Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

Agree generally, but Bielsa not so sure. He didn’t do it for me. 

Ancelotti is now having criminal charges brought on him by the Spanish authorities for tax fraud. He might be open to an exit?

His managerial career has been  excellent , but it’s built largely around his ability to manage elite level players. Whether it be Milan , Madrid, Chelsea . 
The complete outlier on his Cv is Everton. He did fairly well, but it’s generally been the only club on his CV in the last 30 years that doesn’t quite fit. He likely got paid a bomb to go there with little pressure. Chelsea MKII would be the second club that wouldn’t fit with Ancelloti Cv, were he to come back here in its current condition. 

[east lower]

13 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

His managerial career has been  excellent , but it’s built largely around his ability to manage elite level players. Whether it be Milan , Madrid, Chelsea . 
The complete outlier on his Cv is Everton. He did fairly well, but it’s generally been the only club on his CV in the last 30 years that doesn’t quite fit. He likely got paid a bomb to go there with little pressure. Chelsea MKII would be the second club that wouldn’t fit with Ancelloti Cv, were he to come back here in its current condition. 

You may well have a point with the experience of our players and Carlo’s record, however he has seen young men break into his sides - exceptionally talented ones though.

It’s a sad indictment of our owners that there is even a discussion taking place as to whether he’s an acceptable option.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

Well, somebody did and it wasn’t me 😇 or probably you, although I do have my suspicions as you do seem to row against the tide of evidence in front of you Todd/Eggy 😉.

But, of course they have ridden the club of experience and as importantly, identity. They oversee and direct the whole show and have done for two years. 

They might understand numbers, they might rely on a statistical approach but crucially they didn’t and still don’t understand culture and the impact that a lack of identity and experience brings. 

If people can’t see the value that a Jorginho might bring us now, then I’m afraid to say their understanding of a ‘team’ is lacking in depth. Kante, who is now not missing games, Kovacic. I’d suggest we would have more points on the table with those than without. To rid the team of those was crass mismanagement that the owners at the very least oversaw and at the worst directed and probably to fund the quite frankly ludicrous idea that young men with little or no PL experience would ultimately lead to success.

A leadership lacking knowledge, not understanding the values of identity and culture - no wonder we are in the state we are. Put a hapless/hopeless coach into the mix and voila - we are where we are! 

Culture - An example, Roman got to know that the media in general despise us. A cultural thing, based on the media’s own bias’s and the hatred of the success and rapid equalisation that the then owner’s funds brought. This lot then naively attempt to ingratiate themselves, going full-on open book with the spiteful b*****ds. Firing Tuchel, another example and hiring the dud exasperated it.

They are, in their own spectrum of operations as hopelessly out of their depth/zone as is the coach. What a wonderful place to be! Add in to the mix the absolute commercialism employed to date, and thus far it’s the small things that are giving it away (culture) and it’s no wonder that most engaged people I speak with believe them not to be owners that bring success.

I'm neither for nor against ownership, I don't think they took over in the best of positions nor have necessarily made flawless decisions since. They're certainly accountable to some degree.

You're barking up the wrong tree when it comes to Jorginho, I was one of the few who understood his value and wanting him to be retained. That said, also understand why we cashed in when we did (even if I wasn't necessarily for it).

As for the others, Kante plays in a two bob league where there's a fraction of the intensity. Even putting that aside he wasn't a leadership figure anyway and had missed more games than he was playing in recent years. Kova wasn't a game changer, again when he was here last season and we needed him to step up he did nothing of the sort. We may or may not have had more points with these players being retained but they also weren't the solution to any of our problems either. Also keeping in mind that all these players would've required new contract at wages that probably wouldn't have been justified at this stage of their careers. 

Not going to argue the cultural stuff as I do think the ball has been dropped here. The original point of discussion was experience and leadership, while we both agree it's lacking there's a difference on the "why". As I've said before, and still retain the same opinion now, looking back at who we let go from the senior side of things I don't believe we made bad choices here once factoring in form, fitness, output, and the cost of keeping them around. 

