Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Max Fowler]

43 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Who would you get in then? You’ve said De Zerbi, he has 1 Ukrainian Cup to his name, so that list is even worse than Poch.

De Zerbi just feels like the flavour of the month at the moment, but he’s never been tested under the kind of pressure he’d be under here and that’s not to say he won’t one day move on to the next level in managerial terms, but we just can’t be taking that kind of risk at the moment.

I’m not thrilled with Poch and I wouldn’t be upset if he went, but I really don’t see too many if any other options at the moment, that would want to come here.

If Poch goes, we need a very safe and experienced manager to come in to just try and settle the ship somewhat to allow us to actually begin to progress and build, IMO.

Don't agree with @east lower that De Zerbi is too emotional, otherwise I agree that Poch is a dead man walking. I accept that Poch has "more experience" on his CV but frankly it doesn't add up to much.

My point is that I feel some people are worried if we let Poch go that we would be losing an elite manager. We wouldn't. Poch is never elite, never has been, never will be. The question for me always was, would he work for this transition?

The big factor is - we know Poch hasn't worked. The data is in. (Do we know exactly why, if it was all his fault, or if anyone else would have done better? No! But we know Poch hasn't worked and 12th is so bad it's impossible someone couldn't do better).

De Zerbi is so highly rated that I think he's worth a shot. Potter wasn't nearly as highly rated as De Zerbi. It might not work but I think he'll end up at another massive club soon enough if we don't move fast. He carries risk but huge potential).

I'll do a top three based on personal preference, but the first two would require a change in strategy and manager profile that I simply don't think we'll undertake (but will give us identity back): Jose Mourinho, Antonio Conte, Roberto De Zerbi.

If you want a safe pair of hands, perhaps Hansi Flick, Julen Lopetegui or Arne Slot (unless Allegri or Ancelotti become available).

Otherwise, there are a number of more unknown, high potential options we could go for, but De Zerbi is the top of that list for me.

[Thiago97]

44 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Don't agree with @east lower that De Zerbi is too emotional, otherwise I agree that Poch is a dead man walking. I accept that Poch has "more experience" on his CV but frankly it doesn't add up to much.

My point is that I feel some people are worried if we let Poch go that we would be losing an elite manager. We wouldn't. Poch is never elite, never has been, never will be. The question for me always was, would he work for this transition?

The big factor is - we know Poch hasn't worked. The data is in. (Do we know exactly why, if it was all his fault, or if anyone else would have done better? No! But we know Poch hasn't worked and 12th is so bad it's impossible someone couldn't do better).

De Zerbi is so highly rated that I think he's worth a shot. Potter wasn't nearly as highly rated as De Zerbi. It might not work but I think he'll end up at another massive club soon enough if we don't move fast. He carries risk but huge potential).

I'll do a top three based on personal preference, but the first two would require a change in strategy and manager profile that I simply don't think we'll undertake (but will give us identity back): Jose Mourinho, Antonio Conte, Roberto De Zerbi.

If you want a safe pair of hands, perhaps Hansi Flick, Julen Lopetegui or Arne Slot (unless Allegri or Ancelotti become available).

Otherwise, there are a number of more unknown, high potential options we could go for, but De Zerbi is the top of that list for me.

Whilst you were a huge Tuchel backer. I seem to recall that Potter was top of your list to replace him, once the decision was made.

This is not me having a pop for what happened with Potter. It’s more me pointing out that these hipster managers ( actually hipster coaches is more accurate) can be accelerated into positions their CV does not support.

As I have said before , let’s see how De Zerbi counters teams working out how to play Brighton, because they are getting their head around it. If he can successfully counter that, then it’s a tick to add to his CV.  

 

[Max Fowler]

10 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Whilst you were a huge Tuchel backer. I seem to recall that Potter was top of your list to replace him, once the decision was made.

This is not me having a pop for what happened with Potter. It’s more me pointing out that these hipster managers ( actually hipster coaches is more accurate) can be accelerated into positions their CV does not support.

As I have said before , let’s see how De Zerbi counters teams working out how to play Brighton, because they are getting their head around it. If he can successfully counter that, then it’s a tick to add to his CV.  

I never backed hiring Potter I don't think mate, would admit it if I did. As I said, when we hired Potter it was kind of out of nowhere - he was obviously talented but no top club was particularly linked with him.

Supposedly Real Madrid have already contacted De Zerbi, so we might not have a chance anyway. 

