Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

Why is De Zerbi not a sensible response? Yes he has his risks, but so did Poch, so does any manager barring maybe Guardiola, Klopp, Tuchel and Ancelotti. I think he's destined for Man City if Guardiola leaves. He could fail easily with us but Poch has clearly failed so at least we're rolling the dice on someone different. And I don't think its a ridiculous proposal because De Zerbi is incredibly highly rated and worth a chance. And please don't tell me about his risks, I know he has risks, I have acknowledged he has risks. Maybe stepping up to Chelsea is too big a jump given the state we are in but at least it's someone other than Poch.

In short, I don't accept we need to tick every box at the moment to choose someone new. Poch never ticked every box in my eyes. So we will always choose someone mitigated unless it's one of those elite few.

It may well be worth noting the De Zerbi is only 6 points ahead of a Chelsea side in absolute disarray. 

[Max Fowler]

7 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

It may well be worth noting the De Zerbi is only 6 points ahead of a Chelsea side in absolute disarray. 

Having lost two of their absolutely key players in the summer, with injuries of their own, playing for the first time in Europe and with a pitiful budget compared to ours. I think he’s doing pretty well all things considered.

[Mark Kelly]

16 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Having lost two of their absolutely key players in the summer, with injuries of their own, playing for the first time in Europe and with a pitiful budget compared to ours. I think he’s doing pretty well all things considered.

Just be careful what you wish for Max , having said that , I think anyone would be a step up from Potterino .

We've now lost more games in 2023 than we did in 2021 and 2022 combined apparently.

Remember when he said he'd like to have them in for training and cancel the two days off they had scheduled?

This is what happens when you don't follow through with your threats , in my opinion because he's a coward. 

 

[ROTG]

43 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Why is De Zerbi not a sensible response? Yes he has his risks, but so did Poch, so does any manager barring maybe Guardiola, Klopp, Tuchel and Ancelotti. I think he's destined for Man City if Guardiola leaves. He could fail easily with us but Poch has clearly failed so at least we're rolling the dice on someone different. And I don't think its a ridiculous proposal because De Zerbi is incredibly highly rated and worth a chance. And please don't tell me about his risks, I know he has risks, I have acknowledged he has risks. Maybe stepping up to Chelsea is too big a jump given the state we are in but at least it's someone other than Poch.

In short, I don't accept we need to tick every box at the moment to choose someone new. Poch never ticked every box in my eyes. So we will always choose someone mitigated unless it's one of those elite few.

Please Please no more dross from Brighton - Mid table team, with a mid table coach which is not an upgrade on Poch 

[McCreadie]

Gallagher is better under Poch

Sterling has also been better than last season.

Cucurella has been better under Poch

Mudryk is also getting better albeit slowly

None of these are ripping up trees but they are all better than last season.

The rest are injured or on a par with last year or were not here. James needs to play his way into form. 

 

 

[Max Fowler]

9 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Please Please no more dross from Brighton - Mid table team, with a mid table coach which is not an upgrade on Poch 

It’s childish to rule out someone based on a club. We need to try something or someone. You suggest someone better.

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

It’s childish to rule out someone based on a club. We need to try something or someone. You suggest someone better.

I think he's recently been advocating for Jimmy Young. 

[Bigpokey24]

i think we should give him at least this season .  We've suffered in two seasons when it comes to injuries.  If we do not see  a major improvement by the new year , then the board must start thinking of plan B. He was only given a 2 year contract  plus an optional year. I won't mind looking at Unai Emery  if we deicide to go for another option .

[Max Fowler]

 

 

[McCreadie]

2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

Personally , I've wanted him gone for absolutely ages as he isn't what we thought we were getting , his Spurs side were a tough side to play , entrenched in the dark arts and I was hoping to see that from him and we resolutely haven't , in fact it's the opposite , he's bending over to appease the referees and we are hilariously easy to play against .

We can play some nice stuff and look full of vim and vigour on occasion and it makes you hope that things will change but they never do.

