Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

I so want it to work but I’m having doubts. 
But Max, that’s three managers who couldn’t get the team playing. The players are also responsible.

Potter was completely out of his depth and Lampard was an interim. I actually have most sympathy for the players. I think it's really hard to come into an unstable club and many of them would look miles better elsewhere, or simply aren't up to it and that isn't their fault. But Poch said yes to this project - he agreed to the terms unlike Nagelsmann and Tuchel. He is a representation of this project - he is enabling it and it's hard to have any sympathy for that. He got a duff hand but it was the duff hand he agreed to. He should have put a red line down - "I am not joining without some immediate PL experience being added to this squad immediately". He didn't, only speculated about needing that in the media and now he is paying the price.

And I am sick of his excuses. Injuries, tiredness "the boys gave everything", blah blah blah. It is literally verbatim what Potter started spouting to the media. Yes there are mitigating factors but when a manager starts giving constant excuses like that it spells red flags all over the place. He looked helpless, hapless, dejected - his body language woeful. He dug the players out against Newcastle, last night he gave up. You start giving constant excuses like that and you are done for.

[Chelsea_Matt]

4 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Potter was completely out of his depth and Lampard was an interim. I actually have most sympathy for the players. I think it's really hard to come into an unstable club and many of them would look miles better elsewhere, or simply aren't up to it and that isn't their fault. But Poch said yes to this project - he agreed to the terms unlike Nagelsmann and Tuchel. He is a representation of this project - he is enabling it and it's hard to have any sympathy for that. He got a duff hand but it was the duff hand he agreed to. He should have put a red line down - "I am not joining without some immediate PL experience being added to this squad immediately". He didn't, only speculated about needing that in the media and now he is paying the price.

And I am sick of his excuses. Injuries, tiredness "the boys gave everything", blah blah blah. It is literally verbatim what Potter started spouting to the media. Yes there are mitigating factors but when a manager starts giving constant excuses like that it spells red flags all over the place. He looked helpless, hapless, dejected - his body language woeful. He dug the players out against Newcastle, last night he gave up. You start giving constant excuses like that and you are done for.

The second point I’m worried about in view of last night. Poch seemed lost and that is a huge, huge concern. 

[chara]

I'm done with The Poch....hate feeling that but he isn't going to get better...once I turn that's it.....

The real question as everyone comes down to is who next?..forget the latest "Brighton Express",,, oh and get a midfield that frightens the opposition and stays on the pitch for 90 minutes plus the whatever time the officials decide....that time bias is totally in the hands of faceless and cowardly corrupt in many ways refs/officials. (I mean corrupt in a moral sense as much as anything) the SAF added time is now an accepted reality ..and manipulated!

[east lower]

9 minutes ago, chara said:

I'm done with The Poch....hate feeling that but he isn't going to get better...once I turn that's it.....

The real question as everyone comes down to is who next?..forget the latest "Brighton Express",,, oh and get a midfield that frightens the opposition and stays on the pitch for 90 minutes plus the whatever time the officials decide....that time bias is totally in the hands of faceless and cowardly corrupt in many ways refs/officials. (I mean corrupt in a moral sense as much as anything) the SAF added time is now an accepted reality ..and manipulated!

Chara - We belong to the same club as regards the coach then.

As to who's the next victim? How about the Argentina National Team Coach, would certainly know how to get the best out of Enzo and I thought their team was one of the better organised (except for the opening game!!)

[Max Fowler]

Here is the reality now.

Potter had our joint worst points per game of any manager in the Premier League era, with 1.27.

Now add Poch to that list - 1.27 PPM. Fail to win at Everton and he will be alone as our worst Premier League Manager based on points per match.

Potter lasted 22 Premier League games, Poch is on 15 now.

The likes of @Thiago97 say it is ridiculous to call for his head after 15 but the stats speak for themselves.

He would already be gone twice under Roman. We are heading into or beyond Graham Potter territory.
 

[Thiago97]

14 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Here is the reality now.

Potter had our joint worst points per game of any manager in the Premier League era, with 1.27.

Now add Poch to that list - 1.27 PPM. Fail to win at Everton and he will be alone as our worst Premier League Manager based on points per match.

Potter lasted 22 Premier League games, Poch is on 15 now.

The likes of @Thiago97 say it is ridiculous to call for his head after 15 but the stats speak for themselves.

He would already be gone twice under Roman. We are heading into or beyond Graham Potter territory.
 

