Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Max Fowler]

34 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Doesn't matter who is in charge according to @xceleryx the team is being rebuilt from the foundations so there is no issue with being a  mid table PL team for the next decade as it's a sustainable model, which is needed with all the potential duds on 8 year contracts.

At least @xceleryx is honest about being okay with being mid-table for now. Always admired that. A huge problem is Poch talking up the title pre-season, the owners with eyes on CL finishes at least this season (and still thinking its possible despite our start). If the owners has just communicated, directly or through other channels, there might be some short-term pain, then they would look less incompetent.

I am all for optimism but I genuinely believe @xceleryx is more realistic than our owners who believe that we can do all things at once - replace our entire squad with young players and still be one of the best sides in the division.

[Chelsea_Matt]

7 hours ago, kev61 said:

100%.Imo he is a coach without equal in today's game.

I must admit I was sucked into the nay sayers about TT.In reflection,  because of the players, he was made to look like he was responsible for the dip.

We need to promote team spirit and not pay average players superstars wages.It is the antithesis of team spirit.

The problem would be how badly the original split was. But look I’m all for giving Poch every chance, he’s the coach I wanted. 

Something I don’t get, and @Mark Kelly touched on this. We looked superb in pre-season, and I know it’s just that BUT the contrast between then and now is crazy. Poch himself talked of succeeding straight away and now it’s all about giving the team time. 
 

As I’ve said before this isn’t about injuries to Nkunku, Reecey or Lavia. It’s a systemic problem within the club; of no identity or philosophy. I know it can take time because of the new players but we just did too much too soon. If only Marina and Cech could have stayed one more season. If if if. And here we are. 

[Dwmh]

9 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I get what you're trying to say, but I don't believe any of these are comparable situations to what we're going through now.

Good because I don't think I wrote it that well  🙂


I still think the Creamcakes are much more ambitious short term than you suggest.  They just got is very badly wrong.
And building it on failure with only Silva and James in the team who really knows success is going to be very difficult.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

The problem would be how badly the original split was. But look I’m all for giving Poch every chance, he’s the coach I wanted. 

Something I don’t get, and @Mark Kelly touched on this. We looked superb in pre-season, and I know it’s just that BUT the contrast between then and now is crazy. Poch himself talked of succeeding straight away and now it’s all about giving the team time. 
 

As I’ve said before this isn’t about injuries to Nkunku, Reecey or Lavia. It’s a systemic problem within the club; of no identity or philosophy. I know it can take time because of the new players but we just did too much too soon. If only Marina and Cech could have stayed one more season. If if if. And here we are. 

There is a simple explanation for preseason. Yes, Nkunku was a big loss. But also preseason is preseason - you get time, space on the ball, the pressure is low. Our young talented players can show their skills.

The Premier League is a different ball game. You get bullied, teams are well organized, low block after low block.

It's no wonder we are feeling the pressure when the competition seriously starts.

[Mark Kelly]

25 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

There is a simple explanation for preseason. Yes, Nkunku was a big loss. But also preseason is preseason - you get time, space on the ball, the pressure is low. Our young talented players can show their skills.

The Premier League is a different ball game. You get bullied, teams are well organized, low block after low block.

It's no wonder we are feeling the pressure when the competition seriously starts.

We played 4-3-3 with wing backs pre-season , won all the games and the moment the season started Poch shit the bed.

[paulw66]

17 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

We played 4-3-3 with wing backs pre-season , won all the games and the moment the season started Poch shit the bed.

That's a gross over simplification. 

No team in a pre season friendly sticks 10 men behind the ball, and barely ventures out of their half. 

We also had a fully fit James, Chilwell and Nkunku. 

It really is pointless to suggest that if Poch had just carried on*, then we'd have been much better off 

*even ignoring injurues

[Rob B]

10 hours ago, Dwmh said:

This time around I'd say the players are much more ready.  Caicedo, Sanchez and Colwill come from a PL club that finished 6th last season.  Sterling and Palmer from City!  Even Lavia comes from the Prem.

There is a lot more experience of PL level football in this team than we had in 2012.  We should be pushing for top 4 minimum.
This idea that we crashed and are now starting as a bottom half PL team needing a lot of turning around is nonsense.
 

Agreed - we are much better than the table suggests.  I know it's the table that ultimately matters but for most of the key metrics we are right up there.  e.g. 

• 2nd for possession %  (behind Man City)
• 4th for xGA
• 5th for least goals conceded
• 2nd for hitting the woodwork
• 5th for big chances missed etc.

All the data points towards a couple of goal-scorers transforming this team.  Nkunku might be one of them, we need to attain another in January and then see what Poch can do. 

[Chelsea_Matt]

23 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Agreed - we are much better than the table suggests.  I know it's the table that ultimately matters but for most of the key metrics we are right up there.  e.g. 

• 2nd for possession %  (behind Man City)
• 4th for xGA
• 5th for least goals conceded
• 2nd for hitting the woodwork
• 5th for big chances missed etc.