I don't think I've ever seen a Chelsea side look so bad when playing badly if you get my drift , it's not just looking a bit off colour it's a complete dereliction of duty and lack of any redeeming quality and is quite bizarre 

That wasn't really aimed at you Mark, you have been consistent throughout. I have a different view of him and expectation of where he can get us to by the end of the season (if he is allowed to make it that far). We were always going to be inconsistent this season, with the turnover of players. The real problem is that we have now spent 18 months losing and it is a) becoming a nasty habit and, as a result of that, b) becoming acceptable in the changing room, after 20 years of the total opposite. The culture of winning that we had built over that whole time, through many different managers and players, is finished. And it is going to be very difficult to get back.

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

Why is De Zerbi not a sensible response? Yes he has his risks, but so did Poch, so does any manager barring maybe Guardiola, Klopp, Tuchel and Ancelotti. I think he's destined for Man City if Guardiola leaves. He could fail easily with us but Poch has clearly failed so at least we're rolling the dice on someone different. And I don't think its a ridiculous proposal because De Zerbi is incredibly highly rated and worth a chance. And please don't tell me about his risks, I know he has risks, I have acknowledged he has risks. Maybe stepping up to Chelsea is too big a jump given the state we are in but at least it's someone other than Poch.

In short, I don't accept we need to tick every box at the moment to choose someone new. Poch never ticked every box in my eyes. So we will always choose someone mitigated unless it's one of those elite few.

Sensible was probably the wrong word from my side. The overall point I am making, I think it is very hard to find the right candidate who fits for what the club wants, without their being some sort of conflict of interest, or potential clashes further down the line.

De Zerbi is an obvious response. I have had this debate with Martin over and over on De Zerbi.  He has done well at Brighton, his football is nice to watch, but he still has a lot to prove.

You are Poch bashing and want him out. Poch is 2 wins from 2 games against De Zerbi this season ! Brighton have had some poor results this season, which is in part to teams understanding how to play against them now.  Teams are starting to engage less with them, cos that is exactly what they want. We are still quite a weak outfit in my mind, yet I thought we bullied them a bit at the weekend.

De Zerbi is a good young manager who is making his way in the game. His achievements are less than Poch achievements as a manager, even for those who want to rewrite history and forget the title at PSG.  Poch still has the stronger body of work in his CV than De Zerbi at present. You are not alone in casting loving eyes in De Zerbi direction Max, he overwhelmingly won the poll of manager of the season on here for last season. I said at the time it was bizarre for him to win that so clearly. I think people answered a different question in that poll, they answered who they would like to be the next Chelsea manager (this was before Poch)

Brighton are not defensively solid this season, probably in part due to playing an attacking brand of pretty football. Does that really sound that different to what we are seeing this season ?

[Dwmh]

Not a fan of De Zerbi, who I think benefited from what the manager and scouts before him set up (when they had a limited budget and a team that could not risk dropping 30 points to turn it around).
And frankly changing the manager midstream now is missing the analogy - we needed taller horses before we entered the water.

Poch has not caused out downfall.  Our downfall left us with a choice between Lampard and Poch.

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

It may well be worth noting the De Zerbi is only 6 points ahead of a Chelsea side in absolute disarray. 

6 points is a hell of a gap in the middle of the prem.
Look at how many are just 3 points below us.

 

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Dwmh said:

Not a fan of De Zerbi, who I think benefited from what the manager and scouts before him set up (when they had a limited budget and a team that could not risk dropping 30 points to turn it around).
And frankly changing the manager midstream now is missing the analogy - we needed taller horses before we entered the water.

Poch has not caused out downfall.  Our downfall left us with a choice between Lampard and Poch.

6 points is a hell of a gap in the middle of the prem.
Look at how many are just 3 points below us.

 

Don't worry , we'll be there soon.

But I get your point .

[Max Fowler]

5 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Sensible was probably the wrong word from my side. The overall point I am making, I think it is very hard to find the right candidate who fits for what the club wants, without their being some sort of conflict of interest, or potential clashes further down the line.

De Zerbi is an obvious response. I have had this debate with Martin over and over on De Zerbi.  He has done well at Brighton, his football is nice to watch, but he still has a lot to prove.