As the big clubs are sniffing around him, I think we can steal a march and take a risk on him, not just for our own success but also to prevent him potentially blowing up elsewhere. Just listen to Pep:

 

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Thiago97]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

I never backed hiring Potter I don't think mate, would admit it if I did. As I said, when we hired Potter it was kind of out of nowhere - he was obviously talented but no top club was particularly linked with him.

Supposedly Real Madrid have already contacted De Zerbi, so we might not have a chance anyway. 

As the big clubs are sniffing around him, I think we can steal a march and take a risk on him, not just for our own success but also to prevent him potentially blowing up elsewhere. Just listen to what Pep had to say:

 

 

I’m not really interested in what Pep has to say.  I’m more interested in how De Zerbi counters opponents working his team out. If he achieves that , then it’s worth far more validation than any sound bite from Pep. 
 

[Max Fowler]

14 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I’m not really interested in what Pep has to say.  I’m more interested in how De Zerbi counters opponents working his team out. If he achieves that , then it’s worth far more validation than any sound bite from Pep. 
 

Here's one for you then. Brighton under De Zerbi - points per game 1.66. Chelsea under Poch - points per game 1.47. Brighton under Potter - points per game 1.28. There are levels to this game and you are stuck in the elevator crying out for a mechanic.

[Mark Kelly]

I'm no lover of Pochettino , I think he's scared of any team ranked below us in case we lose and make him look bad , but it's very difficult to drop players for bad attitude or playing like lemons if , as has constantly been the case , you have few options at your disposal. 

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

I'm no lover of Pochettino , I think he's scared of any team ranked below us in case we lose and make him look bad , but it's very difficult to drop players for bad attitude or playing like lemons if , as has constantly been the case , you have few options at your disposal. 

How much did Bully and Egg Bali pay for your account and where has the real Mark Kelly gone?!

[Ham]

19 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

How much did Bully and Egg Bali pay for your account and where has the real Mark Kelly gone?!

12 injuries. The point is valid. 

[thevelourfog]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Don't agree with @east lower ...

My point is that I feel some people are worried if we let Poch go that we would be losing an elite manager. We wouldn't. Poch is never elite, never has been, never will be. The question for me always was, would he work for this transition?

A) Who are these people? It sounds like am opinion made up to argue with, because the genuine ones are to difficult to argue with.

B) Precisely, because we cannot attract an elite manager. That is exactly why we don't have one here. The manager who seemed, for all his limitations, to have the specific skills for what we needed can't do it. That is cause for alarm well beyond the manager's continued presence here.

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

I'm no lover of Pochettino , I think he's scared of any team ranked below us in case we lose and make him look bad , but it's very difficult to drop players for bad attitude or playing like lemons if , as has constantly been the case , you have few options at your disposal. 

20 over 21s in the squad, 4 of those are keepers.  That is before injuries.
 

41 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

How much did Bully and Egg Bali pay for your account and where has the real Mark Kelly gone?!

He is precisely defending the manager and blaming the board for giving him a small squad.

15 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

B) Precisely, because we cannot attract an elite manager. That is exactly why we don't have one here. The manager who seemed, for all his limitations, to have the specific skills for what we needed can't do it. That is cause for alarm well beyond the manager's continued presence here.

Yes.  The crisis is the cause of us having an average manage like Pochettino, not the result.

[Ham]

3 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

 

He is precisely defending the manager and blaming the board for giving him a small squad.

 

I might be wrong but I don't think that's what he meant. 

[Max Fowler]

28 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

A) Who are these people? It sounds like am opinion made up to argue with, because the genuine ones are to difficult to argue with.

B) Precisely, because we cannot attract an elite manager. That is exactly why we don't have one here. The manager who seemed, for all his limitations, to have the specific skills for what we needed can't do it. That is cause for alarm well beyond the manager's continued presence here.

a) Well the argument being made by many on here is that we are not going to get a better qualified manager than Poch right now. De Zerbi etc. are more of a risk because they are more inexperienced. I can go through the quotes if needed but this seems a recurring argument. 

If others are arguing he needs more time or doesn't have the right tools, that's fair enough. I can't logically argue against giving any manager more time or more money because you can always do that, you can never run the counterfactual. We could have given Potter more time and money, AVB etc. I can never say that wouldn't have worked.

b) But that's the point, if you are hiring a manager with limitations who many doubt is an elite level coach, you can't be surprised when it goes wrong. And the risk of getting someone else in isn't that great - I don't find it that alarming because maybe Poch was never a good fit for this transition, was the wrong person at the wrong time, for whatever reason.

