Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Max Fowler]

This is the only time I agree with Droy that Fabrizio doesn't have a clue what conversations are behind the scenes.

 

 

[exiledblue]

I didnt see the poll but agree with the result. 

Poch (any manager) would struggle with Todds fantasy league approach to buying. The managers situation is also not helped by the number of injuries. Perhaps investment is needed in the medical department. 

James, Chilwell, Fofana, Lavia, Nkunku, Gusto, Madueke, Ugochukwu etc are a lot to miss

However he hasnt helped himself with decisions like not including Chalobah.

 

[Bison]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

This is the only time I agree with Droy that Fabrizio doesn't have a clue what conversations are behind the scenes.

It seems obvious there are people leaking information about transfers and maybe other news to people like Fabrizo.

In this instance however, I am assuming because nobody has received any recent information from the club about Poch they feel safe reporting he won't be sacked.

[Max Fowler]

2 minutes ago, Bison said:

It seems obvious there are people leaking information about transfers and maybe other news to people like Fabrizo.

In this instance however, I am assuming because nobody has received any recent information from the club about Poch they feel safe reporting he won't be sacked.

I feel the opposite.

They are actively briefing that Poch’s job is absolutely safe in order to control the narrative. Did the same with Potter.

[Thiago97]

7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I feel the opposite.

They are actively briefing that Poch’s job is absolutely safe in order to control the narrative. Did the same with Potter.

Still no alternatives being offered up by the Poch out brigade though. I replied to @xceleryx when he asked the question and I said you won't get any sensible responses and he didn't. All that was offered up was this route one notion of De Zerbi.

If it seems so obvious to some that a change of manager will have a positive. Well, not too many names being offered up.

Which leads me to think that deep down, many know that Poch is working with the questionable hand he has been dealt, whilst knowing the players are the ones who are proving to be just as much of a disappointment.

[thevelourfog]

Just how shit Pochettino has been has made me revisit and question lots of what I previously felt confident about on Potter. That he essentially couldn't coach our players, that training sessions were more about morale and team building than drills, that he had the player's hierarchy of needs upside down (confidence and self-belief comes first from competence with the basics, not the over way around). Because the outward product of training is almost exactly the same now as it was under him. How likely is it that we'd have two coaches with the exact same problems and limitations, and who very few football fans would have drawn very close comparisons between a year or two ago, manifesting in the exact same way again?

And I wondered about my initial thoughts on Pochettino. That what he is clearly good at is building up young players, drilling them to within an inch of their lives while maintaining morale. Was I wrong about that? I honestly don't think so, what we could see of his time at Southampton, Tottenham and (in a different way) PSG still does indicate that. So why is it going so wrong?

I can't shake the idea that Pochettino remains the right appointment to have made, and that fills me with no confidence now. The exact opposite. I don't think us bog standard fans have to be able to present a thoroughly considered alternative when saying we want a coach gone, but I do think there is little evidence to indicate Pochettino is "the problem". Maybe "a problem", but one dwarves by what else is going on at this car crash.

[Mark Kelly]

1 minute ago, Thiago97 said:

Still no alternatives being offered up by the Poch out brigade though. I replied to @xceleryx when he asked the question and I said you won't get any sensible responses and he didn't. All that was offered up was this route one notion of De Zerbi.

If it seems so obvious to some that a change of manager will have a positive. Well, not too many names being offered up.

Which leads me to think that deep down, many know that Poch is working with the questionable hand he has been dealt, whilst knowing the players are the ones who are proving to be just as much of a disappointment.

The problem is there aren't any stand out candidates , I mooted Marco Silva of Fulham as he has a past record of improving teams so they are better than the sum of their parts  but he also has some horrendous skeletons in the closet like Everton and Watford where he was atrocious ( mind you ...Everton and Watford have both been basket cases before , during and since his tenure ) it's a difficult decision .