All the data points towards a couple of goal-scorers transforming this team.  Nkunku might be one of them, we need to attain another in January and then see what Poch can do. 

All very well but we were out of the top four race by October. 

[paulw66]

4 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

All very well but we were out of the top four race by October. 

Are we?

Normally 4th gets around 70 points. We would need 58 points from 28 games. 

Difficult, but far from impossible. 

[Max Fowler]

32 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Agreed - we are much better than the table suggests.  I know it's the table that ultimately matters but for most of the key metrics we are right up there.  e.g. 

• 2nd for possession %  (behind Man City)
• 4th for xGA
• 5th for least goals conceded
• 2nd for hitting the woodwork
• 5th for big chances missed etc.

All the data points towards a couple of goal-scorers transforming this team.  Nkunku might be one of them, we need to attain another in January and then see what Poch can do. 

Give over, Rob. 9th for xPoints, 8th for xG. 

At best that points to us being a mid-table side, having still had one of the easier starts to the season and with Spurs, Man City, Newcastle, Brighton, and Man United to come next.

Big chances missed and woodwork stats are not ones we should be proud of. They point to the fact that we have failed in recruitment and won't be able to score the goals we should.

Be patient, but to claim we are "right up there" is backed up by no statistic other than our defence where we are decent.

Possession means nothing when we pass it aimlessly from side to side.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Dwmh]

40 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Agreed - we are much better than the table suggests.  I know it's the table that ultimately matters but for most of the key metrics we are right up there.  e.g. 

• 2nd for possession %  (behind Man City)
• 4th for xGA
• 5th for least goals conceded
• 2nd for hitting the woodwork
• 5th for big chances missed etc.

All the data points towards a couple of goal-scorers transforming this team.  Nkunku might be one of them, we need to attain another in January and then see what Poch can do. 

Oh I am not sure we are just about to turn the corner - I thing we are probably not much better than our positions and there seem to be multiple long term reasons for us sub-performing - they aren't going away this season or next.
Lack of organisation, dreadful finishing, an inability for anyone bar Sterling to get into the box as an extra man, an injury record that does not improve, a lack of bottle if we go behind or go in front.  All these strike me as being systemic permanent issues, not things that will disappear overnight.

Arguably our problem is an overinvestment in ball winners and ball winning effort in games which leads to high possession but low creativity and low risk taking with the ball.
The real issues is that we are 2nd in possession but 11th in goals scored and 9th in xG.  It is not simply missing chances that is the problem, it is creating them.  And yet teams faced so far have been weak.

The solution though would be to "bring back Ziyech and Havertz" or similar, and promptly lose the thing that is working well.

The owners want a 100 point team in 38 games
The manager has chosen to play mid-table football where a point won is a point won.
The owners thing a point won is 2 our of the 14 you can afford to lose all season.
Deep problems

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Dwmh

[Dwmh]

19 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Are we?

Normally 4th gets around 70 points. We would need 58 points from 28 games. 

Difficult, but far from impossible. 

a lot harder from the 28 games we have to play.  Starting with the top 2 this week.
57 from 26 if we are lucky.

[paulw66]

4 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

a lot harder from the 28 games we have to play.  Starting with the top 2 this week.

yes and no. We have played 3 of the current top 5. After this horrible run, December and Jan (until Liverpool on the 31st) doesn't look too bad at all

[Bison]

5 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

yes and no. We have played 3 of the current top 5. After this horrible run, December and Jan (until Liverpool on the 31st) doesn't look too bad at all

We drew with Bournemouth and lost home games to Forest, Villa and Brentford. Any hope of a decent season was lost by picking up 1 point from that 12.

There are no 'decent run of games' or 'winnable games' for this club any more and that has been the case for 15 months.

[Dwmh]

2 minutes ago, Bison said:

We drew with Bournemouth and lost home games to Forest, Villa and Brentford. Any hope of a decent season was lost by picking up 1 point from that 12.

There are no 'decent run of games' or 'winnable games' for this club any more and that has been the case for 15 months.

We picked up 10 points from teams placed 15th, 17th, 18th and 19th  but still have only 12 points and one point above 16th.

Arguably we are doing very well at rolling over the bottom teams, much like last season, where 10 of our points came againt top 10 teams, but 34 came from the other 9  bottom half teams.
 

last season's only win against a top 10 team:  

April fools day

[Mark Kelly]

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

That's a gross over simplification. 

No team in a pre season friendly sticks 10 men behind the ball, and barely ventures out of their half. 

We also had a fully fit James, Chilwell and Nkunku. 

It really is pointless to suggest that if Poch had just carried on*, then we'd have been much better off 

*even ignoring injurues

Its the mindset not the personnel , he waved the metaphorical white flag the moment the season started. 

[paulw66]

47 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

We picked up 10 points from teams placed 15th, 17th, 18th and 19th  but still have only 12 points and one point above 16th.

Arguably we are doing very well at rolling over the bottom teams, much like last season, where 10 of our points came againt top 10 teams, but 34 came from the other 9  bottom half teams.
 

last season's only win against a top 10 team:  

April fools day

we lost at home to Villa.

