Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Chelsea_Matt]

2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think we can all get caught up in the gloom and doom can't we?

When the going gets tough, Mr K… 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Mark Kelly]

3 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

When the going gets tough, Mr K… 🤷🏻‍♂️

It'll get better , even next season if Poch stays it'll be better , they'll start working out how to play together without any help from him

[Ham]

3 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

It'll get better , even next season if Poch stays it'll be better , they'll start working out how to play together without any help from him

I swear they're already doing that. 

[Mark Kelly]

12 minutes ago, Ham said:

I swear they're already doing that. 

The seeds are there in my opinion too.

[chara]

Potter ?...better?,,,,no but The Poch in many ways IS worse...it's not so much that he's the waste Potter was..imho...but he is sort of poor average and not even trying to be better or so it appears to me.

Every season we see the usual 2/3 desperate relegation fodder sides with coaches bleeding with effort to get their doomed sides above the watermark...... a bit of that Alamo approach would make a difference even with the young squad and obvious drawbacks The Poch faces......FFS man CARE!

[boratsbrother]

21 hours ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

There’s no real spirit - they don’t even seem to like each other. 

Even of they don't like each other I don't see it as s big problem.

Teddy Sheringham and Andy Coke were not on speaking terms off the pitch but that never had any negative effect of them during games. 

It's all about being a good professional. There's been many a top musician who didn't really get on with a bandmate but they were still able to put their differences aside to make great music. Same with movie stars etc.

[Chelsea_Matt]

20 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Even of they don't like each other I don't see it as s big problem.

Teddy Sheringham and Andy Coke were not on speaking terms off the pitch but that never had any negative effect of them during games. 

It's all about being a good professional. There's been many a top musician who didn't really get on with a bandmate but they were still able to put their differences aside to make great music. Same with movie stars etc.

Yeah. You’re right but it does help. And the difference is that imo we’re a terrible, gutless and weak side - I don’t like saying it. But in my opinion, that’s what we are. 

[boratsbrother]

8 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

Yeah. You’re right but it does help. And the difference is that imo we’re a terrible, gutless and weak side - I don’t like saying it. But in my opinion, that’s what we are. 

Imho the players are leaderless down the spine of the team, nervous  in tight situations rather than gutless and weak. 

They faught back again on Saturday when they looked like they were going to fall apart,  like they were doing last season. They've done this a number of times this season too, including the City game. 

I know I'm a broken record on this, but time and patience is what these players need. 

Edited March 4 by boratsbrother

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, boratsbrother said:

 

I know I'm a broken record on this, but time and patience is what these players need. 

I agree but what they really need is proper coaching , something they're not getting any of.

[Chelsea_Matt]

5 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Imho the players are leaderless down the spine of the team, nervous  in tight situations rather than gutless and weak. 

They faught back again on Saturday when they looked like they were going to fall apart,  like they were doing last season. They've done this a number of times this season too, including the City game. 

I know I'm a broken record on this, but time and patience is what these players need. 

I’ll respectfully disagree - but hope you’re right bro 👀🩶💜

[east lower]

5 hours ago, xceleryx said:

This is a bit different though and IMO leans more on leadership being the issue over the group itself not being close knit. Generally when things aren't going well, or when you need that extra lift, it's the leaders that stand up and carry the side on their shoulders. This I would agree we miss in spades and needs amending in the summer.

 

And who’s the leader of the group?

As an esteemed member of the forum, has previously said “all roads lead to the coach”.

He ain’t wrong, in my opinion.

[chara]

2 hours ago, east lower said:

And who’s the leader of the group?

As an esteemed member of the forum, has previously said “all roads lead to the coach”.

He ain’t wrong, in my opinion.

Game time Captain and coach need to be on the same page and in tune with each other,,,, I'm not sure The Poch is in tune with any game..probably a bit unfair but in the time of AVB v JT and crew the players were strong enough to ignore "bad"  instructions from the side and generally sort things out on the field but who is there to question The Poch ?...Silva possibly but a voice in the wilderness I would think with no support around him.

How easy in a working life it is to  swan along just doing the minimum to get the paycheck rather than stretching for the heights..... I think what we are watching is a man content to take the money without pushing himself...that is if there is anything there to push.

