on the decline.  

Yes I was certainly making the argument for individuals not the 25 collectively.  Unlike Kova and Jorginho, Kante did not go to a top 2 team.  I shudder to think what it will look like in the Saudi League if he ever gets fully fit though.  Probably like he must have looked at 21 breaking into the Boulogne tier 3 team.  Scary.

All teams need some change, if only to keep them fresh.  But I still think that there was not a lot wrong with many of the 2021/22 side and no need for more than 3 or 4 changes.  

Newcastle kept all their better players, added a few experienced ones and are already in the CL.  They started just 7 months and one Winter window ahead of us.  They were still 25 points and 8 places behind us by last summer.  

(obviously Ii am excluding the Perma-loans too, Baba Rahman, Miazga, Bakayoko. Emerson, Charly Musonda, Drinkwater, Barkley, Bats, Clarke Salter, all gone post RA - that certainly was a habit that needed breaking)

 

[Dwmh]

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

We couldn't continue with a midfield 3 of Kante, Kova and Jorginho.

I should have responded to this with the very very clear heirs to Jorginho and Kante already having been at the club for some years.
As with Maka and Jorginho they have both been played in 10/AM roles for quite a while and had more than enough experience and much more than enough energy to move into CM.

Where are Mount and Gallagher now?  One was bought by Man U to play CM there and the other is showing Chelsea how to play CM here.

[Max Fowler]

I suspect Poch may be too nice to be a truly elite manager. Comes across as a great guy but you don't sense he has that fear factor with his players. I feel all the players really like and respect him but - as was said preseason - as more of a friend than a boss. 

Nearly all of the other elite managers of recent years have a fear factor - perhaps Ancelotti being the notable exception. Poch has a similar gravitas but I just wonder if he is capable of pushing these players to the limit. Maybe enough to take us to the top four again.

[thevelourfog]

7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I suspect Poch may be too nice to be a truly elite manager. Comes across as a great guy but you don't sense he has that fear factor with his players. I feel all the players really like and respect him but - as was said preseason - as more of a friend than a boss. 

Nearly all of the other elite managers of recent years have a fear factor - perhaps Ancelotti being the notable exception. Poch has a similar gravitas but I just wonder if he is capable of pushing these players to the limit. Maybe enough to take us to the top four again.

I always take what players say with a pinch of salt, because most know enough to know what can and cannot be said in public, but I can't recall anything I've ever seen that gives me the same sense you have about Pochettino. Any player I have ever heard talk about him has done so in terms of him being very, very challenging. I think what he has is a group of young, inexperienced players who are low on confidence, and he knows enough to know that berating them is not going to help. 

Whether or not an arm around the shoulder will, or at least will quickly enough, who knows. 

I think we have to face the fact we simply do not have the players to be top 4 right now, regardless of how much someone shouts at then.

[Max Fowler]

7 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I always take what players say with a pinch of salt, because most know enough to know what can and cannot be said in public, but I can't recall anything I've ever seen that gives me the same sense you have about Pochettino. Any player I have ever heard talk about him has done so in terms of him being very, very challenging. I think what he has is a group of young, inexperienced players who are low on confidence, and he knows enough to know that berating them is not going to help. 

Whether or not an arm around the shoulder will, or at least will quickly enough, who knows. 

I think we have to face the fact we simply do not have the players to be top 4 right now, regardless of how much someone shouts at then.

You might be right, I am just speculating really.

Obviously he gets his teams working really hard, really fit, but I wonder if he has the mental man management to really turn his teams into winners. I agree its too early to tell with our side now.

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

I suspect Poch may be too nice to be a truly elite manager. Comes across as a great guy but you don't sense he has that fear factor with his players. I feel all the players really like and respect him but - as was said preseason - as more of a friend than a boss. 

Clearly you have forgotten a certain game.  Too nasty I would have said.
And a serial non-winner  (except of course for Manager of the month titles)
If only the manager was the problem.

