Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Sciatika]

6 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Does the above take into account the likes of Kepa and Lukaku being on loan?

As it says, it does not include any on loan players. Only those in the squad. As @Dwmh says, it may not be 100% accurate, but it is indicative. I aggregated the figures from Forward Spending by Cap Dollars | Spotrac.

[boratsbrother]

2 hours ago, Holymoly said:

Trouble is that we as a club are kind of running out of managers now. Beyond Pep, Klopp and Ancelotti I don't see any nailed on, guaranteed to succeed, managers left for us to employ. Anyone would be a gamble so we may as well stick with Maurice for now.

I don't think Carlo would be guaranteed to succeed at this stage of his career.

We're clearly not getting Pep or Klopp so as you say, we might as well stick with Poch, at least til the end of this season.

If we are to look for another manager next summer then I'd take a punt on McKenna who's doing a brilliant job at Ipswich.

 

 

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

What I really cannot fathom is why we played a certain way pre-season , got our hopes up that we were once again heading in the right direction , and then because Nkunku got injured he changed everything and we became a timid version of what we were previously .

In coaching terms he's a coward. 

No

It was a pre season matches where team are working on fitness for the coming season. Also in friendlies team don't play a low block. 

[ROTG]

8 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

As it says, it does not include any on loan players. Only those in the squad. As @Dwmh says, it may not be 100% accurate, but it is indicative. I aggregated the figures from Forward Spending by Cap Dollars | Spotrac.

If true then it even more evidence of how poor the current administration is. 

Another season no Europe how does that impact FFP?

[kev61]

On 31/10/2023 at 16:47, Dwmh said:

Clearly you have forgotten a certain game.  Too nasty I would have said.
And a serial non-winner  (except of course for Manager of the month titles)
If only the manager was the problem.

Change of theme:  John Obi Mikel has a podcast that is really an excuse for a co-presenter journalist to interview key Chelsea players.  Episode 1:  JT
Quite long (see timeline below).  Includes bits on why Salah and KDB didn't make it at Chelsea (which will no doubt confirm to both sides why they are right and the other side is wrong), and why JT has given up on manager dreams (including his dream of ultimately managing Chelsea).
Mikel says he always imagined JT as a manager but SFL never.
JT is a big fan of Poch.

Timecodes 00:00 - Intro 01:55 - Champions League redemption 06:58 - His role as captain 10:57 - Setting standards at Chelsea Football Club 17:40 - Kevin De Bruyne and Mohamed Salah regrets 24:08 - Relationship with Jose Mourinho 34:27 - What went wrong for Fernando Torres and Andriy Shevchenko 41:46 - The genius of Eden Hazard 46:07 - Revolving door of managers at the Bridge 55:27 - What was Roman Abramovich REALLY like 58:56 - The “toughest night” of JT’s life 01:07:54 - Have we seen the real John Terry? 01:21:15 - The phone call that never came 01:36:32 - A future in Saudi Arabia

A compulsive watch for any Chelsea fan(so thank you mr droy).

An insight into the mind of one of the best centre backs that ever played the game.

Funny what he said about players playing out from the back...it is a nonsense!.

He also mentioned team spirit and personalities that make the team gel.Not so much about team tactics except for Carlo.

The reality is you are unlikely to see a top notch chelsea player play with such passion again.

What he said about Poch is irrelevant  - players today don't look up to anyone - they are too busy making money.

What he said about training is very relevant  to the injuries we are experiencing.In his experience players went full pelt in a simulated match scenario and were ready  for match day - today it is a more  physical training (for us anyway)and then come match day we are left wanting in an actual competitive game.

[kev61]

On 01/11/2023 at 18:28, boratsbrother said:

I don't think Carlo would be guaranteed to succeed at this stage of his career.

We're clearly not getting Pep or Klopp so as you say, we might as well stick with Poch, at least til the end of this season.

If we are to look for another manager next summer then I'd take a punt on McKenna who's doing a brilliant job at Ipswich.

 

 

A manager from a lower league will never work no matter how good he is.

With players that can roll about in money on their bed,I doubt if they will listen to  an unknown  manager.

If we do part company with Poch  - we need a  'Name' that  players can respect.

[Chelsea_Matt]

15 hours ago, kev61 said:

A manager from a lower league will never work no matter how good he is.

With players that can roll about in money on their bed,I doubt if they will listen to  an unknown  manager.

If we do part company with Poch  - we need a  'Name' that  players can respect.

Tommy Tee again?

[Max Fowler]

Ok so I’m obsessed by Tuchel again. 