[east lower]

24 minutes ago, chara said:

Game time Captain and coach need to be on the same page and in tune with each other,,,, I'm not sure The Poch is in tune with any game..probably a bit unfair but in the time of AVB v JT and crew the players were strong enough to ignore "bad"  instructions from the side and generally sort things out on the field but who is there to question The Poch ?...Silva possibly but a voice in the wilderness I would think with no support around him.

How easy in a working life it is to  swan along just doing the minimum to get the paycheck rather than stretching for the heights..... I think what we are watching is a man content to take the money without pushing himself...that is if there is anything there to push.

If you’ve read John Terry’s book it wasn’t just AVB’s stint that the ‘spine’ took charge of, They did the same with Average Grant.

And sometimes it’s not the playing ‘spine’ that pulls a TEAM through. Remember when Ray Wilkins was unceremoniously sacked, we were top of the league and struggled thereafter. One of the few mistakes that the owner made. He hired a couple of duds and got taken by Grant but by and large made correct, if unpopular decisions at times. 

This current lot are the polar opposite of that. No leaders - that’s down to the owners and the coach, in that order.

When the chips are down Flopachino, is left wanting and has done so throughout his career. The main reason I was sceptical of his appointment.

Edited March 4 by east lower

[xceleryx]

3 hours ago, east lower said:

And who’s the leader of the group?

As an esteemed member of the forum, has previously said “all roads lead to the coach”.

He ain’t wrong, in my opinion.

There's multiple forms of leadership. 

You have it from a management side that lead a group etc. Then you have your on pitch leaders that rise when required and drag their side through tough moments over the course of a match. 

We may lack in both departments overall, but the on pitch leadership is virtually nonexistent. It's a fundamental weak spot of this group that's been assembled. Even if we had a manager that demonstrated top tier leadership qualities they're also only able to do so much once the ball is kicked. We've seen on numerous occasions the power of having genuine leaders on the pitch and what influence they have, even when we've not necessarily had the best manager on the sidelines. 

People can certainly question and argue Poch's future, but we still lack on pitch leadership no matter which way we look at it. Until that's resolved we'll continue to fall short in areas where the influence of this can be felt. 

[east lower]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

There's multiple forms of leadership. 

You have it from a management side that lead a group etc. Then you have your on pitch leaders that rise when required and drag their side through tough moments over the course of a match. 

We may lack in both departments overall, but the on pitch leadership is virtually nonexistent. It's a fundamental weak spot of this group that's been assembled. Even if we had a manager that demonstrated top tier leadership qualities they're also only able to do so much once the ball is kicked. We've seen on numerous occasions the power of having genuine leaders on the pitch and what influence they have, even when we've not necessarily had the best manager on the sidelines. 

People can certainly question and argue Poch's future, but we still lack on pitch leadership no matter which way we look at it. Until that's resolved we'll continue to fall short in areas where the influence of this can be felt. 

To lead you also need to be able to believe.

Remember the interview after the 2012 win, with Drogba if I recall correctly. Question went something like how did you do it, and Drogba basically said “I kept telling them to believe”

You have to believe in your own leaders abilities - who leads the leaders and who motivates the motivators?

Does anyone remember Frank Lampard and Drogba being leaders in the first few years of their respective careers at Chelsea? They led when they were made to believe that they were just that by a great leader. I wouldn’t follow that ‘dry-lunch’ coach of ours out of the house if it were burning.

What we may not have is a natural leader in the mould of a John Terry as regards the players.  The ones we have are floundering and it’s because of the lack of a leader at the helm and that’s why there’s no way back for the coach. Quite frankly, the one thing that may be saving him from being gone already is the lack of leadership and experience within the playing staff. Terry and co, would have pulled him or had him called out by now.

Edited March 4 by east lower

[xceleryx]

28 minutes ago, east lower said:

To lead you also need to be able to believe.

Remember the interview after the 2012 win, with Drogba if I recall correctly. Question went something like how did you do it, and Drogba basically said “I kept telling them to believe”

You have to believe in your own leaders abilities - who leads the leaders and who motivates the motivators?

Does anyone remember Frank Lampard and Drogba being leaders in the first few years of their respective careers at Chelsea? They led when they were made to believe that they were just that by a great leader. I wouldn’t follow that ‘dry-lunch’ coach of ours out of the house if it were burning.