I don't think the players are quite as bad as Pochettino's lack of coaching would lead you to believe , I saw a post from a PSG supporter who didn't have much good to say about him saying that the club got steadily worse under his stewardship and he relied very much on Mbappe's pace to win him games on the counter . 

He was very much made to look a better coach by "unearthing" Harry Kane who carried him to a coaching reputation despite Poch originally leaving him in the Spurs reserves until the player he'd identified to lead the line , not only failed abysmally but injured himself in the process of stinking out the division,  leaving Kane to take his chance. 

Sadly , I think the "good with younger players" line is due entirely to Kane coming good despite Pochettino .

I don't think we'll sack him and I don't believer we will improve under him and I don't think there are the players out there that will want to come and that could improve the side to the degree it needs. 

The boards drive for the future hasn't helped either but the alarm bells started ringing for me when Enzo opined he wanted to be an attacking number 8 and not the piss poor holding player Pochettino wants him to be .

Poch should have made Silva Captain , he should have told Colwill to earn his place , he should have played Chilwell as a LWB and he should have given some help from defence to our wingers who are expected to do everything without any support at all, it's no wonder they generally look inept . 

And he should have made the players think he believes in their abilities instead of being scared whoever we face , it's no coincidence that the only times we've looked a decent side is when he's let them off the shackles against better sides as there was nothing of his reputation to lose when we're almost expected to lose against the likes of City and Liverpool. 

I don't think Villa have better players than Chelsea , I don't think Newcastle have better players than Chelsea , what they have is a better coach with the first idea what they are about , under Pochettino we have no identity . 

[exiledblue]

24 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

under Pochettino we have no identity . 

As we didnt with anyone else since TT. Poch is not the problem probably as was not Potter or Lamps,

Too many disjointed buys. We needed a striker but the Fantasy league owner seemed to have run out of money by then.

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Bison said:

It seems obvious there are people leaking information about transfers and maybe other news to people like Fabrizo.

In this instance however, I am assuming because nobody has received any recent information from the club about Poch they feel safe reporting he won't be sacked.

Really?  What do votes of confidence usually imply?

I'm thinking Mrs Poch and children are going to be seeing a lot more of Mr Poch soon.
Not that it will help much.
(similarly what does it mean when a manager says the board need to buy new players....)

36 minutes ago, exiledblue said:

As we didnt with anyone else since TT. Poch is not the problem probably as was not Potter or Lamps,

Agreed.  What we really need is a coaching team in place long enough to identify who (if any) are strong characters, and make sure that they stay at any cost while we ship out any that (at their current age) need to be in a solid team in order to play well.
I don't think moneyball is good at understanding how it all goes wrong when it does go wrong.  Likewise Baseball is much more of a team = sum of the players game than Football where chemistry is more important.

(not criticising Moneyball, just highlighting the limitations)

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

Still no alternatives being offered up by the Poch out brigade though. I replied to @xceleryx when he asked the question and I said you won't get any sensible responses and he didn't. All that was offered up was this route one notion of De Zerbi.

If it seems so obvious to some that a change of manager will have a positive. Well, not too many names being offered up.

Which leads me to think that deep down, many know that Poch is working with the questionable hand he has been dealt, whilst knowing the players are the ones who are proving to be just as much of a disappointment.

Your framing of "us" as the "Poch out brigade" is unfair. Fans are aware Poch has been dealt a bad hand but more are coming round to the idea that he just is unable to get a tune out of this squad. Whether or not he has a squad to challenge for European football is a moot point - if he loses the next 10 games on the bounce, he will be gone whatever excuses are made.

Many feel he will be gone sooner than that and if results continue for not very much longer he will have to go. The performance at Man United in particular was so unacceptable for me that it revealed something was fundamentally broken, as we have seen under many managers before. Our results and position in the table is completely untenable. I believe he has lost the confidence of the dressing room even if there haven't been major fallings out. They have simply stopped believing they can win under Poch.