Change of theme:  John Obi Mikel has a podcast that is really an excuse for a co-presenter journalist to interview key Chelsea players.  Episode 1:  JT
Quite long (see timeline below).  Includes bits on why Salah and KDB didn't make it at Chelsea (which will no doubt confirm to both sides why they are right and the other side is wrong), and why JT has given up on manager dreams (including his dream of ultimately managing Chelsea).
Mikel says he always imagined JT as a manager but SFL never.
JT is a big fan of Poch.

Timecodes 00:00 - Intro 01:55 - Champions League redemption 06:58 - His role as captain 10:57 - Setting standards at Chelsea Football Club 17:40 - Kevin De Bruyne and Mohamed Salah regrets 24:08 - Relationship with Jose Mourinho 34:27 - What went wrong for Fernando Torres and Andriy Shevchenko 41:46 - The genius of Eden Hazard 46:07 - Revolving door of managers at the Bridge 55:27 - What was Roman Abramovich REALLY like 58:56 - The “toughest night” of JT’s life 01:07:54 - Have we seen the real John Terry? 01:21:15 - The phone call that never came 01:36:32 - A future in Saudi Arabia

[martin1905]

I'd have sacked him after the first 6 games, brutal maybe but those games along with his entire career tell you everything you need to know about him as a manager.

Now, I wouldn't bother, not that I don't think it would make a difference as it would but not enough to warrant making the change, with our run of games coming up and how horrendous our start was the season is over.

Players seem to like him and for all him being a serial loser he does have a history of improving young players. Colwill, Enzo, Caicedo, Palmer, Mudryk, Badiashille, Gusto will all benefit from working with him, playing regularly and being exposed to premier league football. Then there is Gallagher who only had 28 league starts for us so still very raw in terms of playing for a top club. He and James will both be 24 at the start of next season and both clearly natural leaders.

Nkunku will also be key, as will Sterling, whatever people say about him and Disasi. Those three will be the most experienced and along with James and Gallagher it should be enough.

That's 12 players we build the squad around, literally everyone else there is massive question marks about. It's very defensive heavy but we've done our building there for the foreseeable so no need to change much. If Chilwell stays he's another experienced player at a good age. Same for Cucurella so definitely we are fine with a good blend of youth a D experience.

We mustn't ever carry so many young players in the squad. We can have a couple, on top of the already, mostly,  very young players I have mentioned but the squad can not be filled with kids. They need to be sold or loaned.

So, the squad should be built around these players:

James/Gusto Disasi/Badiashille/Colwill

Enzo/Caicedo/Gallagher

Sterling/Mudryk/Palmer/Nkunku

Chilwell and Cucurella make 14 plus Fofana and Lavia will stay for obvious reasons as will Sanchez and Jackson so we are starting with a squad of 18. Everyone else one way or another can't be at Cobham next season, for their own benefit as much as ours.

It's obvious the positions we need to strengthen and I'm not going to talk about individual players as it's pointless but we desperately need a top quality Goal keeper and two strikers, taking the squad to 21. Then the important thing will be to add experienced, short term players whilst all our kids go out and learn to play football.

I'm hoping, for all Pochettino's inability he will be able to improve most of the players we need to keep. We've already seen signs of it with Gallagher, Mudryk and Cucurella. Enzo and Caicedo are on a naturally, incredibly steep curve due to their own ability and the rest will hopefully benefit from a year of Pochettino, playing regularly with very little pressure for the rest of the season.

Then we get a proper manager in the summer and see what happens.

 

 

 

[ROTG]

18 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I'd have sacked him after the first 6 games, brutal maybe but those games along with his entire career tell you everything you need to know about him as a manager.

 No he is a decent manager and as you say probably not the one to win the league but good enough for top 4. 
 

The problem lies with Winstanley, Lawrence and shields who did sweet FA in regards to proper scouting and recruitment to improve the squad, instead bring a list of players who were on the radar of their previous employers who are  mid table teams.