So what if we win our next two games? Don’t tell me, it all goes quiet again until the next poor performance, then it starts again. 
Last night was dreadful, our worst of the season with Newcastle. No getting away from that and no defending it.

Some just seem content on living on this knife edge of 2-3 games all the time.  It’s just completely short term knee jerk thinking. 

[McCreadie]

You literally change your mind every week.

Of course it is ridiculous. It's 15 games.

What shall we give the next guy? 10 games? 5 games? Maybe we just give him a one game rolling contract and see how we are doing at half time.

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, Thiago97 said:

So what if we win our next two games? Don’t tell me, it all goes quiet again until the next poor performance, then it starts again. 
Last night was dreadful, our worst of the season with Newcastle. No getting away from that and no defending it.

Some just seem content on living on this knife edge of 2-3 games all the time.  It’s just completely short term knee jerk thinking. 

Not true - I have been backing him for the last two months at the very least.

I have backed him consistently when others had already given up hope.

This is a new low as I said, worse than Newcastle - and for me a tipping point.

You are resorting to "what ifs". What if Nkunku had been here?  What if we won all our games for the rest of the season?

What if Potter had won all his games? What if we didn't have so many injuries? What if, what if, what if?

The reality - the joint worst record of any Premier League manager, goes way beyond "what ifs" I am afraid.

[Max Fowler]

4 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

You literally change your mind every week.

Of course it is ridiculous. It's 15 games.

What shall we give the next guy? 10 games? 5 games? Maybe we just give him a one game rolling contract and see how we are doing at half time.

Find me the last time I said I was not behind Poch. 2 months ago at the very least.

Unlike you who literally gives nothing but a one-sided, two sentence answer to any problem.

Do you believe then - 22 was too few for Potter? Do you believe Potter should still be here?

[Thiago97]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

Not true - I have been backing him for the last two months at the very least.

I have backed him consistently when others had already given up hope.

This is a new low as I said, worse than Newcastle - and for me a tipping point.

You are resorting to "what ifs". What if Nkunku had been here?  What if we won all our games for the rest of the season?

What if Potter had won all his games? What if we didn't have so many injuries? What if, what if, what if?

The reality - the joint worst record of any Premier League manager, goes way beyond "what ifs" I am afraid.

It was not a what if, it was a genuine question, and one I know the answer too. We win our next two games, you will not be calling for him to be sacked. I get last night was a low point or a tipping point for you. I get you have loosely backed him in recent weeks.

However, we win the next two, you will not be calling for him to be gone again. 
 

This is what we are right now. Inconsistent, game by game with a young set of players. We all want this to change, and it needs to change. It won’t change in the short term due to a change of manager. The same issues will still exist. 

[Dwmh]

26 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Here is the reality now.

Potter had our joint worst points per game of any manager in the Premier League era, with 1.27.

Now add Poch to that list - 1.27 PPM. Fail to win at Everton and he will be alone as our worst Premier League Manager based on points per match.

 

The obvious retort to that is that last season the managers took a 74 point team to 44 points. Potter's average implies 48 points for the whole season.
Poch's average also implies 48 points for the season with a team that last year had 44.
Poch is actually improving the team over last season.  And he is improving it a lot compared to the last 11 games where the average was 0.37 a game.

The damage had already been done before Poch arrived. The damage meant that only Poch would come.
You are trying to shoot the horse after it has bolted.

6 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

However, we win the next two, you will not be calling for him to be gone again. 

Our next 6 are certainly winnable and are a much better test of whether we are a 44 point team again or a 54 point team than playing at OT ever was.

7 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

This is what we are right now. Inconsistent, game by game with a young set of players. We all want this to change, and it needs to change. It won’t change in the short term due to a change of manager. The same issues will still exist. 

No.  We are remarkably consistent.  Amazingly consistent.
And the overnight change happened.  As predicted by many and @xceleryx in particular.  It won't suddenly reverse.
But I agree the name of the manager won't make much difference.

[Max Fowler]

9 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

It was not a what if, it was a genuine question, and one I know the answer too. We win our next two games, you will not be calling for him to be sacked. I get last night was a low point or a tipping point for you. I get you have loosely backed him in recent weeks.

However, we win the next two, you will not be calling for him to be gone again. 

This is what we are right now. Inconsistent, game by game with a young set of players. We all want this to change, and it needs to change. It won’t change in the short term due to a change of manager. The same issues will still exist. 

Fair enough - it would be silly to call for him to go after winning a game, but I don't see us beating a good Everton side away from home next. As much as anything, I am drawing a line in the sand. There is no point keeping on shouting "Poch Out", but I truly believe he is done as a manager here. If we win against Everton and and Sheffield United, my mind will not change on that.