 

 

[chara]

I think the "Board" and Admin set up has to be looked at separately from the actual coaching "on the grass"set up.

Of course The Board lay out the Club Organisation and we can argue (and do!) regarding the results of the rebuild at the "Admin" level and the playing/coach level but as pointed out The Poch signed on the dotted line to handle the playing side of the Club and regardless of the players he was presented with and  difficult situation that arose he is just not doing a good job.

The Poch is responsible,... AND WELL PAID.. for team performance and individual performances..he is not succeeding in the job he chose to take,,in the Real World we all know what that means,

Go now or end of season is a non issue for me...there will be no Europe entry..and that is not a bad thing imho as going into Europe at any level next season to be inexperienced cannon fodder would be a disaster... although not to be ignored relegation is not really a threat so lets just get to the end of this distasteful season and regroup hopefully with some solid new arrivals,,I don't want "stars": I want effective hard working GOOD EPL standard newcomers.

The "I'm Spartacus" moment for MK!

[xceleryx]

3 hours ago, east lower said:

You may well have a point with the experience of our players and Carlo’s record, however he has seen young men break into his sides - exceptionally talented ones though.

It’s a sad indictment of our owners that there is even a discussion taking place as to whether he’s an acceptable option.

He'll be 65 in June and I think once his time in Madrid ends he'll slide into NT management. 

Great man manager but there is a pretty big gap when it comes to developing young players that aren't already tiers above most.

[xceleryx]

6 minutes ago, chara said:

I think the "Board" and Admin set up has to be looked at separately from the actual coaching "on the grass"set up.

Of course The Board lay out the Club Organisation and we can argue (and do!) regarding the results of the rebuild at the "Admin" level and the playing/coach level but as pointed out The Poch signed on the dotted line to handle the playing side of the Club and regardless of the players he was presented with and  difficult situation that arose he is just not doing a good job.

The Poch is responsible,... AND WELL PAID.. for team performance and individual performances..he is not succeeding in the job he chose to take,,in the Real World we all know what that means,

Go now or end of season is a non issue for me...there will be no Europe entry..and that is not a bad thing imho as going into Europe at any level next season to be inexperienced cannon fodder would be a disaster... although not to be ignored relegation is not really a threat so lets just get to the end of this distasteful season and regroup hopefully with some solid new arrivals,,I don't want "stars": I want effective hard working GOOD EPL standard newcomers.

The "I'm Spartacus" moment for MK!

Coaching, as you know, is such a multi-layered thing. You're going to get ones who excel from, and to use a basketball analogy here, an x's and o's standpoint but lack man management or the personable skills to nurture. On the flip side there's those that don't excel or hold strong tactical acumen but are brilliant when it comes to managing players, personalities, and motivating. With plenty falling in between. 

There's unlikely to ever be a "perfect" candidate, meaning somewhere along the line sacrifices in certain areas have to be made for possibly alternative traits. I see Poch as more that good man manager type, as I do think he's done an excellent job keeping moral and the group pretty close together despite the up and down nature of things. It does seem like the young players like him, basing it from Cole Palmers recent interview, and how he takes interest in non-footballing matters of his players. 

It's a tricky situation. And as I expressed moments ago in the transfer thread, this summer is going to see plenty of managerial movement between some big clubs with Bayern, Barca and Liverpool already confirmed for new managers. With several other clubs possibly also inline. It'll be a tussle for some of the more attractive candidates, so I'll not be surprised if Poch ends up leading us into next season. 

[Michael Tucker]

28 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

, so I'll not be surprised if Poch ends up leading us into next season. 

Me neither. 'Disappointed', but not 'surprised' in the least.

[Thiago97]

7 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Coaching, as you know, is such a multi-layered thing. You're going to get ones who excel from, and to use a basketball analogy here, an x's and o's standpoint but lack man management or the personable skills to nurture. On the flip side there's those that don't excel or hold strong tactical acumen but are brilliant when it comes to managing players, personalities, and motivating. With plenty falling in between. 