This is embarrassing:

Bayern have now scored the same amount of goals (in 10 games) as we scored throughout the whole of last season (38).

That is also a record for the most goals scored in the first 10 games of the season.

So, can we just finally admit, maybe it wasn’t Tuchel that was the problem after all?

Maybe just maybe it was the fact we had Havertz, Ziyech, Mount, Pulisic, and Werner up front?!

[Mark Kelly]

46 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Ok so I’m obsessed by Tuchel again. 

This is embarrassing:

Bayern have now scored the same amount of goals (in 10 games) as we scored throughout the whole of last season (38).

That is also a record for the most goals scored in the first 10 games of the season.

So, can we just finally admit, maybe it wasn’t Tuchel that was the problem after all?

Maybe just maybe it was the fact we had Havertz, Ziyech, Mount, Pulisic, and Werner up front?!

I think it could be a little bit be due to them having Harry Kane and us having Nicholas Jackson (no disrespect intended ) up front .

[Dwmh]

39 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think it could be a little bit be due to them having Harry Kane and us having Nicholas Jackson (no disrespect intended ) up front .

And them playing in the Bundesliga not the Prem.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think it could be a little bit be due to them having Harry Kane and us having Nicholas Jackson (no disrespect intended ) up front .

38 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

And them playing in the Bundesliga not the Prem.

The point is - they still have had a record start to the season in terms of goals scored in the Bundesliga.

Tuchel was always an attacking coach - he changed his style of play to mitigate for our limited squad.

Just busting the myth that us apparently unable to score (not true) was largely due to him.

There is no great mystery - we don't have the right players to bang in the goals and we didn't then.

We wouldn't have been scratching our heads if we had Kane, Sane and Musiala up front too. 

[Chelsea_Matt]

8 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think it could be a little bit be due to them having Harry Kane and us having Nicholas Jackson (no disrespect intended ) up front .

I do think a return may be on the cards. I think he’d do a lot with this squad. But anyway.

[boratsbrother]

On 04/11/2023 at 04:54, kev61 said:

A manager from a lower league will never work no matter how good he is.

With players that can roll about in money on their bed,I doubt if they will listen to  an unknown  manager.

If we do part company with Poch  - we need a  'Name' that  players can respect.

If we were still a title contending team with established players and some world class ones, then I'd be agreeing with you, but we're not close to being that at this moment in time.

I think it's all about players buying into what the manager does on the training pitch and says in the dressing room, not how big a name the manager is. Just look at how well Spurs are doing with a manager who is far from a big name.

Furthermore, we've already been through all the so called big names, so we'll have to take a punt next time anyway.

[Michael Tucker]

Personally, I don't think that we should have punted  Tuchel. I  thought that he was excellent, and should have been around a long time.

[xceleryx]

11 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

The point is - they still have had a record start to the season in terms of goals scored in the Bundesliga.

Tuchel was always an attacking coach - he changed his style of play to mitigate for our limited squad.

Just busting the myth that us apparently unable to score (not true) was largely due to him.

There is no great mystery - we don't have the right players to bang in the goals and we didn't then.

We wouldn't have been scratching our heads if we had Kane, Sane and Musiala up front too. 

And despite all of what you've put forward Max, there's still been heavy complaints in Germany about the football Tuchel plays since he joined.

If you think all Bayern fans are satisfied by his coaching you'd be gravely mistaken. But alas, when you're virtually the big dog in league that doesn't have the overall quality to match it's arguably harder to fail than it is to succeed in some manner.

[xceleryx]

31 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

Personally, I don't think that we should have punted  Tuchel. I  thought that he was excellent, and should have been around a long time.

I generally agree, I'd have kept Tuchel also. 

That being said, with the manner in which we've gone about our rebuild I don't think he'd have been the right manager to develop a young side either. This was arguably the biggest upside when it came to hiring Poch, his work with young players and improving them. He may not be the man to lead us to glory, but with where we're at right now as a developing side I do feel as if he's a good choice to lay some important foundations. 

[Dwmh]

14 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

I generally agree, I'd have kept Tuchel also. 

That being said, with the manner in which we've gone about our rebuild I don't think he'd have been the right manager to develop a young side either. This was arguably the biggest upside when it came to hiring Poch, his work with young players and improving them. He may not be the man to lead us to glory, but with where we're at right now as a developing side I do feel as if he's a good choice to lay some important foundations. 