Inconsistent is one thing - worst record in PL history is another. I ask the same question to you about Potter, would you still have him here after 22 games? Because the reality is, results matter. The plans need to change, this is way beyond Poch, but there is a bare minimum of results and performances, even over 15 games. Last night was beyond the pail but it was also in context of 14 other games where we have rarely been good/great, at best promising and sometimes abysmal. And it was in the context of 14 other games where we have simply failed to get results, even against the likes of Arsenal where we played half decent.

I don't think our form is inconsistent - it's just plain bad. We weren't great against Brighton, we were dreadful against Newcastle, good against City and Arsenal, bad vs. Brentford, mixed at best against Spurs. Not to mention our terrible start to the season, where we supposedly played well but got dreadful results against struggling sides. For Chelsea's standards - that's not good at all.

 

[Thiago97]

8 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

The obvious retort to that is that last season the managers took a 74 point team to 44 points. Potter's average implies 48 points for the whole season.
Poch's average also implies 48 points for the season with a team that last year had 44.
Poch is actually improving the team over last season.  And he is improving it a lot compared to the last 11 games where the average was 0.37 a game.

The damage had already been done before Poch arrived. The damage meant that only Poch would come.
You are trying to shoot the horse after it has bolted.

Our next 6 are certainly winnable and are a much better test of whether we are a 44 point team again or a 54 point team than playing at OT ever was.

No.  We are remarkably consistent.  Amazingly consistent.
And the overnight change happened.  As predicted by many and @xceleryx in particular.  It won't suddenly reverse.
But I agree the name of the manager won't make much difference.

I have seen others make this consistent argument. I don’t agree though. A team that plays very well and scores 4 past city , follows that up with the displays at Newcastle and Utd, whilst beating a decent Brighton team in between. Personally , I consider that inconsistent and unpredictable. 

[Max Fowler]

10 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

The obvious retort to that is that last season the managers took a 74 point team to 44 points. Potter's average implies 48 points for the whole season.
Poch's average also implies 48 points for the season with a team that last year had 44.
Poch is actually improving the team over last season.  And he is improving it a lot compared to the last 11 games where the average was 0.37 a game.

Our next 6 are certainly winnable and are a much better test of whether we are a 44 point team again or a 54 point team than playing at OT ever was.

I mean that's silly maths, Poch is better than Lampard's interim period - great. But he is exactly as bad as Potter in terms of points per game, with a squad which has had additional investment and is arguably in much less flux than the one Potter inherited, albeit with serious issues in itself.

Funny about the next six games - people were saying we only turn up against good teams so will be interesting to see how we survive now in Low Block City once we start travelling there again.

[Thiago97]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Fair enough - it would be silly to call for him to go after winning a game, but I don't see us beating a good Everton side away from home next. As much as anything, I am drawing a line in the sand. There is no point keeping on shouting "Poch Out", but I truly believe he is done as a manager here. If we win against Everton and and Sheffield United, my mind will not change on that.

Inconsistent is one thing - worst record in PL history is another. I ask the same question to you about Potter, would you still have him here after 22 games? Because the reality is, results matter. The plans need to change, this is way beyond Poch, but there is a bare minimum of results and performances, even over 15 games. Last night was beyond the pail but it was also in context of 14 other games where we have rarely been good/great, at best promising and sometimes abysmal. And it was in the context of 14 other games where we have simply failed to get results, even against the likes of Arsenal where we played half decent.

I don't think our form is inconsistent - it's just plain bad. We weren't great against Brighton, we were dreadful against Newcastle, good against City and Arsenal, bad vs. Brentford, mixed at best against Spurs. Not to mention our terrible start to the season, where we supposedly played well but got dreadful results against struggling sides. For Chelsea's standards - that's not good at all.

 

I’m not interested in any discussion involving Potter. I don’t see any relevance in it. The performances under Poch are chalk and cheese, if people cannot see that, then I suggest they give up wasting their time watching football. 
The results may have some similarity, but it’s a different set of players with different motivations and objectives. I see no value at all in making any comparison between these two situations. 

[Max Fowler]

4 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I’m not interested in any discussion involving Potter. I don’t see any relevance in it. The performances under Poch are chalk and cheese, if people cannot see that, then I suggest they give up wasting their time watching football. 
The results may have some similarity, but it’s a different set of players with different motivations and objectives. I see no value at all in making any comparison between these two situations. 