There's unlikely to ever be a "perfect" candidate, meaning somewhere along the line sacrifices in certain areas have to be made for possibly alternative traits. I see Poch as more that good man manager type, as I do think he's done an excellent job keeping moral and the group pretty close together despite the up and down nature of things. It does seem like the young players like him, basing it from Cole Palmers recent interview, and how he takes interest in non-footballing matters of his players. 

It's a tricky situation. And as I expressed moments ago in the transfer thread, this summer is going to see plenty of managerial movement between some big clubs with Bayern, Barca and Liverpool already confirmed for new managers. With several other clubs possibly also inline. It'll be a tussle for some of the more attractive candidates, so I'll not be surprised if Poch ends up leading us into next season. 

Agreed . Generally speaking, this is also how I view Poch. He is almost a lite foreign version of Harry Redknapp. 
It’s clear that the players enjoy playing under him, and for where most of them are in their careers right now, he fits quite well.

He does probably have a limited lifespan here though. How we perform over the last third of the season pretty much defines if Poch will be the man to lead the club next season. Whilst I am in full support of Poch and the job he is doing, I don’t think it has much longevity past next season. 

[east lower]

7 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I'm neither for nor against ownership, I don't think they took over in the best of positions nor have necessarily made flawless decisions since. They're certainly accountable to some degree.

You're barking up the wrong tree when it comes to Jorginho, I was one of the few who understood his value and wanting him to be retained. That said, also understand why we cashed in when we did (even if I wasn't necessarily for it).

As for the others, Kante plays in a two bob league where there's a fraction of the intensity. Even putting that aside he wasn't a leadership figure anyway and had missed more games than he was playing in recent years. Kova wasn't a game changer, again when he was here last season and we needed him to step up he did nothing of the sort. We may or may not have had more points with these players being retained but they also weren't the solution to any of our problems either. Also keeping in mind that all these players would've required new contract at wages that probably wouldn't have been justified at this stage of their careers. 

Not going to argue the cultural stuff as I do think the ball has been dropped here. The original point of discussion was experience and leadership, while we both agree it's lacking there's a difference on the "why". As I've said before, and still retain the same opinion now, looking back at who we let go from the senior side of things I don't believe we made bad choices here once factoring in form, fitness, output, and the cost of keeping them around. 

 

 

The experience that both Jorginho and Kante would have been able to offer younger players would have been invaluable. As for a ‘two-bob’ league, it may be. But judge the metrics before deciding whether that’s an indication of whether Kante was injury burdened or whether our staff didn’t have his treatment and recovery well planned and executed. Two other ex-players also seem to be less injured but is that also because they’re playing in a ‘two-bob’ league? 
 

If you believe that Kante didn’t lead, by example if nothing else then I can’t say much else. Whenever there’s inexperienced people in a team, be that sports or other scenarios - one of the most supportive things that can be  put in place by the seniors is correctly allocated mentoring systems. The owners and the coach have allowed and done the polar opposite.  They’ve thrown the young men to the wolves (and the Forest’s, the Brentford’s, etc) and that’s despicable.

I accept that certain player’s probably were disposed of because of the wage structure and funding matters, 2 years in and it’s a disaster - worked out well that ‘two-bob’, sorry ONE BILLION POUND strategy.

Player interviews, if people take any of them seriously more fool them. Lip-service at best, information to rely on - not a chance. Palmer left Man City to play more games, he’s doing that, I’ll give him one more season and if our standards and standing don’t improve he and others will be agitating for moves.

I’m resigned to things staying the way they are until season end (coach should have gone months ago) but I suspect it’s going to get very uncomfortable should results and performances stay as they have been and it’s been two-thirds of a season now, so the coach isn’t suddenly going to become Guardiola or Klopp like.