What we may not have is a natural leader in the mould of a John Terry as regards the players.  The ones we have are floundering and it’s because of the lack of a leader at the helm and that’s why there’s no way back for the coach. Quite frankly, the one thing that may be saving him from being gone already is the lack of leadership and experience within the playing staff. Terry and co, would have pulled him or had him called out by now.

I think you're putting a bit too much emphasis on the coach being the big difference maker here, when in reality it's generally more about player personalities and how they lead and motivate those around them on the pitch. Not saying a coach doesn't have an influence on this, but when you're actually in the thick of the action it really is more about the leadership on the pitch than anything else.

When you view our squad there's no real leaders that can inspire those around them, nor take a hold of a situation and wrestle it into their teams favour. The fact someone like Reece James, and this isn't a knock on him,  has been appointed our club captain speaks volumes. There's nothing really he presents from a personal perspective that screams leader. A good player of course when fit, but one that isn't going to marshal the troops. Similar applies with those who've filled his captaincy role since, with the exception of maybe Gallagher who's genuine desire and ability to get stuck in can provide a spark on occasions.

We used to have big personalities within the team, so it's no great surprise that they also added leadership and inspiration when needing to dig deeper. But that's also part and process of developing a side and letting these players grow and possibly develop into these roles. That said, I'm unsure there's anyone on hand that really fits that bill as of yet. 

Again, maybe a better manager does more to harness and develop this, but at its core you have to have the players with aligning personalities and mentality to hold such roles. It's extremely difficult to turn someone without those core qualities into a leader, irrespective of how great a coach may be. 

 

[chara]

@kev61......the voice of real nitty gritty playing experience..agree 100%....a coach can lead you to playing better and give you goals as in targets to reach but no one can give you the inner strength and self belief needed if you just don't have that intangible.

Two thoughts,,,it has been my experience that many or most I played with at any level really showed their true inner self on a competitive field,,,the cowards in life were the cowards on the field,,the stalwarts always there and the leaders always rose to the occasion,a lot of quiet guys became monsters on the field and led with a fury and desire.

A team of stalwarts will always win some lose some...a team of stalwarts with one or two true leaders is a side made to win.

Aside..packleaders in dogs..if no one or pack member takes the lead another lesser character will try to take the role.....

The problem is they are not really equipped for the task...and it shows.

[east lower]

6 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I think you're putting a bit too much emphasis on the coach being the big difference maker here, when in reality it's generally more about player personalities and how they lead and motivate those around them on the pitch. Not saying a coach doesn't have an influence on this, but when you're actually in the thick of the action it really is more about the leadership on the pitch than anything else.

When you view our squad there's no real leaders that can inspire those around them, nor take a hold of a situation and wrestle it into their teams favour. The fact someone like Reece James, and this isn't a knock on him,  has been appointed our club captain speaks volumes. There's nothing really he presents from a personal perspective that screams leader. A good player of course when fit, but one that isn't going to marshal the troops. Similar applies with those who've filled his captaincy role since, with the exception of maybe Gallagher who's genuine desire and ability to get stuck in can provide a spark on occasions.

We used to have big personalities within the team, so it's no great surprise that they also added leadership and inspiration when needing to dig deeper. But that's also part and process of developing a side and letting these players grow and possibly develop into these roles. That said, I'm unsure there's anyone on hand that really fits that bill as of yet. 

Again, maybe a better manager does more to harness and develop this, but at its core you have to have the players with aligning personalities and mentality to hold such roles. It's extremely difficult to turn someone without those core qualities into a leader, irrespective of how great a coach may be. 

 

There’s lots of evidence to suggest that the coach makes a significant difference. AVB vs RDM, Scolari vs Ancelotti, Lampard vs Tuchel.

The latter also evidencing that a great leader on the field doesn’t always translate into a great leader off it.

Where we probably agree is whether this current bunch have leadership qualities within them - but we’ll not know under the current fella as he isn’t going to make them believe. Young players will already have seen enough to know good from bad/mediocre as regards a coach and they’ll have him figured by now.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

There’s lots of evidence to suggest that the coach makes a significant difference. AVB vs RDM, Scolari vs Ancelotti, Lampard vs Tuchel.

The latter also evidencing that a great leader on the field doesn’t always translate into a great leader off it.