You are Poch bashing and want him out. Poch is 2 wins from 2 games against De Zerbi this season ! Brighton have had some poor results this season, which is in part to teams understanding how to play against them now.  Teams are starting to engage less with them, cos that is exactly what they want. We are still quite a weak outfit in my mind, yet I thought we bullied them a bit at the weekend.

De Zerbi is a good young manager who is making his way in the game. His achievements are less than Poch achievements as a manager, even for those who want to rewrite history and forget the title at PSG.  Poch still has the stronger body of work in his CV than De Zerbi at present. You are not alone in casting loving eyes in De Zerbi direction Max, he overwhelmingly won the poll of manager of the season on here for last season. I said at the time it was bizarre for him to win that so clearly. I think people answered a different question in that poll, they answered who they would like to be the next Chelsea manager (this was before Poch)

Brighton are not defensively solid this season, probably in part due to playing an attacking brand of pretty football. Does that really sound that different to what we are seeing this season ?

Yes, but Brighton had injuries - far worse than we had for that game: Fati, Lamptey, Webster, Estupinan, March, Milner, Welbeck, Enciso, Mitoma (plus Dahoud and Dunk suspended - okay a couple of those featured off the bench).

Brighton had a net expenditure balance of +100 million in the summer - i.e., they made that in profit from sales vs. purchases. We had a net balance of -200 million. Again, but I am repeating myself, they lost two of their most important players who they wanted to keep. They are playing every Thursday, having qualified for Europe for the first time in their history, we have one game a week.

In short - he's still done a great job this season. It is Brighton after all, not Chelsea. And I disagree with your assessment that we bullied them. I thought they made silly mistakes but outplayed us for most of the game. We capitalised well in moments.

Poch may have more experience but I now think we need to change whatever happens. We could go for someone with more experience but I would rather go for the exciting option in De Zerbi. It could go wrong but at least we're moving forward, at least we're being ruthless, trying something different and cutting out what isn't working. And Poch simply isn't working.

[blueboy1905]

51 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Gallagher is better under Poch

Sterling has also been better than last season.

Cucurella has been better under Poch

Mudryk is also getting better albeit slowly

None of these are ripping up trees but they are all better than last season.

The rest are injured or on a par with last year or were not here. James needs to play his way into form. 

 

 

That is a pretty low bar isn't it? The sort that Warwick Davis would be standing under.

[Thiago97]

5 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Yes, but Brighton had injuries - far worse than we had for that game: Fati, Lamptey, Webster, Estupinan, March, Milner, Welbeck, Enciso, Mitoma (plus Dahoud and Dunk suspended - okay a couple of those featured off the bench).

Brighton had a net expenditure balance of +100 million in the summer - i.e., they made that in profit from sales vs. purchases. We had a net balance of -200 million. Again, but I am repeating myself, they lost two of their most important players who they wanted to keep. They are playing every Thursday, having qualified for Europe for the first time in their history, we have one game a week.

In short - he's still done a great job this season. It is Brighton after all, not Chelsea. And I disagree with your assessment that we bullied them. I thought they made silly mistakes but outplayed us for most of the game. We capitalised well in moments.

Poch may have more experience but I now think we need to change whatever happens. We could go for someone with more experience but I would rather go for the exciting option in De Zerbi. It could go wrong but at least we're moving forward, at least we're being ruthless, trying something different and cutting out what isn't working. And Poch simply isn't working.

We’ve had injuries all season. Why is it a good excuse for them and not us ? Brighton outplay the majority of teams. I think we have outplayed many teams this season. Their results are slightly better than ours.  They have not had a clean sheet in a few months. He also oversaw them lose at home to the 3rd best team in Sweden and get thumped 6-0 at Villa.

I don’t want to sound harsh picking out isolated incidents, I likeDe Zerbi, but everyone looks at him through the rosiest of tinted glasses. They ignore some of the more questionable parts of his regime, and seem to want to push everything positive down to him. Despite him taking over arguably the best run club in the league. 

[JaneB]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of De Zerbi, I don't want us poaching anyone else from Brighton.  I feel uncomfortable with it, they shouldn't be our 'feeder' club and it hasn't exactly been a resounding success so far.

I'm not completely writing Poch off because changing managers every 5 minutes makes us a laughing stock and I don't think it's as easy as that anyway.