Am I missing something?

[Dwmh]

4 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

we lost at home to Villa.

Am I missing something?

Sorry - xg can be confusing...  and I put the wrong game up.
should have been this 
where we won our only game against the top 10  but got outplayed.  
Turns out I am the April fool.

[paulw66]

10 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Sorry - xg can be confusing...  and I put the wrong game up.
should have been this 
where we won our only game against the top 10  but got outplayed.  
Turns out I am the April fool.

and by that logic, we lost the game when we even more outplayed them

[Dwmh]

39 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

and by that logic, we lost the game when we even more outplayed them

...  which was not my intention to reveal  🙂
Still the main point remains, 10 points from 20 games against the top 10 suggests we really can't be optimistic for the rest of this season too.

[Chelsea_Matt]

3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Are we?

Normally 4th gets around 70 points. We would need 58 points from 28 games. 

Difficult, but far from impossible. 

As senile Sleepy Joe would say, “c’mon, man!”

[Rob B]

4 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Give over, Rob. 9th for xPoints, 8th for xG. 

At best that points to us being a mid-table side, having still had one of the easier starts to the season and with Spurs, Man City, Newcastle, Brighton, and Man United to come next.

Big chances missed and woodwork stats are not ones we should be proud of. They point to the fact that we have failed in recruitment and won't be able to score the goals we should.

Be patient, but to claim we are "right up there" is backed up by no statistic other than our defence where we are decent.

Possession means nothing when we pass it aimlessly from side to side.

I've never heard of xPoints.  Isn't that just saying if you don't put your chances away you won't pick up points?  i.e. an output of the other metrics..

And I'm far from proud of those statistics!!  Believe me, I think it is nigh-on negligence that we've spent the money we have without recruiting a top level striker, I just don't think we are that far away in the other nine or ten positions.   I'm genuinely of the view that 80% of our play is decent, and it generally falls down in the latter part of the pitch.   Signing a world class striker and getting Nkunku back could well change that - is all I'm saying...

4 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Lack of organisation, dreadful finishing, an inability for anyone bar Sterling to get into the box as an extra man, an injury record that does not improve, a lack of bottle if we go behind or go in front.  All these strike me as being systemic permanent issues, not things that will disappear overnight.

Arguably our problem is an overinvestment in ball winners and ball winning effort in games which leads to high possession but low creativity and low risk taking with the ball.
The real issues is that we are 2nd in possession but 11th in goals scored and 9th in xG.  It is not simply missing chances that is the problem, it is creating them.  And yet teams faced so far have been weak.
 

Not sure we lack organisation.  And injuries aside (which is very valid) I think a lot of your other points stem from not having a goalscorer.  For example, the team will know full well, if we go a goal behind, it's curtains.  It's not lacking bottle, it's just the skillset.  We went into the season with Nicolas Jackson and Broja as our main strikers!? 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Rob B said:

I've never heard of xPoints.  Isn't that just saying if you don't put your chances away you won't pick up points?  i.e. an output of the other metrics.

Yes.  

1 hour ago, Rob B said:

Not sure we lack organisation.  And injuries aside (which is very valid) I think a lot of your other points stem from not having a goalscorer.  For example, the team will know full well, if we go a goal behind, it's curtains.  It's not lacking bottle, it's just the skillset.  We went into the season with Nicolas Jackson and Broja as our main strikers!? 

If we were top 6 on xG I could agree with you.  We are 8th or 9th (depends on source) and that isn't explained by poor finishing.
Not creating is a bigger problem than missing them.

Orgainisation?  There is a reasonable understanding of how to play the FBs advanced or not which I don't think other managers got.
There was early on a very Vertical approach of going forward with 30 yard vertical balls to feet, but that has all gone now, even against Blackburn.  Now we have no idea how to play out of our own half even when there is no press, especially if there is no press.

Corner routines?  I'm please to see Gallagher gives a signal, that always is a start. But no one is moving until they see where the ball is going.  Easy to see when there is corner organisation - 2 players run round-about routes to get to (or try to get to) the place the ball ends up, and another starts there and makes a diversionary run away.

It all reminds me of Lampard when the players went back to Sarriball because of muscle memory and the lack of anything clearer in training.

[kev61]

11 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Sorry - xg can be confusing...  and I put the wrong game up.
should have been this 
where we won our only game against the top 10  but got outplayed.  
Turns out I am the April fool.

Don't be too hard on yourself.When you suffer with DAIS(delusional artificial intelligence syndrome)it is inevitable that there will a malfunction from time to time.

[Thiago97]

I think if ever there was a game that summed up the task Poch has right now, well it was this last night. 
Clearly, no manager has a free pass and that cannot be the case. 
However, this game perfectly illustrated why he needs time and our backing. I think it also showed up how nearly every manager out there, will find this job incredibly difficult in the short term. 
The evidence was laid out bare and in front of everyone last night.