It's also unfair to say no "sensible alternatives" have been put forward. Ultimately it's not our job to choose Poch's successor - it's the board's. You don't like the names that we put forward but the owners will have to decide who is the best fit for them and we have a limited window into how things are functioning behind the scenes. Nonetheless - here is a list for you:

• Antonio Conte
• Jose Mourinho
• Max Allegri
• Roberto De Zerbi
• Thomas Frank
• Marco Silva
• Arne Slot
• Carlo Ancelotti
• Xabi Alonso
• Hansi Flick
• Imanol Alguacil
• Abel Ferreira
• Ruben Amorim
• Michel
• Marco Rose
• Zinedine Zidane
• Unai Emery
• Edin Terzić
• Peter Bosz
• Julen Lopetegui
• Sergio Conceição

There's 21 managers we could look at. Some you will say are past it, some you will say are not gettable. Some are too inexperienced, some are not the right fit. No doubt you think many don't compare well to Poch in terms of their CV. The point is - at some point we have to make a change, for the same reason we had to make a change with many of past managers, because as football reality dictates, when you fail to win enough games you just have to go.

We will see what happens. You will say Poch can turn things around but many of "us" feel the wheels have already come off, there is no salvaging this project and we need to make a change sooner rather than later. 

And finally, many of us feel there isn't any great loss getting rid of Poch. As I have argued all along, this is the most overrated manager of the last decade. A media daring for achieving very little of note in his career. I really came to think he was good for this transition but he has completely failed. We will not be losing another elite manager.

We can line up one of the above for the summer if needed but we may still need to get an interim. Buying players for Poch in January seems to make little sense if we falter in the next five games before the transfer window opens.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Bigpokey24]

6 hours ago, xceleryx said:

It's only an epic fail depending on what unfolds in the future with these guys.

Call it a fault of ownership and a lack of clarity, but for arguments sake there is the possibility of there being multiples phases here with what we're doing. The first was to obviously shed a lot of inflated wages, under performers, and players possibly past their best. The second was to then invested heavily into young talent with lower immediate levels in exchange for the prospect of higher future rewards, this has allowed us to rebuild a full first team just about while keeping wages cost controlled. 

If the third phase was to then use the next summer window (or maybe even this January if options present), to then sign higher established quality that would immediate raise the floor level and fill in key areas of need, then a bit more understanding can be had. It would've been harder, if not near impossible, to just rebuild through proven established options alone initially - not to mention far more expensive with less wiggle room if signings don't pan out. 

This team is buildable though, that needs to be kept in mind. It's not as if we're a Man Utd for example and have spent millions on established options for high fees and wages, then still look a mile off. They're going to have a real hard time shedding certain players, as they've kinda had over the last season or two prior, purely because of what they earn. Even Arsenal when Arteta signed ended up just releasing a bunch of high earners to clear their wage bill for their rebuilding process. 

A project has certainly been sold to players upon them joining, it would be nice to know a bit more as to what that project actually is and the timeframe we're looking at. Knowing this would've likely meant a bit more leeway at times. This is something ownership need to fix and be more transparent about.

 

 

Those aren't his players. Board purchases etc. He needs to buy his own set of players. Enzo is a very poor signing. Let the managers take control of transfers.  Enzo is on a 10 year contract. He is lazy , he isn't good enough for Chelsea.  We lose more with him in the squad. He has been here for almost a year, and we are still waiting and hoping for the future. We can claim and hope for the future while our rivals pass us by 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Bigpokey24

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Bigpokey24 said:

 

 

Those aren't his players. Board purchases etc. He needs to buy his own set of players. Enzo is a very poor signing. Let the managers take control of transfers.  

The manager who spent all the Gareth Bale money on rubbish and kept Harry Kane in the reserves , I wouldn't trust him on the sandwich run at work let alone deciding who's a good player . 

