Mauricio Pochettino leaves Chelsea by mutual consent

[chara]

40 minutes ago, east lower said:

Managing the sweaty's isn't he?

Steve Holland, now that would be a coup and for me the 'brains' behind the 2012 triumph. RDM was the hearts & minds man, Holland was the football brains.

Just a question...no side to it or agenda...for me Steve Clarke and Steve Holland are unsung heroes of Chelsea..maybe acknowledged by the faithful but outside the Chelsea fan base I think under the radar,,,I don't mean the Pro level game people,,,they know, I mean the oppo match following fans.

So,,,given that,,if Steve H is so good as a back support how come the Southgate brand of football as delivered for the last few years is so sniffed at by the fans?...just asking out of curiosity...genuine question and no sneering at Steve H.

[McCreadie]

1 hour ago, chara said:

Just a question...no side to it or agenda...for me Steve Clarke and Steve Holland are unsung heroes of Chelsea..maybe acknowledged by the faithful but outside the Chelsea fan base I think under the radar,,,I don't mean the Pro level game people,,,they know, I mean the oppo match following fans.

So,,,given that,,if Steve H is so good as a back support how come the Southgate brand of football as delivered for the last few years is so sniffed at by the fans?...just asking out of curiosity...genuine question and no sneering at Steve H.

Well they have got a lot closer than anyone else in the last 34 years, despite not having the "golden generation" to call upon. As an international manager/coach, you are hamstrung (or bailed out) to a great degree by the players available. You can't sell them and buy others. If Harry Maguire is as good as it gets, you are going to be letting in goals against elite players. I dont think it is any more complicated than that.

IMO, as a club, we owe an awful lot to Holland and Clarke and probably one or two others that dont get the credit they deserve.

[east lower]

1 hour ago, chara said:

Just a question...no side to it or agenda...for me Steve Clarke and Steve Holland are unsung heroes of Chelsea..maybe acknowledged by the faithful but outside the Chelsea fan base I think under the radar,,,I don't mean the Pro level game people,,,they know, I mean the oppo match following fans.

So,,,given that,,if Steve H is so good as a back support how come the Southgate brand of football as delivered for the last few years is so sniffed at by the fans?...just asking out of curiosity...genuine question and no sneering at Steve H.

I think the key to success and by that I mean winning things is a heady cocktail of tactics and motivation. So to put that into the terms I referred to in my post - England have the brains to win (Steve Holland), but not the hearts & minds bit (Southgate). He’s as inspiring as a slap round the chops with a kipper. 
 

That’s where the emotional Italian was the perfect foil for the tactician. Robbie got all the players closest relatives to record a message for each of the 2012 CL squad to say how proud they were and how they wanted them to believe in themselves and each other and win the damn thing - Inspiring and unique stuff at that time. And it’s that emotional thing that Southgate will never have - in my opinion.

[chara]

Just wanted to thank @east lower and @McCreadie for taking the time to address my somewhat off topic question.

Always interesting, for me, to read wider football opinions still related to Chelsea.

[boratsbrother]

Imho, looking to go back to what worked 12 + years ago would be a big mistake! 

Football always moves on and sooner or later Pep and Klopps ways of doing things will no longer be in vogue. Happened to  Wenger, Clough, the Liverpool bootroom way. Fergie wouldn't work in 2024 either.

 

Edited March 7 by boratsbrother

[asvaberg]

Hmmmm...............

[chara]

SO...TT would consider a Chelsea return,,I would "consider" a return to a previous marriage,,,,for about a nana second!

🗡️🤢🤮🧙‍♀️🧟‍♀️

[kev61]

On 06/03/2024 at 10:38, east lower said:

 

Plus as @kev61 has posted elsewhere there's hardly a player he has improved. 

I would like to take credit for that but it was Martin 1905 that said that .l😉

[kev61]

On 06/03/2024 at 11:21, Thiago97 said:

Appreciate the total honesty and transparency of your post. Personally, regardless of any subjective opinion on the coach being the right man, there still has to be some slack in there for him , when you take into your view of what he has inherited with the club situation.

I would just add some comments on the parts where quoted above. This whole full coward persona that Mark Kelly has created.  Is it not just a case of he knows what he is working with ? Inexperienced players with questionable mental strengths, lacking physical size and lacking leadership on the pitch . He is being asked to try and produce gold out of what is currently base metal.  Again, I really want to reiterate the point that Poch has clearly got things wrong, just like all managers do. It's about rectifying those issues and learning from those mistakes over time, this will take longer to resolve working with younger players who are all still in the early stages of working together in the club.