Where we probably agree is whether this current bunch have leadership qualities within them - but we’ll not know under the current fella as he isn’t going to make them believe. Young players will already have seen enough to know good from bad/mediocre as regards a coach and they’ll have him figured by now.

There's also plenty of evidence that points in the other direction, where it's strong personalities of the players that lead the team while a less equipped manager is on the sidelines. 

I agree, being a leader on the pitch doesn't necessarily translate to that also being the case of it. 

I've held a pretty solid stance that this group lacks leadership as it currently stands. In fact, I was vocal of this being an issue quite a few years ago before ownership changed and the construction of our squad. We've lacked a solid core of leadership for some time now, getting by with two or three senior players carrying the load (Rudiger, Azpilicueta and Jorginho). None of those we sold really stepped up or showcased the qualities needed outside of possibly Mount, and this current group is obviously very young and still developing. The senior figures we do have outside of Thiago Silva don't fill this void either, which also hasn't helped matters.

Injecting a bit of experience and leadership over the summer should be just as important as filling a couple of our key positions of need. 

[Original 21]

Not sure we’ll end up with the managers we’re being linked to (Amorim, Alonso etc) because they’re more likely to choose Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Liverpool over us. 

Let’s face it, which elite manager is going to want to come to a dysfunctional club like ours, with no European football, an unbalanced and inexperienced squad, a Board that thinks it knows best, a questionable “project”, with no say on transfers? 

Not saying we can’t find a decent alternative to Pochettino. I’m almost of the view that whoever comes can’t do much worse. Just that we’re going to be at the back of the queue when the managerial merry-go-round comes this summer.

 

Edited March 5 by Original 21

[Bison]

I'd like to throw a name into the hat: Gary O'Neil. 

[blueandproud]

24 minutes ago, Bison said:

I'd like to throw a name into the hat: Gary O'Neil. 

Not for me.  I actually like him, but I fear like Graham Potter he would be moving out of his depth.  He's only been in charge at Wolves for 5 minutes, that's not enough for me.

[Mark Kelly]

23 minutes ago, Bison said:

I'd like to throw a name into the hat: Gary O'Neil. 

He's been excellent so far at Wolves and did a good job at Bournemouth too 

He'd do a better job than Pochettino but most would.

[Chelsea_Matt]

3 hours ago, Original 21 said:

Not sure we’ll end up with the managers we’re being linked to (Amorim, Alonso etc) because they’re more likely to choose Barcelona, Bayern Munich and Liverpool over us. 

Let’s face it, which elite manager is going to want to come to a dysfunctional club like ours, with no European football, an unbalanced and inexperienced squad, a Board that thinks it knows best, a questionable “project”, with no say on transfers? 

Not saying we can’t find a decent alternative to Pochettino. I’m almost of the view that whoever comes can’t do much worse. Just that we’re going to be at the back of the queue when the managerial merry-go-round comes this summer.

 

Yeeeeeeeeeessss….but even now….it’s still Chelsea. And a great challenge (to say the least…!). 🙌🏻👀

[east lower]

12 hours ago, xceleryx said:

There's also plenty of evidence that points in the other direction, where it's strong personalities of the players that lead the team while a less equipped manager is on the sidelines. 

I agree, being a leader on the pitch doesn't necessarily translate to that also being the case of it. 

I've held a pretty solid stance that this group lacks leadership as it currently stands. In fact, I was vocal of this being an issue quite a few years ago before ownership changed and the construction of our squad. We've lacked a solid core of leadership for some time now, getting by with two or three senior players carrying the load (Rudiger, Azpilicueta and Jorginho). None of those we sold really stepped up or showcased the qualities needed outside of possibly Mount, and this current group is obviously very young and still developing. The senior figures we do have outside of Thiago Silva don't fill this void either, which also hasn't helped matters.

Injecting a bit of experience and leadership over the summer should be just as important as filling a couple of our key positions of need. 

Which is what was said in the Grant era and that I mentioned.

The owners have ridden the club of experience, what would make them do a 180  and go back and buy it in. Other than an admission that they completely got it wrong and pity taken two seasons to understand that. They don’t have that contrition in them in my view. 

It’s a royal mess, from the top through to the coach and probably a number of recruits. The level of incompetence displayed in any other sector would get a vote of no confidence in the board and they’d have to go. But they won’t sack themselves, best we can hope for is an ownership change and there are clauses that permit this and we get competent owners.