As a journalist said at the weekend the club now has a wage bill on par with most mid table PL teams. Sums the situation up nicely IMO.

dont forget the £3.80 in the jar on Monday 😀

, 

Edited November 1, 2023 by ROTG

[My Blood Is Blue]

16 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Clearly you have forgotten a certain game.  Too nasty I would have said.
And a serial non-winner  (except of course for Manager of the month titles)
If only the manager was the problem.

Change of theme:  John Obi Mikel has a podcast that is really an excuse for a co-presenter journalist to interview key Chelsea players.  Episode 1:  JT
Quite long (see timeline below).  Includes bits on why Salah and KDB didn't make it at Chelsea (which will no doubt confirm to both sides why they are right and the other side is wrong), and why JT has given up on manager dreams (including his dream of ultimately managing Chelsea).
Mikel says he always imagined JT as a manager but SFL never.
JT is a big fan of Poch.

Timecodes 00:00 - Intro 01:55 - Champions League redemption 06:58 - His role as captain 10:57 - Setting standards at Chelsea Football Club 17:40 - Kevin De Bruyne and Mohamed Salah regrets 24:08 - Relationship with Jose Mourinho 34:27 - What went wrong for Fernando Torres and Andriy Shevchenko 41:46 - The genius of Eden Hazard 46:07 - Revolving door of managers at the Bridge 55:27 - What was Roman Abramovich REALLY like 58:56 - The “toughest night” of JT’s life 01:07:54 - Have we seen the real John Terry? 01:21:15 - The phone call that never came 01:36:32 - A future in Saudi Arabia

JT, what a legend. 

[paulw66]

I like Poch's defence of Jackson, in light of some less than intelligent media comments. 

[Dwmh]

2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

Then there is Gallagher who only had 28 league starts for us so still very raw in terms of playing for a top club.

A virgin in fact.
But he has a ton of useful experience at WBA and Palace.

2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

I'd have sacked him after the first 6 games, brutal maybe but those games along with his entire career tell you everything you need to know about him as a manager.

Perfect timing with still a few relatively easy games for an incoming guy.
I think the curious thing with all the money we seem to have is that we couldn't get anyone better than him. 
Everyone leaving and no one over 21 coming.  
 

2 hours ago, ROTG said:

As a journalist said at the weekend the club now has a wage bill on par with most mid table PL teams. Sums the situation up nicely IMO.

I don't believe a word of that.  It is just club talk.  They talk more about club finances than other clubs so it makes more impression on innocent story starved hacks.
or maybe we are chucking games is because the club can't afford the bonuses.

Presumably too soon to see the first CreamCake set of results.
Anyone know if they will be published?

[Dwmh]

3 hours ago, martin1905 said:

We mustn't ever carry so many young players in the squad. We can have a couple, on top of the already, mostly,  very young players I have mentioned but the squad can not be filled with kids. They need to be sold or loaned.

So, the squad should be built around these players:

....

Chilwell and Cucurella make 14 plus Fofana and Lavia will stay for obvious reasons as will Sanchez and Jackson so we are starting with a squad of 18. Everyone else one way or another can't be at Cobham next season, for their own benefit as much as ours.

I agree with that.  But it implies a huge overhaul (again) of the first team.
A  full squad needs 24 or 25 adult pros*.  We tried 19 over 21s in 2015/16 and look where that got us.
Gusto, Lavia and Colwill are still going to be U21 next season.

There are 3 or 4 senior players who can't be relied on to be available for a whole season, plus 3 U21s plus the inevitable 2 or 3 fresh injuries.  
I reckon your 18 + 3 GKS + 6 experienced pros = 24 seniors + 3 U21s.  
That is 5 or 6 new players to buy.  Or we use Chalobah, Maatsen, Broja to add numbers even if they are on their way on.
To my mind while players out of the Academy just want to play (as opposed to have a dream to be picked in Royal blue), when they have had such a dream loan management as Maatsen or Chalobah, it is perfectly reasonable to ask them to sit on the bench for a year or two with us.
 