The lack on intensity/slow moving of the ball point - Surely you don't think that is Poch's desired tactic here? In many ways, this is just a modern football thing. Majority of managers seem to want to play out from the back these days, their appears to be very few pragmatic managers out there. So if we accept this is highly likely to be the style of play route we are going down, one of the next key things is are the players up to producing it. Currently they are not capable of producing this to the required level, which is why so many mistakes happen, which leads to the ball being moved slower to try and prevent those mistakes, and the whole cycle of pain is continuous. Now I get people could say well Poch is manager he needs to stop them doing this, but I suspect this is all part of the structure/playing style the club are trying to install. If the plan is to develop these players over the next 3-4 years, then abandoning that philosophy 18 months in, has potential to  create even bigger issues moving forward. The players and manager need to show they are capable of implementing this tactic better, but also capable of performing it on the pitch. Question marks over both players and manager here.

Finally, I didn't want this post to be thing long, so apologies there. The bit about the 2-2 games when Poch was at spurs......well we need this kind of fight, nastiness, cynicism here now. The only players who seem to show any of this is Caicedo, Palmer and Gallagher. The overriding point is that Poch has created this previously, when he had the players who were able to deliver it. So the manager has a track record of creating it, the manager has a track record of creating good results across his last 3 clubs too. What do our young players have a track record of ? a world cup with Argentina, some very nice play at Brighton, a few exciting games for Shaktar and PSV, some promising games for Monaco, raw  promise for Villareal, a good season at Crystal Palace. 

 

 

Who is responsible for trying to play out from the back?.It is a disaster waiting to happen.

Do people think it's the players themselves??. .of course not it's an instruction by the coach.

I honestly can't get my head around it.It has absolutely no merit.To  me it's a tactic by a coach that is lost and trys to mimic other coaches with much better squads

[kev61]

On 06/03/2024 at 11:21, Thiago97 said:

Appreciate the total honesty and transparency of your post. Personally, regardless of any subjective opinion on the coach being the right man, there still has to be some slack in there for him , when you take into your view of what he has inherited with the club situation.

I would just add some comments on the parts where quoted above. This whole full coward persona that Mark Kelly has created.  Is it not just a case of he knows what he is working with ? Inexperienced players with questionable mental strengths, lacking physical size and lacking leadership on the pitch . He is being asked to try and produce gold out of what is currently base metal.  Again, I really want to reiterate the point that Poch has clearly got things wrong, just like all managers do. It's about rectifying those issues and learning from those mistakes over time, this will take longer to resolve working with younger players who are all still in the early stages of working together in the club.

The lack on intensity/slow moving of the ball point - Surely you don't think that is Poch's desired tactic here? In many ways, this is just a modern football thing. Majority of managers seem to want to play out from the back these days, their appears to be very few pragmatic managers out there. So if we accept this is highly likely to be the style of play route we are going down, one of the next key things is are the players up to producing it. Currently they are not capable of producing this to the required level, which is why so many mistakes happen, which leads to the ball being moved slower to try and prevent those mistakes, and the whole cycle of pain is continuous. Now I get people could say well Poch is manager he needs to stop them doing this, but I suspect this is all part of the structure/playing style the club are trying to install. If the plan is to develop these players over the next 3-4 years, then abandoning that philosophy 18 months in, has potential to  create even bigger issues moving forward. The players and manager need to show they are capable of implementing this tactic better, but also capable of performing it on the pitch. Question marks over both players and manager here.

Finally, I didn't want this post to be thing long, so apologies there. The bit about the 2-2 games when Poch was at spurs......well we need this kind of fight, nastiness, cynicism here now. The only players who seem to show any of this is Caicedo, Palmer and Gallagher. The overriding point is that Poch has created this previously, when he had the players who were able to deliver it. So the manager has a track record of creating it, the manager has a track record of creating good results across his last 3 clubs too. What do our young players have a track record of ? a world cup with Argentina, some very nice play at Brighton, a few exciting games for Shaktar and PSV, some promising games for Monaco, raw  promise for Villareal, a good season at Crystal Palace. 

 

 

I think you are over analysing things.Forget about the miniusai .simply put, Poch has failed miserably.

Would you give him any more money to  improve the team?...I wouldn't - so how in the heck would the owners think anything different..... Unless they know what they're doing ..God help us.

 

Edited March 8 by kev61

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

Would you give him any more money to  improve the team?