We have got better under Poch (only a bit better I would add), but nearly every other top side have improved more. Aston Villa, Spurs and Liverpool have undoubtedly improved way more than we have. Arsenal have started less well statistically but have bolstered their squad better than we have. Same is true of Man United and Newcastle.

In short, we may be better under Poch than Potter but it's all relative. If we improve by 5% and there are at least three sides above us improving by 25%, we've not really improved - we've gone backwards.

Add to that City who were so far ahead of us in the first place, improving by 5% just isn't enough to close the gap for decades - in a bad season so far for them, where you would bank on them to improve again soon.

"Chalk and cheese" is ridiculous though - we are a bit better, nothing more nothing less.

[Dwmh]

4 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I have seen others make this consistent argument. I don’t agree though. A team that plays very well and scores 4 past city , follows that up with the displays at Newcastle and Utd, whilst beating a decent Brighton team in between. Personally , I consider that inconsistent and unpredictable. 

Inconsistent and unpredictable would have been getting a win against Arsenal, Liverpool or City.
In fact we have 9 points against the 10 teams that are above or equal with us.
3 came against  a 9 man team.  3 came against a team with 4 teenagers where we got a Pen and 2 goals from corners.
I'm still waiting to see the good to go with the bad.

Part of being a good team is getting 3 points occasionally.  Grabbing 1 now and again means nothing.  Over 80% of points won in the Prem come from Wins.  2 seasons ago all 3 draws would have been disappointments.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I mean that's silly maths, Poch is better than Lampard's interim period - great. But he is exactly as bad as Potter in terms of points per game, with a squad which has had additional investment and is arguably in much less flux than the one Potter inherited, albeit with serious issues in itself.

Sorry, are you seriously suggesting that Poch has a better team in a better shape to do well than Potter had a year ago?
Let alone one with the resilience and maturity to overcome a run of bad form.

Seriously?  I think you need to re-read before you click submit.

[Max Fowler]

3 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Sorry, are you seriously suggesting that Poch has a better team in a better shape to do well than Potter had a year ago?
Let alone one with the resilience and maturity to overcome a run of bad form.

Seriously?  I think you need to re-read before you click submit.

Yes. We had about 40 players last season, 15+ of them knew they were leaving. Mudryk had to sit outside of the dressing room in the corridor, because there was no seats available - that is not a conducive environment for anyone succeeding. We may have had a few better players on paper but in reality this is a much more settled squad with added quality we didn't have before (Palmer, Caicedo, Disasi, Gusto, etc.)

Edited December 7, 2023 by Max Fowler

[boratsbrother]

52 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

 

Do you believe then - 22 was too few for Potter? Do you believe Potter should still be here?

Excuse me for butting in, but I would have kept Potter for pretty much the same reasons why I'd have given Frank more time. Every time this club hits a bad period the reaction is the same..sack the manager. Never give them a proper amount of time to work through problems (at least a couple of full seasons)  just sack them and bring in the next lamb to the slaughter. 

It worked at onetime but that was a time when we still had a financial advantage over most clubs and still had the choice of some world class managers to choose from. However, it's been as clear as day that way of doing things has been orking less and less successfully in the league over the last ten years. With the exception of Pep and Klopp,  we've gone though all the top managers, other clubs have caught up and overtaken us financially but we still act like we're just a change of manager away from getting back to the top again. Just when will it sink in that what we're doing isn't working and won't work and start giving managers serious time to sort out this mess and start building something. 

[Max Fowler]

2 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Excuse me for butting in, but I would have kept Potter for pretty much the same reasons why I'd have given Frank more time. Every time this club hits a bad period the reaction is the same..sack the manager. Never give them a proper amount of time to work through problems (at least a couple of full seasons)  just sack them and bring in the next lamb to the slaughter. 

It worked at onetime but that was a time when we still had a financial advantage over most clubs and still had the choice of some world class managers to choose from. However, it's been as clear as day that way of doing things has been orking less and less successfully in the league over the last ten years. With the exception of Pep and Klopp,  we've gone though all the top managers, other clubs have caught up and overtaken us financially but we still act like we're just a change of manager away from getting back to the top again. Just when will it sink in that what we're doing isn't working and won't work and start giving managers serious time to sort out this mess and start building something. 

Thank you for this honest reply.

Football in general is so results-driven and are fans in particular are so expectant that results like these are just not tenable. These owners promised to be something different but are subject to the same pressures as anyone else. I admire the argument that we should not have sacked Potter and we should not sack Poch for the same reason. I don't agree with the logic but at least it's honest. 