Every new manager is a false dawn and who would be available anyway?  

[Dwmh]

4 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

We’ve had injuries all season. Why is it a good excuse for them and not us ? Brighton outplay the majority of teams.

18,18,19,19,21,22,23,25,31,35
and none of them cost £100m either.

[blueboy1905]

32 minutes ago, JaneB said:

Whatever the rights and wrongs of De Zerbi, I don't want us poaching anyone else from Brighton.  I feel uncomfortable with it, they shouldn't be our 'feeder' club and it hasn't exactly been a resounding success so far.

I'm not completely writing Poch off because changing managers every 5 minutes makes us a laughing stock and I don't think it's as easy as that anyway.

Every new manager is a false dawn and who would be available anyway?  

I've think we've passed the point of us being a laughing stock !!!

[Max Fowler]

13 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

We’ve had injuries all season. Why is it a good excuse for them and not us ? Brighton outplay the majority of teams. I think we have outplayed many teams this season. Their results are slightly better than ours.  They have not had a clean sheet in a few months. He also oversaw them lose at home to the 3rd best team in Sweden and get thumped 6-0 at Villa.

I don’t want to sound harsh picking out isolated incidents, I likeDe Zerbi, but everyone looks at him through the rosiest of tinted glasses. They ignore some of the more questionable parts of his regime, and seem to want to push everything positive down to him. Despite him taking over arguably the best run club in the league. 

I have told you precisely why but you're not listening:

1) We had 9 injuries and suspensions to their 13.
2) Of those out, only 3 - James, Chilwell and Nkunku are starters for us. They had 6 starters out - Dunk, Webster, Estupinan, March, Fati, Mitoma at the very least.
3) They had to rest other key players (Gross, Joao Pedro) because they play on Thursdays and we only play one game a week.
4) They lost two of their most important players in the summer because they were forced to - and we didn't.
5) They are Brighton and we are Chelsea. They spent -100 million and we spent +200 million in the summer.

I am not looking at it through rose-tinted spectacles. I have said De Zerbi is a risk three times now. No guarantee it pays off. But any manager is a risk, and I am done with Pochettino. If Postecoglou was available now you would say it's rose-tinted spectacles. He's a risk. Jose's a risk. Nagelsmann's a risk. One man and his dog spot's a risk. Anyone but Guardiola is a risk.

You think we should try longer with Pochettino, I don't. We have different opinions, fine. But when people come up with different options, there's no point in poo pooing them as if not nearly every manager doesn't have some concerns associated with them. Poch did - he bottled the league with PSG, bottled the CL with Spurs, honestly has done nothing in his career to suggest he is an elite manager like the media says. I always said that but thought he could be good for this transition.

But you will say De Zerbi has done even less than Poch - okay. Where I am coming from is this - the data is in now. We have tried Poch and he has categorically failed. You will say he needs more time, fair enough. The performances under Poch have not been great all season, results worse. We are only slightly better than last season.

Any manager is a bit of an unknown but becomes known once hired. Potter was an unknown - it became obvious (known) to us that he was not up to it. When is that time with Poch? For me that time is now. He is a known quantity - not up to it, done, finished here, failed. De Zerbi is still an unknown, a roll of the dice - could easily go wrong but at least we're in with a chance. We need to keep moving and we need to be ruthless. We need to teach the players that failure is not an option and heads will roll.

[Thiago97]

20 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I

 

You think we should try longer with Pochettino, I don't. We have different opinions, fine. But when people come up with different options, there's no point in poo pooing them as if not nearly every manager doesn't have some concerns associated with them. Poch did - he bottled the league with PSG, bottled the CL with Spurs, honestly has done nothing in his career to suggest he is an elite manager like the media says. I always said that but thought he could be good for this transition.

But you will say De Zerbi has done even less than Poch - okay. Where I am coming from is this - the data is in now. We have tried Poch and he has categorically failed. You will say he needs more time, fair enough. The performances under Poch have not been great all season, results worse. We are only slightly better than last season.