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

a) Well the argument being made by many on here is that we are not going to get a better qualified manager than Poch right now. De Zerbi etc. are more of a risk because they are more inexperienced. I can go through the quotes if needed but this seems a recurring argument. 

If others are arguing he needs more time or doesn't have the right tools, that's fair enough. I can't logically argue against giving any manager more time or more money because you can always do that, you can never run the counterfactual. We could have given Potter more time and money, AVB etc. I can never say that wouldn't have worked.

b) But that's the point, if you are hiring a manager with limitations who many doubt is an elite level coach, you can't be surprised when it goes wrong. And the risk of getting someone else in isn't that great - I don't find it that alarming because maybe Poch was never a good fit for this transition, was the wrong person at the wrong time, for whatever reason.

So in answer to a), no one made the argument you're arguing against. And for b), you have to work on the basis we deliberately didn't hire the best we can get. Fair enough, I do think these owners are morons so can have some sympathy with that. But when you think they're even worse than I think they are, you're very much on the fringes.

[xceleryx]

16 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Don't agree with @east lower that De Zerbi is too emotional, otherwise I agree that Poch is a dead man walking. I accept that Poch has "more experience" on his CV but frankly it doesn't add up to much.

My point is that I feel some people are worried if we let Poch go that we would be losing an elite manager. We wouldn't. Poch is never elite, never has been, never will be. The question for me always was, would he work for this transition?

The big factor is - we know Poch hasn't worked. The data is in. (Do we know exactly why, if it was all his fault, or if anyone else would have done better? No! But we know Poch hasn't worked and 12th is so bad it's impossible someone couldn't do better).

De Zerbi is so highly rated that I think he's worth a shot. Potter wasn't nearly as highly rated as De Zerbi. It might not work but I think he'll end up at another massive club soon enough if we don't move fast. He carries risk but huge potential).

I'll do a top three based on personal preference, but the first two would require a change in strategy and manager profile that I simply don't think we'll undertake (but will give us identity back): Jose Mourinho, Antonio Conte, Roberto De Zerbi.

If you want a safe pair of hands, perhaps Hansi Flick, Julen Lopetegui or Arne Slot (unless Allegri or Ancelotti become available).

Otherwise, there are a number of more unknown, high potential options we could go for, but De Zerbi is the top of that list for me.

No one ever claimed Poch is elite, much less fear losing him. What an utterly ridiculous statement to make. 

What we don't need right at this very moment is to be chopping and changing managers every 6-8 months because continued instability will only serve to unsettle things more. We're a young side, one that's also plagued by injuries to some fairly significant key players, and still has its general gaps and flaws that most teams possess. With all the whirlwind of change that's happened at the club over the last 18 months a period of stability, particularly on the playing side, is important to just settle things down. 

I don't think anyone, even those of us who were satisfied enough with Poch taking over initially, ever really felt or had the impression he was going to part the seas and be that man to lead us back to glory. You have to look at him as a building block, a guy who has had experience developing younger players and teams, but also with some experience handling slightly more developed sides. Whether he's won anything or not, is kinda irrelevant to the stage we're at right now. 

I like De Zerbi, have seen more of him than probably most on here, and would have been satisfied if he was hired, but there's this real allure that's been created around him since joining the Premier League that's near enough made him seem like the second coming of Pep and everything he's to touch will turn to gold. 

Turning back to a Mourinho or Conte has the real potential to end up extremely messy, and I say that as a big fan of both. Conte is volatile to say the least, and Mourinho has his disruptive flaws as well. 

Then if you look beyond those and the other names put forward;

• Hansi Flick has primarily been an assistant or managed in the lower leagues of Germany 20 years ago - outside of his short spell at Bayern and so-so efforts with Germany NT there's far too many question marks to be had.
• Lopetegui would be too hit and miss at this point, his only decent spell at a club was with Sevilla otherwise he's in and out of roles every 1-2 years.
• Arne Slot being considered safe hands is a stretch, he's had two real main jobs and hasn't managed outside of the Eredivisie. 
• Allegri would be an awful appointment. You want to complain about the football we play now, Allegriball will have you gouging your eyes out. He's also on a stupidly expensive contract, which is a big part in why he probably wasn't fired last season. 
• Ancelotti is the only real sensible one but he'll be 65 in June, so that may see him opt to move into NT management to wind things down. 

The one glaring option you missed IMO, and one that would rival De Zerbi, is Xavi Alonso. Big talk he'll possibly replace Carlo at Madrid, but I could also see him being earmarked to replace Klopp if he was to leave in the near future. What he's done with a young Leverkusen side since taking over has been ridiculous.