He's never been given any money to spend. Only a couple of lazy scouts and owners Ego's have been spending money on player recruitment.

For all his faults that one thing Poch cannot be blamed for.

If he had been part of then player recruitment, then he would deserve a lot of the sledging he's getting on here.

[east lower]

3 hours ago, kev61 said:

I would like to take credit for that but it was Martin 1905 that said that .l😉

Sorry @martin1905

[Thiago97]

2 hours ago, kev61 said:

Who is responsible for trying to play out from the back?.It is a disaster waiting to happen.

Do people think it's the players themselves??. .of course not it's an instruction by the coach.

I honestly can't get my head around it.It has absolutely no merit.To  me it's a tactic by a coach that is lost and trys to mimic other coaches with much better squads

I think you are missing the point a little Kev. Unless there is a clear strategy change throughout the club, the next manager in is going to play out from the back to a similar level. It may be tinkered with in some areas, but it will likely be very similar, unless they go down a pragmatic manager route.

The playing out from the back is present at many clubs throughout our league. Some just do it much better than others. 
I get why you don’t like it, sometimes it frustrates me. You need to see it for what it is though, it’s that style of play that managed us to get two draws with city this season. As the game has evolved with that style, it actually works better against the better teams who also play in a similar way. 
So yeah the manager is playing it, because that is one key factor behind the scouting and signing of the players we made. It’s part of the identity the club is trying to install with a manager.

We can debate whether it is a good plan or not. However, don’t be thinking this is purely down to Poch demanded this style of play. It’s very much part of the fabric and bigger picture going on within the club. 

[east lower]

47 minutes ago, ROTG said:

He's never been given any money to spend. Only a couple of lazy scouts and owners Ego's have been spending money on player recruitment.

For all his faults that one thing Poch cannot be blamed for.

If he had been part of then player recruitment, then he would deserve a lot of the sledging he's getting on here.

The coach has consistently said that it’s a collective decision on new in’s and out’s since he’s been here. 
 

Crux of that is, is it the truth or do the Mid-Table Achievement Team (to be referred to as The MAT) do their own thing and he as the Coach has to deal with the cards he is dealt?

[east lower]

3 hours ago, kev61 said:

Who is responsible for trying to play out from the back?.It is a disaster waiting to happen.

Do people think it's the players themselves??. .of course not it's an instruction by the coach.

I honestly can't get my head around it.It has absolutely no merit.To  me it's a tactic by a coach that is lost and trys to mimic other coaches with much better squads

It’s insanity when the players like Disasi (and he has his strengths) and Sanchez - 1-0 to Leeds is the most recent example.

But numb-nuts keeps on doing it and even if we get the ball into midfield its surrendered or ends up passed backwards for the centre-halves to pass it between themselves for a while.  You assess what players are actually good at and have to mould tactics around those traits, not play to their weaknesses.
 

@Thiago97 has quoted the two draws with Man City as a relative success and I have said elsewhere that our better performances have been against City home and away, Liverpool, Arsenal at home and Spuds away for 25 mins. What’s the common denominator? They all play with their defenses up near the halfway line. The latest of those games we couldn’t pass the ball from keeper to defender too much as they position 4 and 2 in the last third of the pitch.  Get the ball forward earlier, but that’s not what the coach seems to want to do, even against 9 at Spuds we spent most of the second half fannying around with it in midfield with their defence in the halfway line. Soon as we realised there’s all that space behind them we then looked like getting the second, but it took the genius 30 odd minutes to figure that one out.

[Thiago97]

1 minute ago, east lower said:

It’s insanity when the players like Disasi (and he has his strengths) and Sanchez - 1-0 to Leeds is the most recent example.

But numb-nuts keeps on doing it and even if we get the ball into midfield its surrendered or ends up passed backwards for the centre-halves to pass it between themselves for a while.  You assess what players are actually good at and have to mould tactics around those traits, not play to their weaknesses.
 

@Thiago97 has quoted the two draws with Man City as a relative success and I have said elsewhere that our better performances have been against City home and away, Liverpool, Arsenal at home and Spuds away for 25 mins. What’s the common denominator? They all play with their defenses up near the halfway line. The latest of those games we couldn’t pass the ball from keeper to defender too much as they position 4 and 2 in the last third of the pitch.  Get the ball forward earlier, but that’s not what the coach seems to want to do, even against 9 at Spuds we spent most of the second half fannying around with it in midfield with their defence in the halfway line. Soon as we realised there’s all that space behind them we then looked like getting the second, but it took the genius 30 odd minutes to figure that one out.