So arguably in 2012/13 we had won the CL, a lot of older players were moving on in summers 2012-14 and an absolute ton of young talent was arriving of which Salah, Lukaku and KdB weren't even in the top 7  (think Hazard, Courtois, Willian, Azpi, Luiz, Oscar, Fabregas and some might say Matic),  None of the talent had played PL football though except Fabregas.

In that situation AVB made a lot of sense as a young manager, a stablehand to have the lads trot around before a top jockey arrived to race them.
You could make the same suggestion for 2019 and Lampard, with Academy talent being bloodied and a year to wait for RA's chequebook to open.

But firstly both were failures. Even though the players turned out to be good and we won big stuff 2 seasons later with a top jockey

This time around I'd say the players are much more ready.  Caicedo, Sanchez and Colwill come from a PL club that finished 6th last season.  Sterling and Palmer from City!  Even Lavia comes from the Prem.

There is a lot more experience of PL level football in this team than we had in 2012.  We should be pushing for top 4 minimum.
This idea that we crashed and are now starting as a bottom half PL team needing a lot of turning around is nonsense.

(plus of course if the club felt the young players are too young to handle a top 4 challenge, they could always have kept 3 or 4 seniors back and brought back Lukaku.  They didn't - it is the clubs choice to go with these players.)

[xceleryx]

49 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

So arguably in 2012/13 we had won the CL, a lot of older players were moving on in summers 2012-14 and an absolute ton of young talent was arriving of which Salah, Lukaku and KdB weren't even in the top 7  (think Hazard, Courtois, Willian, Azpi, Luiz, Oscar, Fabregas and some might say Matic),  None of the talent had played PL football though except Fabregas.

In that situation AVB made a lot of sense as a young manager, a stablehand to have the lads trot around before a top jockey arrived to race them.
You could make the same suggestion for 2019 and Lampard, with Academy talent being bloodied and a year to wait for RA's chequebook to open.

But firstly both were failures. Even though the players turned out to be good and we won big stuff 2 seasons later with a top jockey

This time around I'd say the players are much more ready.  Caicedo, Sanchez and Colwill come from a PL club that finished 6th last season.  Sterling and Palmer from City!  Even Lavia comes from the Prem.

There is a lot more experience of PL level football in this team than we had in 2012.  We should be pushing for top 4 minimum.
This idea that we crashed and are now starting as a bottom half PL team needing a lot of turning around is nonsense.

(plus of course if the club felt the young players are too young to handle a top 4 challenge, they could always have kept 3 or 4 seniors back and brought back Lukaku.  They didn't - it is the clubs choice to go with these players.)

I get what you're trying to say, but I don't believe any of these are comparable situations to what we're going through now.

Salah, Lukaku and KdB barely kicked a ball for us during their spells here, so are rather irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Courtios had to spend 3 years at Atletico Madrid out on loan before he arrived here at 23 and competed with a then 33 year old Cech. Willian was 25 when he signed, Azpilicueta 23, Matic 25 and Fabregas 28 respectively. 

All of those players signed for Chelsea teams that were more established and with a high floor level, with many themselves already in and around their mid-20's. While we still retained a fairly experienced nucleus to lead us forward during those changing of the guards. 

The present day squad is vastly younger side as whole, far less experienced, and we're trusting these younger players with bigger roles in the team. There really is no comparison to be made here, this is beyond anything we've experienced before and therefore is going to take more time. Not only that, but the league as a whole has gotten stronger and the "big four" now being expended upon. 

We were always unlikely to challenge for a top 4 place this season given the direction taken. Between the amount of player turnover had, the age demographic of our signings, the lack of experience within the squad, and the gaps we retain in a couple of key areas. That doesn't even take into account the injury issues on top, which has still prevented us from fielding our "best eleven". 

There wasn't the senior players to keep. Azpilicueta's legs had gone, that was visible last season. He chose to leave and return to Spain, and we did right by him in allowing that to happen. Who else was there? Auba? He was washed. Koulibaly could've gone either way, but wasn't a guarantee to hold his position and many here were happy for him to be sold off. Kante? Barely saw the pitch and quite clearly on the decline. Not really what we needed either. Jorginho? Again, many couldn't bin him off quick enough even through I believe his absence last season was very visible. Outside of those there really wasn't anyone else. As for Lukaku, he had no interest in being or playing here, it's as simple as that. Forcing him to stay, with his disruptive nature, would've been a negative. 

I don't disagree we could use a couple more senior options, but they still have to be visible enough on the pitch to be worthwhile. What we have done though is invest heavily into rebuilding our foundations, if we're then able to add a couple more established options on top in some key areas of need then I think we're going to look a lot better moving forward. Right now though, we're exactly what I'd expect us to be.