I’m not advocating for Ancelotti, but he’s a damn site better coach than the one we have.

[east lower]

9 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Agreed . Generally speaking, this is also how I view Poch. He is almost a lite foreign version of Harry Redknapp. 
It’s clear that the players enjoy playing under him, and for where most of them are in their careers right now, he fits quite well.

He does probably have a limited lifespan here though. How we perform over the last third of the season pretty much defines if Poch will be the man to lead the club next season. Whilst I am in full support of Poch and the job he is doing, I don’t think it has much longevity past next season. 

There aren’t many happy faces on the pitch let me tell you. Same vibe there as seen with AVB and Potter. Remember the interviews with players when Potter was here - all happy, clappy stuff. 

It beats me when it’s said they’re enjoying themselves, they look as miserable as sin except when scoring. I’ve seen together sides and this lot are not that. That doesn’t surprise me though, unfortunately. 

I watch them traipse off the pitch, heads down, a few straight down the tunnel, a few with half-hearted appreciation of the support being offered by the fans and a few who mean it. A couple of the French lads seem to have a thing going, the rest of them - next to no spirit. 

I don’t see a Rudiger type character, coming up to the crowd after a game and making his and the team’s point (which he did at Arsenal, after a heavy defeat there). That’s spirit.
 

 

[Thiago97]

43 minutes ago, east lower said:

There aren’t many happy faces on the pitch let me tell you. Same vibe there as seen with AVB and Potter. Remember the interviews with players when Potter was here - all happy, clappy stuff. 

It beats me when it’s said they’re enjoying themselves, they look as miserable as sin except when scoring. I’ve seen together sides and this lot are not that. That doesn’t surprise me though, unfortunately. 

I watch them traipse off the pitch, heads down, a few straight down the tunnel, a few with half-hearted appreciation of the support being offered by the fans and a few who mean it. A couple of the French lads seem to have a thing going, the rest of them - next to no spirit. 

I don’t see a Rudiger type character, coming up to the crowd after a game and making his and the team’s point (which he did at Arsenal, after a heavy defeat there). That’s spirit.
 

 

I think the results speak for themselves on this point. At many points through this season, it could have turned into a lost dressing room where they down tools and lose 5 straight. It hasn’t happened, every time the situation has been on the edge of turning, we have found a result and performance. 
I agree completely on the characters. However, that is Rudiger’s personality and character. He played the game that way too. That character was not there because of how things were under the manager.

 

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

I’m not advocating for Ancelotti, but he’s a damn site better coach than the one we have.

coaching continuity of promotions from within the club and being part of the first team setup, seemed to die death around the conte era.  Came back a bit during Frank & TT but under the nobody coach and poch, they brought in their own coaching teams who have no idea of the Chelsea expectations and passions, which could be one of the reasons why it looks like none are playing for the shirt. 

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

The experience that both Jorginho and Kante would have been able to offer younger players would have been invaluable. As for a ‘two-bob’ league, it may be. But judge the metrics before deciding whether that’s an indication of whether Kante was injury burdened or whether our staff didn’t have his treatment and recovery well planned and executed. Two other ex-players also seem to be less injured but is that also because they’re playing in a ‘two-bob’ league? 
 

If you believe that Kante didn’t lead, by example if nothing else then I can’t say much else. Whenever there’s inexperienced people in a team, be that sports or other scenarios - one of the most supportive things that can be  put in place by the seniors is correctly allocated mentoring systems. The owners and the coach have allowed and done the polar opposite.  They’ve thrown the young men to the wolves (and the Forest’s, the Brentford’s, etc) and that’s despicable.

I accept that certain player’s probably were disposed of because of the wage structure and funding matters, 2 years in and it’s a disaster - worked out well that ‘two-bob’, sorry ONE BILLION POUND strategy.

Player interviews, if people take any of them seriously more fool them. Lip-service at best, information to rely on - not a chance. Palmer left Man City to play more games, he’s doing that, I’ll give him one more season and if our standards and standing don’t improve he and others will be agitating for moves.