*I am assuming EL entry here.  I think it is unlikely but if I were a club planner I would have to assume it.

[Sciatika]

3 hours ago, ROTG said:

 As a journalist said at the weekend the club now has a wage bill on par with most mid table PL teams. Sums the situation up nicely IMO. 

According to Spotrac:

Manchester City F.C.	215748000
Manchester United F.C.	209911000
Chelsea F.C.	194894000
Arsenal F.C.	174246000
Liverpool F.C.	140692000
Tottenham Hotspur F.C.	127330000
Aston Villa F.C.	123662000
West Ham United F.C.	98956000
Newcastle United F.C.	97021600
Everton F.C.	81153000
Nottingham Forest F.C.	77510000
Crystal Palace	65820000
Brighton & Hove Albion	60670000
Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.	54706000
Fulham F.C.	54390000
AFC Bournemouth	43240000
Brentford F.C.	38396000
Burnley F.C.	37166000
Sheffield United F.C.	26936000
Luton Town F.C.	24082000

This only includes squad players, not those on loan.

[Mark Kelly]

15 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

According to Spotrac:

Manchester City F.C.	215748000
Manchester United F.C.	209911000
Chelsea F.C.	194894000
Arsenal F.C.	174246000
Liverpool F.C.	140692000
Tottenham Hotspur F.C.	127330000
Aston Villa F.C.	123662000
West Ham United F.C.	98956000
Newcastle United F.C.	97021600
Everton F.C.	81153000
Nottingham Forest F.C.	77510000
Crystal Palace	65820000
Brighton & Hove Albion	60670000
Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.	54706000
Fulham F.C.	54390000
AFC Bournemouth	43240000
Brentford F.C.	38396000
Burnley F.C.	37166000
Sheffield United F.C.	26936000
Luton Town F.C.	24082000

This only includes squad players, not those on loan.

And it also doesn't include the billions in "under the counter" payments that City are forking out.

[thevelourfog]

4 hours ago, ROTG said:

 As a journalist said at the weekend the club now has a wage bill on par with most mid table PL teams. Sums the situation up nicely IMO.

Think you'd have to be pretty brainwashed to believe this. There's no way we aren't still in the top 4 or 5 as far as wages go.

[Dwmh]

2 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

According to Spotrac:

Manchester City F.C.	215748000
Manchester United F.C.	209911000
Chelsea F.C.	194894000
Arsenal F.C.	174246000
Liverpool F.C.	140692000
Tottenham Hotspur F.C.	127330000
Aston Villa F.C.	123662000
West Ham United F.C.	98956000
Newcastle United F.C.	97021600
Everton F.C.	81153000
Nottingham Forest F.C.	77510000
Crystal Palace	65820000
Brighton & Hove Albion	60670000
Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.	54706000
Fulham F.C.	54390000
AFC Bournemouth	43240000
Brentford F.C.	38396000
Burnley F.C.	37166000
Sheffield United F.C.	26936000
Luton Town F.C.	24082000

This only includes squad players, not those on loan.

Indeed.

80% guess work by Spotrac, but I would have guessed Chelsea would be top 4 too.

Mind, probably 85% of our 21/22 wage bill has moved on.  They would be in the last financial reports to be published.  
So this makes the Chelsea figure much more guesswork than the others.  I can imagine it might be lower than Spotrac have.  I can't imagine it is mid-table.

[Holymoly]

7 hours ago, martin1905 said:

I'd have sacked him after the first 6 games, brutal maybe but those games along with his entire career tell you everything you need to know about him as a manager.

Trouble is that we as a club are kind of running out of managers now. Beyond Pep, Klopp and Ancelotti I don't see any nailed on, guaranteed to succeed, managers left for us to employ. Anyone would be a gamble so we may as well stick with Maurice for now.

[Mark Kelly]

7 hours ago, martin1905 said:

I'd have sacked him after the first 6 games, brutal maybe but those games along with his entire career tell you everything you need to know about him as a manager.