[chara]

OK..De Zerbi....analysed opinion,,,,,don;t want him,,don't like him think he's unproven in real long term,,,plus he looks like a ferret and that is enough for a seasoned OG like me.

[Max Fowler]

16 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

So in answer to a), no one made the argument you're arguing against. And for b), you have to work on the basis we deliberately didn't hire the best we can get. Fair enough, I do think these owners are morons so can have some sympathy with that. But when you think they're even worse than I think they are, you're very much on the fringes.

Well certainly the media perception of Poch is that he's an absolutely top level manager. You hear it from all quarters. So I feel his being overrated is influencing perception and contributing to more patience than he would otherwise get. Actually I never even argued that people on here were saying he was elite. I said, "I feel some people are worried if we let Poch go that we would be losing an elite manager."

[Max Fowler]

4 hours ago, xceleryx said:

No one ever claimed Poch is elite, much less fear losing him. What an utterly ridiculous statement to make. 

What we don't need right at this very moment is to be chopping and changing managers every 6-8 months because continued instability will only serve to unsettle things more. We're a young side, one that's also plagued by injuries to some fairly significant key players, and still has its general gaps and flaws that most teams possess. With all the whirlwind of change that's happened at the club over the last 18 months a period of stability, particularly on the playing side, is important to just settle things down. 

I don't think anyone, even those of us who were satisfied enough with Poch taking over initially, ever really felt or had the impression he was going to part the seas and be that man to lead us back to glory. You have to look at him as a building block, a guy who has had experience developing younger players and teams, but also with some experience handling slightly more developed sides. Whether he's won anything or not, is kinda irrelevant to the stage we're at right now. 

I like De Zerbi, have seen more of him than probably most on here, and would have been satisfied if he was hired, but there's this real allure that's been created around him since joining the Premier League that's near enough made him seem like the second coming of Pep and everything he's to touch will turn to gold. 

Turning back to a Mourinho or Conte has the real potential to end up extremely messy, and I say that as a big fan of both. Conte is volatile to say the least, and Mourinho has his disruptive flaws as well. 

Then if you look beyond those and the other names put forward;

• Hansi Flick has primarily been an assistant or managed in the lower leagues of Germany 20 years ago - outside of his short spell at Bayern and so-so efforts with Germany NT there's far too many question marks to be had.
• Lopetegui would be too hit and miss at this point, his only decent spell at a club was with Sevilla otherwise he's in and out of roles every 1-2 years.
• Arne Slot being considered safe hands is a stretch, he's had two real main jobs and hasn't managed outside of the Eredivisie. 
• Allegri would be an awful appointment. You want to complain about the football we play now, Allegriball will have you gouging your eyes out. He's also on a stupidly expensive contract, which is a big part in why he probably wasn't fired last season. 
• Ancelotti is the only real sensible one but he'll be 65 in June, so that may see him opt to move into NT management to wind things down. 

The one glaring option you missed IMO, and one that would rival De Zerbi, is Xavi Alonso. Big talk he'll possibly replace Carlo at Madrid, but I could also see him being earmarked to replace Klopp if he was to leave in the near future. What he's done with a young Leverkusen side since taking over has been ridiculous.

Well argued Celery. I suppose as much as anything I am pushing against him being overrated in media and how that is potentially feeding into opinions on here.

The reason I didn't put Xabi Alonso on there is because he seems so destined for Real Madrid that I thought he wasn't gettable. Also Liverpool history etc. - I just don't see it happening.

The reason I named those options is MBIB wanted a safe pair of hands. I am not saying that is the criteria we should use - you're right Slot shouldn't have popped onto that list.

Frankly I am not sure why there are bigger question marks over Flick, for example, than Poch.

And my biggest argument is that the level of results we are seeing is just not sustainable for very many more games at all. I don't particularly complain about the style of football, it's always been about the results. And again, I know we won yesterday, but unless Nkunku makes a big difference or there is some radical transformation, I see us continuing to get unstuck.

This has gone beyond the "normal ups and downs" you and others have pointed to. Our results are completely unacceptable, everyone at the club except you knows that. The next few games will be critical in determining if this continues.

[chara]

Good Post @Max Fowler...

I am far more pragmatic watching the way the season is "progressing".

Just get enough points to be free of real relegation issues...anything better is a bonus..let the team dynamic settle including the coach and the obvious "surplus" that becomes apparent, rather than "opinion" .be shifted either out or to the fringes'

Forget talk of "top 4/6 " and European football....be lambs to the slaughter ...look at a handy side like Newcastle...ahead of us in development......