Edited November 6, 2023 by xceleryx
spelling

[kev61]

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

Personally, I don't think that we should have punted  Tuchel. I  thought that he was excellent, and should have been around a long time.

Yep a manager we should never let go.

Winning the Champions league was not a fluke.We played the best football in europe.

Admittedly we started to go down hill after that - was it his fault?..not at all imo.The players started having hissy fits.

I would have trusted Tuchel to get rid of of the poison  in the team and start afresh.What we did was to install a PE teacher,and then we go on a spending spree with a blind fold on.

As far as value for money is concerned we are at least 500 million pounds in the red.

[kev61]

3 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

I

Furthermore, we've already been through all the so called big names, so we'll have to take a punt next time anyway.

Every successful team in the history of the game have to have team spirit.

A manager is centre stage for that to happen.Forget xG and meaningless statistics.

You can't make a gold purse out of a sow's ear,but  you can make a team hard to beat(at least)with a team that plays as a unit.

[kev61]

On 04/11/2023 at 20:43, Chelsea_Matt said:

Tommy Tee again?

100%.Imo he is a coach without equal in today's game.

I must admit I was sucked into the nay sayers about TT.In reflection,  because of the players, he was made to look like he was responsible for the dip.

We need to promote team spirit and not pay average players superstars wages.It is the antithesis of team spirit.

Edited November 6, 2023 by kev61

[kev61]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

100%.Imo he is a coach without equal in today's game.

I must admit I was sucked into the nay sayers about TT.on reflection,  because of the players, he was made to look like he was responsible for the dip.

We need to promote team spirit and not pay average players superstars wages.It is the antithesis of team spirit.

 

[Max Fowler]

8 hours ago, xceleryx said:

And despite all of what you've put forward Max, there's still been heavy complaints in Germany about the football Tuchel plays since he joined.

If you think all Bayern fans are satisfied by his coaching you'd be gravely mistaken. But alas, when you're virtually the big dog in league that doesn't have the overall quality to match it's arguably harder to fail than it is to succeed in some manner.

I am well aware of that.

Of course, there is an irony with your above comment that we replaced him with a manager who failed to win the league with PSG.

[ROTG]

16 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I am well aware of that.

Of course, there is an irony with your above comment that we replaced him with a manager who failed to win the league with PSG.

Doesn't matter who is in charge according to @xceleryx the team is being rebuilt from the foundations so there is no issue with being a  mid table PL team for the next decade as it's a sustainable model, which is needed with all the potential duds on 8 year contracts.

Edited November 6, 2023 by ROTG

[Max Fowler]

8 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I generally agree, I'd have kept Tuchel also. 

That being said, with the manner in which we've gone about our rebuild I don't think he'd have been the right manager to develop a young side either. This was arguably the biggest upside when it came to hiring Poch, his work with young players and improving them. He may not be the man to lead us to glory, but with where we're at right now as a developing side I do feel as if he's a good choice to lay some important foundations. 

I think it is possible to hold these two seemingly contradictory positions at the same time.

1) We can still be grateful that we have owners with a plan, investing a lot of money in young players and rebuilding the stadium, and actually being engaged to address issues even if they have made a lot mistakes. 

2) Why did the owners not adjust the plan to fit Tuchel?

We had the third best manager in the world who had an unbelievable connection to our club. He had proved to be a winner and taken us close to and above Man City (albeit in the CL) and showed us the potential to close the gap quite quickly.

Yes, the football became stale and we needed a new plan, but we also needed new players to compete in the league.

Our club has been devoid of identity ever since. Why? I put a large part of that down to the fact that we knifed Tuchel in the back after he held the club together singlehandedly and the fans have been giving payback since that shocking moment.

(Tuchel an absolutely top guy who changed his cleaner's life by buying her a house in the Philippines and paying for her son's heart surgery - what did we do to deserve him?)

Liverpool stuck with Klopp and while they are not winning titles right now, they love supporting the club because he gives them meaning as well as being a highly successful manager.

So, we are where we are. 

But why couldn't we build a flexible plan where we say, invest £300 million in the best young talent (K. Paez etc.) and another £700 million in the best ready made players to win us the league? That way we could win immediate titles with Tuchel, boost our revenues and standing and continue to attract the best young talents moving forward. I believe Boehly and co. had a plan that was not going to be changed for the world and once Tuchel didn't fit with that it was bye bye.