What I really cannot fathom is why we played a certain way pre-season , got our hopes up that we were once again heading in the right direction , and then because Nkunku got injured he changed everything and we became a timid version of what we were previously .

In coaching terms he's a coward. 

[Chelsea_Matt]

7 hours ago, ROTG said:

 No he is a decent manager and as you say probably not the one to win the league but good enough for top 4. 
 

The problem lies with Winstanley, Lawrence and shields who did sweet FA in regards to proper scouting and recruitment to improve the squad, instead bring a list of players who were on the radar of their previous employers who are  mid table teams.

As a journalist said at the weekend the club now has a wage bill on par with most mid table PL teams. Sums the situation up nicely IMO.

dont forget the £3.80 in the jar on Monday 😀

, 

While we’ll never know what goes on, this seems reasonable. 

[Max Fowler]

Interesting interview doing the rounds today with Weber - Tuchel's video analyst and assistant coach.

Weber said he knew "what we can put up with and what not". I am now absolutely convinced this aligns with the reports that Tuchel was fired for locking Boehly out of the dressing room after he tried to go in with this kids at half time against West Ham.

I am over Tuchel leaving - but to set the record straight - there is absolutely no way Tuchel needed to leave because he was burned out, had lost the dressing room, or somehow could no longer get a tune out of the team any more.
(as has been repeated ad infinitum on here).

We have been consistently way down on all metrics since Tuchel left even under his worst period.

What I can give a bit more time for now is the realisation that Boehly and co. do have a particular plan / project over the next five years and maybe Tuchel wasn't the best fit to take us through that period of transition. IMO though - we had a unique asset in Tuchel who we should have adjusted our plan around and got the best out of.

When you're a club like Chelsea, you don't get rid of the third best manager in the world. Who won you the Champions League. I am sorry - you don't. We are not Real Madrid. You adjust the plan and build around him.

But now we also have a rare asset in Poch who may be best placed to take us back into the CL places.

But -

The culture of Roman and Tuchel - the culture of winning at all costs, when do we get that back? I can see us building something over the next five years, but when do we become that winning machine again?

I feel eventually we will have to transition the culture of this project to being more killer, more cutthroat, rather than creating a safe, easy and enjoyable atmosphere for young kids to flourish. 

When will the second phase of this project happen? Are the owners capable of realising this shift that will be needed?

I would love to see Tuchel return in a few years (2028?) as I simply don't think Poch is the man to win trophy after trophy - but will the owners have the bottle to bring him back?

 

[ROTG]

5 hours ago, Sciatika said:

According to Spotrac:

Manchester City F.C.	215748000
Manchester United F.C.	209911000
Chelsea F.C.	194894000
Arsenal F.C.	174246000
Liverpool F.C.	140692000
Tottenham Hotspur F.C.	127330000
Aston Villa F.C.	123662000
West Ham United F.C.	98956000
Newcastle United F.C.	97021600
Everton F.C.	81153000
Nottingham Forest F.C.	77510000
Crystal Palace	65820000
Brighton & Hove Albion	60670000
Wolverhampton Wanderers F.C.	54706000
Fulham F.C.	54390000
AFC Bournemouth	43240000
Brentford F.C.	38396000
Burnley F.C.	37166000
Sheffield United F.C.	26936000
Luton Town F.C.	24082000

This only includes squad players, not those on loan.

Does the above take into account the likes of Kepa and Lukaku being on loan?

[ROTG]

7 hours ago, paulw66 said:

I like Poch's defence of Jackson, in light of some less than intelligent media comments. 

 

He's a no2 for any top club, same as Sanchez was a number 3 for a mid table PL team. 

At some point heads need to come out of the sand. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by ROTG

[ROTG]

4 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

Think you'd have to be pretty brainwashed to believe this. There's no way we aren't still in the top 4 or 5 as far as wages go.

Maybe but I doubt it.