The players have not been capable of playing the ball quicker. You cannot seriously think this style of play is down to Poch, and then he wants them to do it without pace ? Really ?

What club have we mirrored the most under this ownership ? Brighton.

So are you/kev thinking it’s purely coincedental that we took their manager and backroom infrastructure? We then spent £70m on two ball playing CB’s in Disasi and Badiashille. We then spent £200m on a technical ball playing midfielder, alongside another Cm who was often used as the first receiver from playing out from the back Brighton ( I’m talking Caicedo). We also took their Gk who played out from the back predominantly under Potter regime. 

Do you genuinely think all this has happened, then Poch comes in and has demanded we only play out from the back and this is purely his tactic ?

Open your eyes fellas. Stop confusing what  you to happen and who you want to blame, with what is happening . 

[east lower]

38 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

The players have not been capable of playing the ball quicker. You cannot seriously think this style of play is down to Poch, and then he wants them to do it without pace ? Really ?

What club have we mirrored the most under this ownership ? Brighton.

So are you/kev thinking it’s purely coincedental that we took their manager and backroom infrastructure? We then spent £70m on two ball playing CB’s in Disasi and Badiashille. We then spent £200m on a technical ball playing midfielder, alongside another Cm who was often used as the first receiver from playing out from the back Brighton ( I’m talking Caicedo). We also took their Gk who played out from the back predominantly under Potter regime. 

Do you genuinely think all this has happened, then Poch comes in and has demanded we only play out from the back and this is purely his tactic ?

Open your eyes fellas. Stop confusing what  you to happen and who you want to blame, with what is happening . 

It’s 100% down to the coach. Who’ll get the sack first when the inevitable happens? Probably won’t be the MAT team. 
 

He sets the tactics, he picks the team - If he doesn’t then he’s even more of a coward than I think he is already.

Disasi = Ball playing centre-half 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. If they thought that, god help us. Other qualities, yes and Badiashile looks like a nervous kitten when he’s been on the pitch (which isn’t very much) recently, confidence destroyed by the tactics employed and lack of adaptability that the coach unfortunately displays far too regularly. 

I did think for a while that the latter could be a really good acquisition but the coach is ruining him.

Sanchez  and playing out from the back! Words that should never be spoken or thought about. 

Any self-respecting coach sets the tone, no wonder Tuchel told them to get-stuffed and if he is under ‘orders’ and with our performance thus far this season, league position etc, so should the current fella. 

But he’s taking the money and waiting, whilst damaging what we do have - deplorable from him. The other rats will probably survive until eventually they get found out or get another offer. Smells very like the Grant period, lots of chancers exploiting a weakness for personal gain. Roman leant his lesson then, will the Americans??

So, let's take Brighton as the example, last season and the one before lauded as playing attractive, cohesive football - generally praised.  Your argument,  unless I'm mistaken is we've taken the Brighton way, taken their players snd the tone for the way they play is set by the ex-Brighton performance management team/Director's of Football. A blind man can see we are nowhere near that fluid style, so what's the difference? The damn coach is 

My eyes are wide open, can the people who are still saying the coach isn't to blame say the same?

Edited March 8 by east lower

[Thiago97]

14 minutes ago, east lower said:

It’s 100% down to the coach. Who’ll get the sack first when the inevitable happens? Probably won’t be the MAT team. 
 

He sets the tactics, he picks the team - If he doesn’t then he’s even more of a coward than I think he is already.

Disasi = Ball playing centre-half 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. If they thought that, god help us. Other qualities, yes and Badiashile looks like a nervous kitten when he’s been on the pitch (which isn’t very much) recently, confidence destroyed by the tactics employed and lack of adaptability that the coach unfortunately displays far too regularly. 

I did think for a while that the latter could be a really good acquisition but the coach is ruining him.

Sanchez  and playing out from the back! Words that should never be spoken or thought about. 

Any self-respecting coach sets the tone, no wonder Tuchel told them to get-stuffed and if he is under ‘orders’ and with our performance thus far this season, league position etc, so should the current fella. 
 

But he’s taking the money and waiting, whilst damaging what we do have - deplorable from him. The other rats will probably survive until eventually they get found out or get another offer. Smells very like the Grant period, lots of chancers exploiting a weakness for personal gain. Roman leant his lesson then, will the Americans??