I’m resigned to things staying the way they are until season end (coach should have gone months ago) but I suspect it’s going to get very uncomfortable should results and performances stay as they have been and it’s been two-thirds of a season now, so the coach isn’t suddenly going to become Guardiola or Klopp like.

I’m not advocating for Ancelotti, but he’s a damn site better coach than the one we have.

Jorginho, I agree. Kante, less so. The latter simply wasn't playing enough minutes in more recent years and never really demonstrated leadership qualities IMO. While a fantastic player, his personality and general nature wasn't really that of a leader and he wasn't seeing enough of the pitch for his playing to do the leading either. Well yeah, those two others have also joined far less physically demanding leagues and as such have played more football - just like Kante. You'd have to go back to 2018/19 for the last time Kante played over 2500 league minutes. His style was never going to be sustainable and playing in a league that is virtually 4 teams and at a fraction of the intensity is a massive factor.

Again, don't disagree that we've thrown our young lot into the deep end and are in need of more experience. I simply don't see the senior players we had, outside of Jorginho, as being the solution to this given where they were at in their careers with respects to form and fitness. 

[east lower]

52 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I think the results speak for themselves on this point. At many points through this season, it could have turned into a lost dressing room where they down tools and lose 5 straight. It hasn’t happened, every time the situation has been on the edge of turning, we have found a result and performance. 
I agree completely on the characters. However, that is Rudiger’s personality and character. He played the game that way too. That character was not there because of how things were under the manager.

 

He didn't act that way under Lampard, when he did play.

As far as performances go, the only ones in the whole of the season against other PL teams that were acceptable-to-good were Liverpool home, Arsenal home, Man City home, Luton for 60 mins away, Spurs for 25 mins of the first half away.

If I were being kind some others have been 'ordinary', a fair number poor and as many as noted above as good - appalling.

Results speak for themselves, agreed - We are 11th and the last 5 results are Loss, Loss, Win, Draw, Draw. 16 points from the relegation zone and 27 points off the league leaders. 

While the runners and riders are getting ready for Cheltenham and Aintree, we're saddling-up for Fontwell & Cartmel.

[east lower]

18 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Jorginho, I agree. Kante, less so. The latter simply wasn't playing enough minutes in more recent years and never really demonstrated leadership qualities IMO. While a fantastic player, his personality and general nature wasn't really that of a leader and he wasn't seeing enough of the pitch for his playing to do the leading either. Well yeah, those two others have also joined far less physically demanding leagues and as such have played more football - just like Kante. You'd have to go back to 2018/19 for the last time Kante played over 2500 league minutes. His style was never going to be sustainable and playing in a league that is virtually 4 teams and at a fraction of the intensity is a massive factor.

Again, don't disagree that we've thrown our young lot into the deep end and are in need of more experience. I simply don't see the senior players we had, outside of Jorginho, as being the solution to this given where they were at in their careers with respects to form and fitness. 

Kante could have and would have been massive for Caicedo - Sharing some load and mentoring. Jorginho the same for Caicedo and Enzo. Another season would have sufficed, the rest that went were no massive loss.

Injuries can just as easily occur if you do not train or condition yourself properly and play at 80% as opposed to 100%. Worst injury I sustained was in a mid-season friendly played at half-pace. Personally I don't think that Kante can play any other way than at full intensity, the fella doesn't have that attitude in his make-up. It's what helped make him the player he is and has been.

[Thiago97]

23 minutes ago, east lower said:

He didn't act that way under Lampard, when he did play.

As far as performances go, the only ones in the whole of the season against other PL teams that were acceptable-to-good were Liverpool home, Arsenal home, Man City home, Luton for 60 mins away, Spurs for 25 mins of the first half away.

If I were being kind some others have been 'ordinary', a fair number poor and as many as noted above as good - appalling.

Results speak for themselves, agreed - We are 11th and the last 5 results are Loss, Loss, Win, Draw, Draw. 16 points from the relegation zone and 27 points off the league leaders. 