Unless The Poch shows improvement,,,hopefully with an easier managed injury list,,,then I have no real support for him,,best thing he is not GP for me... replacing him at this time may show a cosmetic improvement but until the dynamic is arrived at I don't believe things will change much....just an OG's opinion...remember Chelsea have faced situations unique to the game whilst attempting to function in the top tier...no easy task for settled clubs let alone one rebuilding whilst reeling from "outside" influences.

Keep expectations down and accept things are not shaken out properly yet...don't "blame" any of the usual suspects...the circumstances are what they are..the ultimate villains and cause of the present situation?...HMG as we well know.

No..I am not happy with anything from the top down but again it is what it is..Patience and Points ....not Pole Position.. should be our Mantra at this time.

Edited December 17, 2023 by chara

[CarefreeMuratcan]

13 hours ago, chara said:

OK..De Zerbi....analysed opinion,,,,,don;t want him,,don't like him think he's unproven in real long term,,,plus he looks like a ferret and that is enough for a seasoned OG like me.

He looks like Turkish rock singer Hayko Çepkin:

[Chelsea_Matt]

De Zerbi is imo just the latest shiny new toy, like Potter was. Brighton lost again today btw. 

[boratsbrother]

3 hours ago, CarefreeMuratcan said:

He looks like Turkish rock singer Hayko Çepkin:

In years to come we might have AI generated managers. I certainly wouldn't mind  having a Debbie Harry from 1978 managing us.❤️

[chara]

42 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

In years to come we might have AI generated managers. I certainly wouldn't mind  having a Debbie Harry from 1978 managing us.❤️

I think I would prefer Ma Kettle...for the real OGs🤣

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, boratsbrother said:

In years to come we might have AI generated managers. I certainly wouldn't mind  having a Debbie Harry from 1978 managing us.❤️

Picture this!
My bedroom wall c 1977 along with the album cover from Abraxas.

[xceleryx]

15 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Well argued Celery. I suppose as much as anything I am pushing against him being overrated in media and how that is potentially feeding into opinions on here.

The reason I didn't put Xabi Alonso on there is because he seems so destined for Real Madrid that I thought he wasn't gettable. Also Liverpool history etc. - I just don't see it happening.

The reason I named those options is MBIB wanted a safe pair of hands. I am not saying that is the criteria we should use - you're right Slot shouldn't have popped onto that list.

Frankly I am not sure why there are bigger question marks over Flick, for example, than Poch.

And my biggest argument is that the level of results we are seeing is just not sustainable for very many more games at all. I don't particularly complain about the style of football, it's always been about the results. And again, I know we won yesterday, but unless Nkunku makes a big difference or there is some radical transformation, I see us continuing to get unstuck.

This has gone beyond the "normal ups and downs" you and others have pointed to. Our results are completely unacceptable, everyone at the club except you knows that. The next few games will be critical in determining if this continues.

All fair enough, although where I will say otherwise is with Flick. His hat virtually rests on a brief spell at Bayern. And while what he did there was impressive in terms of what he won and his general record, you do have to take into consideration the side he had and the small sample size. Up until then he was, as I said in my last post, largely an assistant manager. It would be natural to have reservations about how he'd fair as a manager when he's not got a stacked world class side at his disposal and in a more competitive league. 

Poch on the other hand, like him or not,  is more of a known quantity. Both in terms of longevity and as a Premier League manager. 

Flick has maybe the higher ceiling, but he's also the bigger gamble. Poch isn't going to be elite, but he offers a greater middle ground and experience with younger sides, the latter is arguably what we need in a time where there's been constant change. 

Our results and performances have been up and down, but that's indicative of what we are right now. It's not a matter of there just being a coaching issue and changing that will magically turn our fortunes around tenfold, there's several layers to this that have all had a varied impact this season. Poch's management has been one factor, so have injuries, so has the young nature of the squad, and the general gaps we have in some key areas. The bulk of these are going to remain factors for any manager that we employ, at least for the time being. Maybe once we address a few of these matters they'll be more consistency seen. Right now though I wouldn't say awful management is why we are where we are but that's just me, others may choose to see it differently and that's fine.

[flllerywhereru2]

13 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

In years to come we might have AI generated managers. I certainly wouldn't mind  having a Debbie Harry from 1978 managing us.❤️

Sir you have won the competition hands down...maybe we can come out to one way or another and play Shayla at Half time....the future is bright...