[Bison]

 

[Dwmh]

23 minutes ago, Bigpokey24 said:

Those aren't his players. Board purchases etc. He needs to buy his own set of players. Enzo is a very poor signing. Let the managers take control of transfers.  Enzo is on a 10 year contract. He is lazy , he isn't good enough for Chelsea.  We lose more with him in the squad. He has been here for almost a year, and we are still waiting and hoping for the future. We can claim and hope for the future while our rivals pass us by 

Enzo is a brilliant player as anyone who watched him with Chelsea would have seen last season.  Well worth say the money Arsenal paid for Rice,  Observers would also have noted that he was bound to tire of carrying the side sooner or later.  It seems to have happened already.
I really can't blame Enzo for this.  It is the half hearted buying for a period after the team has collapsed policy that is driving this.

 

24 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The manager who spent all the Gareth Bale money on rubbish and kept Harry Kane in the reserves , I wouldn't trust him on the sandwich run at work let alone deciding who's a good player . 

Confidence votes and blame the directors.....

[Bison]

34 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Really?  What do votes of confidence usually imply?

I'm thinking Mrs Poch and children are going to be seeing a lot more of Mr Poch soon.
Not that it will help much.
(similarly what does it mean when a manager says the board need to buy new players....)

Agreed.  What we really need is a coaching team in place long enough to identify who (if any) are strong characters, and make sure that they stay at any cost while we ship out any that (at their current age) need to be in a solid team in order to play well.
I don't think moneyball is good at understanding how it all goes wrong when it does go wrong.  Likewise Baseball is much more of a team = sum of the players game than Football where chemistry is more important.

(not criticising Moneyball, just highlighting the limitations)

I don't think there's been a vote of confidence unless I've missed something?

[Dwmh]

3 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

This is the only time I agree with Droy that Fabrizio doesn't have a clue what conversations are behind the scenes.

 

 

We disagree (again).  Fabrizio has clearly been talking directly to Chelsea reps here.  He is probably being lied to, but it seems very likely he is reporting genuine conversations here.
 

4 minutes ago, Bison said:

I don't think there's been a vote of confidence unless I've missed something?

I'd call the above a vote of confidence, from the PR team at least.

6 minutes ago, Bison said:

 

I'm not disagreeing but there is a real problem with getting rid of the scouting/player evaluation team.
They use a methodology that rates Chelsea players (and ex-Brighton Chelsea players in particular) very highly.
Replace them, and a new team replaces them with a new valuation method.  Eg Keepers that are good with their feet are better than 6'4" stoppers who can't pass.
From a management pov the value of the squad collapses overnight.
I appreciate that does not translate into the accounting numbers which is based on formal accounting rules with little or no management assessment (except perhaps for crocked players).  But it will enter board talk between Boehly and Clearlake.

Plus of course it is much much deeper than the wrong players or the wrong scouts.
Step 1 - ask why every one has left except 2 perma crocked FBs and the 39 yo.  And left for better teams mostly.

(Step 2 - were we really carried by Kante up till last season?? - who else has he played for in the Prem, how did they do?)

[Thiago97]

2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

The problem is there aren't any stand out candidates , I mooted Marco Silva of Fulham as he has a past record of improving teams so they are better than the sum of their parts  but he also has some horrendous skeletons in the closet like Everton and Watford where he was atrocious ( mind you ...Everton and Watford have both been basket cases before , during and since his tenure ) it's a difficult decision .

I don't think the players are quite as bad as Pochettino's lack of coaching would lead you to believe , I saw a post from a PSG supporter who didn't have much good to say about him saying that the club got steadily worse under his stewardship and he relied very much on Mbappe's pace to win him games on the counter . 

He was very much made to look a better coach by "unearthing" Harry Kane who carried him to a coaching reputation despite Poch originally leaving him in the Spurs reserves until the player he'd identified to lead the line , not only failed abysmally but injured himself in the process of stinking out the division,  leaving Kane to take his chance. 

Sadly , I think the "good with younger players" line is due entirely to Kane coming good despite Pochettino .