While the runners and riders are getting ready for Cheltenham and Aintree, we're saddling-up for Fontwell & Cartmel.

We are generally agreeing upon many things here., just with different conclusions as to how/why we are here. The only main difference being, you think the coach is a dud and probably have a stronger belief in the players than I do.

I think the coach has an incredibly difficult job and is achieving about par with what he has to work with. I struggle to see obvious forward strides from another manager, without experience and leadership added in player recruitment. The players are talented, but they are novice hurdle talented at Fontwell, still some way off being championship hurdle ready for Cheltenham.

[ROTG]

6 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

We are generally agreeing upon many things here., just with different conclusions as to how/why we are here. The only main difference being, you think the coach is a dud and probably have a stronger belief in the players than I do.

I think the coach has an incredibly difficult job and is achieving about par with what he has to work with. I struggle to see obvious forward strides from another manager, without experience and leadership added in player recruitment. The players are talented, but they are novice hurdle talented at Fontwell, still some way off being championship hurdle ready for Cheltenham.

Agree, the coach is not the only problem.  
 

as I have said a several times, if Poch get 54pts or above this season he has done an outstanding job with the squad given to him by a couple of football scouts. Especially as some on here thought this was a +70pts squad on paper. 

[Mark Kelly]

3 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Especially as some on here thought this was a +70pts squad on paper. 

Can you point to those who thought that then?

I can't recall a single person saying that 

[east lower]

27 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

We are generally agreeing upon many things here., just with different conclusions as to how/why we are here. The only main difference being, you think the coach is a dud and probably have a stronger belief in the players than I do.

I think the coach has an incredibly difficult job and is achieving about par with what he has to work with. I struggle to see obvious forward strides from another manager, without experience and leadership added in player recruitment. The players are talented, but they are novice hurdle talented at Fontwell, still some way off being championship hurdle ready for Cheltenham.

I actually am not that enamoured with quite a few of the squad, and the point I try to make is that any coaches job is to improve what he or others put in front of him. He’s not done that in any, way, shape or form. And wasn’t that one of the primary reasons for him being chosen?

The side has NO identity or ‘style’ and certainly a soft underbelly. The first two being 100% down to the coach.

He can’t even bother himself to get the team to give the opponents a hard-time. He’s not engaging or engaged and now the fans are seeing it for what it is. They/we’d be patient, if we saw any reasonably consistent green-shoots growing. The coach is plodding through to the end of his tenure, I for one hope that the owners put some minimum performance targets in his contract and he walks with nothing more than a cheery wave goodbye.

[Chelsea_Matt]

10 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

Me neither. 'Disappointed', but not 'surprised' in the least.

Amazes me why the wealthy do this. How much do you need? Pay the tax and enjoy your life.

[ROTG]

29 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Can you point to those who thought that then?

I can't recall a single person saying that 

Well one would assume those who predicted a top 4 and maybe those who voted for a top six finish on the poll. 
 

how many point do you think the squad should have achieved this season?   going by your reaction to Poch 54pts is not acceptable 

Edited March 7 by ROTG

[NoblyBobly]

3 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

Can you point to those who thought that then?

I can't recall a single person saying that 

In fact the general consensus was that if we don’t get a decent striker we are fcked. And that has come to pass. 

[NoblyBobly]

So if you believe  anything the papers/media say, both Tuchel and JM are in the mix to return….sooner rather than later. 

[NoblyBobly]

If JM comes back his number 2 will be crucial. What’s Steve Clarke doing these days? 
let’s get the band back together! 😉

[east lower]

32 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

If JM comes back his number 2 will be crucial. What’s Steve Clarke doing these days? 
let’s get the band back together! 😉

Managing the sweaty's isn't he?

Steve Holland, now that would be a coup and for me the 'brains' behind the 2012 triumph. RDM was the hearts & minds man, Holland was the football brains.