And at least it allows for the acknowledgement of the fact that our results are now just as bad under Poch as they were under Potter. If you don't think that was a sackable offence for either, at least you are being consistent.

[thevelourfog]

I have no faith things get any better under Pochettino but I genuinely can't fathom what anyone who actively wants him gone thinks that is going to achieve. We are not a club with the clout to simply identify and appoint a top coach any more.

[chrisb]

We are not the same club as we were 10 years ago,  we’re not even the same club as we were 2 years ago. There are a multitude of reasons for our decline, new owners (who are as yet to prove they know what they’re doing), other clubs outmuscling us financially, HM Gov almost killing us and the fact that no club stays on top forever. This is not the Scottish Prem.

It needs to sink in that we’re not challenging for the league or even top 4 for the foreseeable future, we’re back to where we were in the early 90’s where we’ll have the odd cup run and be happy with avoiding relegation.

Should we be happy with this? Well no obviously, but we are where we are and we can’t turn back the clock. Performances like last night and Newcastle were shocking but not wholly unexpected given our squad and the turmoil the club’s been through in the last couple of years. People can beat us with the “spent a billion pounds to be mid-table” but that doesn’t tell the whole story, not even close. We’ve basically been stripped down and completely rebuilt. Every one has their own opinion on the rights and wrongs of this method.
 

Supporting Chelsea has always been a roller coaster of a ride with massive highs and seriously bad lows, that’s how it is and probably how it will always be. I for one kind of enjoy it in a strange perverse way! I’m sure we’ll get better if we give the manager and the squad time, I’m not for a minute suggesting we’ll be anywhere near challenging for the title though.

For those born in the 90’s these last couple of seasons must have come as quite a shock and probably  harder to accept than it is for us “older” fans who’ve seen it all before and have years of experience at watching crap performances week in week out!

 I‘m hanging my hat on keeping Poch and giving him the time to turn this squad  into a decent foundation to build on in the future. Not saying I’m right or that those who want him out are wrong, it’s just my opinion.

40 points is a must though!

[Max Fowler]

 

 

[Max Fowler]

It's worth pointing out that at every managerial cycle you have some fans and many journalists saying exactly the same thing. "It's ridiculous to think about sacking him this early", "he needs to be given more time", "we can't keep sacking managers" etc. The process is almost a parody of itself at this point, until the inevitable happens. I get people saying we need to be realistic given how our stature has fallen, but I genuinely think the reality of the situation is as follows: no Chelsea manager can sustain these results for much longer and the owners have proven to be little different from Roman in that regard. Rightly or wrongly, the inevitable will come around the corner pretty sharpish unless results improve. As Tuchel indicates, maybe the players are already losing faith with Poch.

And while I fully appreciate your wisened perspective @chrisb, I genuinely think the owners and investors think of us still as a top four side ready to challenge for the title in the next few seasons. I don't think we need to adjust our expectations because that's what the owners believe and they have the finances to back it up. I just think the plan has failed badly.
 

10 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

 

 

 

[McCreadie]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Find me the last time I said I was not behind Poch. 2 months ago at the very least.

 

Well it's here, literally less than an hour before your reply

 

3 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Here is the reality now.

Potter had our joint worst points per game of any manager in the Premier League era, with 1.27.

Now add Poch to that list - 1.27 PPM. Fail to win at Everton and he will be alone as our worst Premier League Manager based on points per match.

Potter lasted 22 Premier League games, Poch is on 15 now.

The likes of @Thiago97 say it is ridiculous to call for his head after 15 but the stats speak for themselves.

He would already be gone twice under Roman. We are heading into or beyond Graham Potter territory.
 

 

And then its here, an hour AFTER your reply

 

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

There is no point keeping on shouting "Poch Out", but I truly believe he is done as a manager here. If we win against Everton and and Sheffield United, my mind will not change on that.

 

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Unlike you who literally gives nothing but a one-sided, two sentence answer to any problem.

 

I do my best not to confuse the hard of thinking 🙂

 

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Do you believe then - 22 was too few for Potter? Do you believe Potter should still be here?

I didn't want Potter to begin with, but once he got here, I got behind him and thought he should have a whole season and probably a bit more, up to Xmas 2023, to have the opportunity to make it work, pretty much regardless of results. I think exactly the same about Poch. I will probably think the same about the next guy (unless it is Roberto Martinez). If Potter had stayed until the end of last season, my opinion is that we would have ended with more points than we did.