I don't think we'll sack him and I don't believer we will improve under him and I don't think there are the players out there that will want to come and that could improve the side to the degree it needs. 

The boards drive for the future hasn't helped either but the alarm bells started ringing for me when Enzo opined he wanted to be an attacking number 8 and not the piss poor holding player Pochettino wants him to be .

Poch should have made Silva Captain , he should have told Colwill to earn his place , he should have played Chilwell as a LWB and he should have given some help from defence to our wingers who are expected to do everything without any support at all, it's no wonder they generally look inept . 

And he should have made the players think he believes in their abilities instead of being scared whoever we face , it's no coincidence that the only times we've looked a decent side is when he's let them off the shackles against better sides as there was nothing of his reputation to lose when we're almost expected to lose against the likes of City and Liverpool. 

I don't think Villa have better players than Chelsea , I don't think Newcastle have better players than Chelsea , what they have is a better coach with the first idea what they are about , under Pochettino we have no identity . 

Yeah I can see the Silva credentials. It's not a bad shout. As with many managers though, his biggest job in football to date did ultimately end in the sack after not very long. Maybe Everton pulled the trigger too early there.

The bits I have bolded I don't neccesarily agree with. At the same time, I find them pretty irrelevant to where we are right now. What I mean by that is, in the detail of where we are right now, these are minor issues that would not have made any difference. The Chilwell example is a small sample of games as he is injured anyway. Do I think we would have more points and look more progressive if Chilwell started the first 6 games at LB and Silva was captain ? I'm sorry but it is so negligible, I find it odd that you would keep repeating it.

As for the Villa/Newcastle player in comparison. I think talent wise they are quite even with Chelsea, game know how and experience , they are streets ahead. All of these players would make our first team (just off top of my head, many others like Konsa, Botman , MGinn would be right up there too), in fact we have actually been linked with many of them over the last few years.

Martinez, Pope, Trippier(RB or LB), Luiz, Tielemens, Watkins, Diaby, Guimares, Joelinton, Isak, Gordon, Wilson

Isak/Gordon/Diaby aside. The common thing they all have in common is they are experienced in the league, they have are seasoned professional players ranging from mid 20s to early 30s

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

The manager who spent all the Gareth Bale money on rubbish and kept Harry Kane in the reserves , I wouldn't trust him on the sandwich run at work let alone deciding who's a good player . 

Mark - You cannot keep posting incorrect information cos it suits your narrative. I have indirectly flagged this already and maybe you didnt see it, or chose to ignore it. It was AVB who spent the millions in the months either side of the Bale transfer, including Soldado.

Bale joined Madrid Sept 2013

Pochettino joined Spurs the summer of 2014.

 

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

Your framing of "us" as the "Poch out brigade" is unfair. Fans are aware Poch has been dealt a bad hand but more are coming round to the idea that he just is unable to get a tune out of this squad. Whether or not he has a squad to challenge for European football is a moot point - if he loses the next 10 games on the bounce, he will be gone whatever excuses are made.

Many feel he will be gone sooner than that and if results continue for not very much longer he will have to go. The performance at Man United in particular was so unacceptable for me that it revealed something was fundamentally broken, as we have seen under many managers before. Our results and position in the table is completely untenable. I believe he has lost the confidence of the dressing room even if there haven't been major fallings out. They have simply stopped believing they can win under Poch.

It's also unfair to say no "sensible alternatives" have been put forward. Ultimately it's not our job to choose Poch's successor - it's the board's. You don't like the names that we put forward but the owners will have to decide who is the best fit for them and we have a limited window into how things are functioning behind the scenes. Nonetheless - here is a list for you:

• Antonio Conte
• Jose Mourinho
• Max Allegri
• Roberto De Zerbi
• Thomas Frank
• Marco Silva
• Arne Slot
• Carlo Ancelotti
• Xabi Alonso
• Hansi Flick
• Imanol Alguacil
• Abel Ferreira
• Ruben Amorim
• Michel
• Marco Rose
• Zinedine Zidane
• Unai Emery
• Edin Terzić
• Peter Bosz
• Julen Lopetegui
• Sergio Conceição

There's 21 managers we could look at. Some you will say are past it, some you will say are not gettable. Some are too inexperienced, some are not the right fit. No doubt you think many don't compare well to Poch in terms of their CV. The point is - at some point we have to make a change, for the same reason we had to make a change with many of past managers, because as football reality dictates, when you fail to win enough games you just have to go.