Well these are the metrics that have been used to acquire these players. It’s not me calling Disasi or Badiashille ball playing centre half . I had not seen either of them play before he came here, but their reputation and data metrics used to acquire these players, was very much based around them being ball playing CB’s. Sanchez is very much seen as a ball playing GK, it’s probably his over confidence in this area that leads to problems.

I think one of the major issues here is you and Kev are both a bit old skool. Nothing wrong with that at all, I wish football would go back to the old skool. However, we are where we are now. The days of modern managers coming into major big clubs and having their own set of tactics to produce winning football are close to being gone really. Why do you think Jose has had failure in recent years . It’s now all about long term identities that run through the whole club, playing in an attractive possession based way with data being a key resource to support this. That’s what Klopp and Guardiola have done brilliantly in their own styles going back 7-8 seasons now. Top coaches who have changed the whole culture of the club and identified and improved quality players to make it happen.  
It’s not a case of me being buying into and liking this approach , it’s just a case of me understanding and having to accept this is what is happening at Chelsea now. Arsenal would be another example. These clubs are anything between 3-8 seasons ahead of Chelsea with this whole infrastructure. Tougher decisions and better decisions were made by this clubs to get them to where they are now. 

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

The coach has consistently said that it’s a collective decision on new in’s and out’s since he’s been here. 

If that is the truth, then the bloke is a complete plonker, no credible coach on this planet, that knew the standards of Chelsea would agree on player recruitment only coming from the clubs scouts ex-mid table clubs, or on there ex-mid table clubs shopping list.

Maybe that is one of the reasons the likes of Enrique and Nagelmann declined the project chelsea offer.

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

What club have we mirrored the most under this ownership ? Brighton.

So are you/kev thinking it’s purely coincedental that we took their manager and backroom infrastructure? We then spent £70m on two ball playing CB’s in Disasi and Badiashille. We then spent £200m on a technical ball playing midfielder, alongside another Cm who was often used as the first receiver from playing out from the back Brighton ( I’m talking Caicedo). We also took their Gk who played out from the back predominantly under Potter regime. 

 

Disasi & Badiashille, Laurence Stewart's lazy recruitment from his ex-club Monaco 

[Chelsea_Matt]

9 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Disasi & Badiashille, Laurence Stewart's lazy recruitment from his ex-club Monaco 

How much was Disasi? I think he’s decent but that’s about it. 

[Siidi]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

It’s 100% down to the coach. Who’ll get the sack first when the inevitable happens? Probably won’t be the MAT team. 
 

He sets the tactics, he picks the team - If he doesn’t then he’s even more of a coward than I think he is already.

Disasi = Ball playing centre-half 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. If they thought that, god help us. Other qualities, yes and Badiashile looks like a nervous kitten when he’s been on the pitch (which isn’t very much) recently, confidence destroyed by the tactics employed and lack of adaptability that the coach unfortunately displays far too regularly. 

I did think for a while that the latter could be a really good acquisition but the coach is ruining him.

Sanchez  and playing out from the back! Words that should never be spoken or thought about. 

Any self-respecting coach sets the tone, no wonder Tuchel told them to get-stuffed and if he is under ‘orders’ and with our performance thus far this season, league position etc, so should the current fella. 

But he’s taking the money and waiting, whilst damaging what we do have - deplorable from him. The other rats will probably survive until eventually they get found out or get another offer. Smells very like the Grant period, lots of chancers exploiting a weakness for personal gain. Roman leant his lesson then, will the Americans??

So, let's take Brighton as the example, last season and the one before lauded as playing attractive, cohesive football - generally praised.  Your argument,  unless I'm mistaken is we've taken the Brighton way, taken their players snd the tone for the way they play is set by the ex-Brighton performance management team/Director's of Football. A blind man can see we are nowhere near that fluid style, so what's the difference? The damn coach is 

My eyes are wide open, can the people who are still saying the coach isn't to blame say the same?

Whether or not Disasi is ball playing, you can't judge from a team that is so static and dull upfront. You can't play ball with yourself. After all, the difference between a completed and a stray pass is often the receiver. I picked out Disasi from the lot because he's one player that I believe is close to having all the skills of a modern defender if playing under a good coach. 

[Mark Kelly]

26 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

How much was Disasi? I think he’s decent but that’s about it. 

45m Euros

[Bison]

Think we've found our man, add him to the shortlist:

 

[Mark Kelly]

1 hour ago, Bison said:

Think we've found our man, add him to the shortlist:

 

We have quite enough injuries as it is , but I like the cut of his jib.