Any manager is a bit of an unknown but becomes known once hired. Potter was an unknown - it became obvious (known) to us that he was not up to it. When is that time with Poch? For me that time is now. He is a known quantity - not up to it, done, finished here, failed. De Zerbi is still an unknown, a roll of the dice - could easily go wrong but at least we're in with a chance. We need to keep moving and we need to be ruthless. We need to teach the players that failure is not an option and heads will roll.

I won't copy the whole post as it is quite long. So I will just pick out the highlighted parts, cos much of the other post is stuff I already know and am aware of, it dont really add anything to the discussion.

Yes - I believe we should persist with Poch because we are at the point where we almost have to , unless the situation becomes completely unbearable. We are not in that situation now. I would be saying the same thing regardless of who the manager is right now, because we cannot continue just ripping things up and expecting a different outcome with such a young squad of players. I genuinely don't believe there is any manager out there who would make an immediate impact/improvement, with the exception of probably Jose. i think he would come in and make that immediate impact, but it would be at conflict with the current direction of the club (younger players, data driven, pretty football). So if I cannot see any short term immediate impact, I believe we may as well wait and see how the situation progresses with the current manager. To claim he has categorically failed after 15 league games is just ridiculous. We have drew with the top three in the league, and should have won at least one of them.

As for heads rolling, maybe some of that should be the players too? The basic mistakes on display last night is not down to the coach. Maybe the players need to be looking at themselves and realising that they are coming up short with what is required to be a possession based footballer in the PL.

 

 

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

It’s childish to rule out someone based on a club. We need to try something or someone. You suggest someone better.

Poch is the coach and the club should stick with him. That said upstairs needs a massive reset, and bring my in a DoF who liaises and understands the coaches and squad needs for the team to go on an upward trajectory, and fire a bunch of unqualified scouts from the championship who have recruited and paying over the top fees for very average/ poor players. 

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

arguably the best run club in the league. 

With the help of TB putting Tony Bloom on the cover of Forbes 😀

[Max Fowler]

19 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I won't copy the whole post as it is quite long. So I will just pick out the highlighted parts, cos much of the other post is stuff I already know and am aware of, it dont really add anything to the discussion.

Yes - I believe we should persist with Poch because we are at the point where we almost have to , unless the situation becomes completely unbearable. We are not in that situation now. I would be saying the same thing regardless of who the manager is right now, because we cannot continue just ripping things up and expecting a different outcome with such a young squad of players. I genuinely don't believe there is any manager out there who would make an immediate impact/improvement, with the exception of probably Jose. i think he would come in and make that immediate impact, but it would be at conflict with the current direction of the club (younger players, data driven, pretty football). So if I cannot see any short term immediate impact, I believe we may as well wait and see how the situation progresses with the current manager. To claim he has categorically failed after 15 league games is just ridiculous. We have drew with the top three in the league, and should have won at least one of them.

As for heads rolling, maybe some of that should be the players too? The basic mistakes on display last night is not down to the coach. Maybe the players need to be looking at themselves and realising that they are coming up short with what is required to be a possession based footballer in the PL.

Sacked tomorrow, you would say Poch has failed. Maybe you would say we moved too early, but history would say he has failed. He would already be gone if Roman was still in charge. For me it is not just the results, but the manner of recent performances. Last night was a 0 out of 10. There is no excuse for that performance. There is no coming back from that.

As I said, that is the straw that broke the camel's back. Yes, we need new players and new owners. They are the main problem. Binning Poch is an act of anarchy as I said - a knife in the back of the owners' plan and a call for the necessity of a new plan, and new owners.

[Chelsea_Matt]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Sacked tomorrow, you would say Poch has failed. Maybe you would say we moved too early, but history would say he has failed. He would already be gone if Roman was still in charge. For me it is not just the results, but the manner of recent performances. Last night was a 0 out of 10. There is no excuse for that performance. There is no coming back from that.

As I said, that is the straw that broke the camel's back. Yes, we need new players and new owners. They are the main problem. Binning Poch is an act of anarchy as I said - a knife in the back of the owners' plan and a call for the necessity of a new plan, and new owners.

I so want it to work but I’m having doubts. 
But Max, that’s three managers who couldn’t get the team playing. The players are also responsible.