We will see what happens. You will say Poch can turn things around but many of "us" feel the wheels have already come off, there is no salvaging this project and we need to make a change sooner rather than later. 

And finally, many of us feel there isn't any great loss getting rid of Poch. As I have argued all along, this is the most overrated manager of the last decade. A media daring for achieving very little of note in his career. I really came to think he was good for this transition but he has completely failed. We will not be losing another elite manager.

We can line up one of the above for the summer if needed but we may still need to get an interim. Buying players for Poch in January seems to make little sense if we falter in the next five games before the transfer window opens.

It was more aimed at who do you want? Who  do you see as a manager who will change the situation? The one man you have offered up previously before is De Zerbi. Is he really that different to what we already have though ? I would say no he isn't. They are just as up and down as we are this season, playing a relative similar style of football, and not finding it easy to keep clean sheets and win games on a regular basis. Plus we have beaten them twice.

[Mark Kelly]

8 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Mark - You cannot keep posting incorrect information cos it suits your narrative. I have indirectly flagged this already and maybe you didnt see it, or chose to ignore it. It was AVB who spent the millions in the months either side of the Bale transfer, including Soldado.

Bale joined Madrid Sept 2013

Pochettino joined Spurs the summer of 2014.

 

Sorry about that , I didn't see that . 

He did iirc keep Kane in the reserves for ages though I believe . 

Maybe not you have me doubting myself now!

[jasonb]

The problem just might be having the right players for the style of football.

If we  are going to be a high pressing side not sure if Palmer or Enzo work.

If we want to be a mixed combative style then Enzo does not seem to want to anchor the midfield.

With three at the back we are relying on the WBs being fit and often they are not. 

We probably need a footballer to anchor the midfield and a better striker option. 

 

 

[Thiago97]

2 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Sorry about that , I didn't see that . 

He did iirc keep Kane in the reserves for ages though I believe . 

Maybe not you have me doubting myself now!

He was rotating Soldado and Kane between the league and Europa league. Soldado was starting the league games and Kane in the Europa league. Then Soldado got injured and Kane stepped in around October/November.

He was not keeping Kane in the reserves, he was slowly integrating him into the first team, as many managers would for a young and unproven striker at the time.

Poch first summer he spent something like £40m on 5-6 players. AVB the summer before he spent about £150m with the Bale cash.

[Bigpokey24]

5 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

This is the only time I agree with Droy that Fabrizio doesn't have a clue what conversations are behind the scenes.

 

 

 

 

I think POCH needs to fix this or very soon the fans will turn on him. I still think we should see how the fixtures go during the festive period

[Bigpokey24]

15 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Sorry about that , I didn't see that . 

He did iirc keep Kane in the reserves for ages though I believe . 

Maybe not you have me doubting myself now!

Poch went two seasons without any transfers at SPurs, but he had Kane.. who do we have Nicholas Jackson

[Max Fowler]

24 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

It was more aimed at who do you want? Who  do you see as a manager who will change the situation? The one man you have offered up previously before is De Zerbi. Is he really that different to what we already have though ? I would say no he isn't. They are just as up and down as we are this season, playing a relative similar style of football, and not finding it easy to keep clean sheets and win games on a regular basis. Plus we have beaten them twice.

Well now I have offered 21 potential replacements for Poch - do you want me to name them all in order?

It's not about "is he that different" - it's about "is Poch working", as I keep having to repeat apparently.