Chelsea 0 Nottingham Forest 1

[Ham]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

Sure, if you're dense enough to take the £1bn spent at face value, a commonly had theme the media really love to be pushing at present. In a more contextualised reality we know that not all that value has been put into immediate proven quality or needs, a lot of it since January of last season has been invested towards the future. Whether it pays off, be it from a business or football perspective, we'll only find out down the line. 

 

Plus, why are we using the media's "£1b" figure when that includes maximum possible add ons which are clearly not going to be achieved.  We're not winning the CL or PL anytime soon.

 

 

[ROTG]

51 minutes ago, Ham said:

We're not winning the CL or PL anytime soon.

 

 

Then TB might as well used the £1b for something else. 

[Sleeping Dave]

18 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

We spent 151 million Euros on Disasi, Palmer, Ugochukwu, Petrovic, and Washington this summer.

We could have put all that money into one statement, marquee forward signing like Oshimen.

And still ended up with Caicedo, Lavia, Jackson, Sanchez, and Angelo coming in.

Does anyone not think that would have been a better strategy? As much as I like Palmer.

What is the point in buying youth if you get sanctioned for failing to bring in enough revenue?

You are of course completely correct in your observation. We have bought more young players than we can realistically develop and nurture at the club. Spending £100m+ on Osimhen or another proven goalscorer would have been a much better strategy imo. Perhaps also a top class goalkeeper instead of Brightons number 3 who aren’t any better than Kepa. 

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

Anyway rant over! Just get a grip some of you…..even if you did call it correct and early. Well done ! 

Another aspect of the phenomena you describe is across the board negativity and then later self-congratulations for having been right about a specific player/coach/tactic being sh*t. Usually ignoring that nothing else pissed and moaned about turned out to be that bad. 

I don't think we needed the rip-it-up-and-start-again approach the owners went for, but we're far too deep into it for anything but seeing it through to be an option. 

[Mark Kelly]

The good thing is we're only 8 points off top place which is the closest we've been for a considerable time . RESULT ! 

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Sure, if you're dense enough to take the £1bn spent at face value, a commonly had theme the media really love to be pushing at present. In a more contextualised reality we know that not all that value has been put into immediate proven quality or needs, a lot of it since January of last season has been invested towards the future. Whether it pays off, be it from a business or football perspective, we'll only find out down the line. 

The big issue is there's a clear disconnect between our historic reputation as a club, where we are in the present day, and the approach taken with large sums of money invested into a talent based route that'll take some time to reap the benefits from. There's a portion that understand the situation, there's others that simply cannot wrap their heads around it for one reason or another. 

Another lady Gaga response. 
 

if you continually beat a puppy it will cower for the rest of its life. 

Enzo is a perfect example, won 4 of the 22 games played in the PL and been on the losing side 11 times. Do you really think this kid is going to evolve knowing there is a good chance he is part of a losing team. Sooner or later it another case of a players head going down and going through the motions. A bit like many of the seniors players did last season when the management gave them a nobody coaching team to coach them.

Let’s revisit at the halfway mark to see if the beating of the puppy has stopped. Or a count of have how many of the new kids on the block heads have dropped.

let’s move on because the bloody obvious is blasphemous in your eyes. 😀👍

[Backbiter]

2 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The good thing is we're only 8 points off top place which is the closest we've been for a considerable time . RESULT ! 

And it's only two points if we beat City home and away.

[Sleeping Dave]

8 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I also said that we had more attacking players on the pitch in the second half and it made no difference. The point is that more attacking players doesn't automatically equate to more clinical end product in the final third.

 

Which is really our main problem - the atttacking players we have aren’t clinical goal scorers. That’s a recruitment problem. Our recruitment since these Americans have taken over has been an absolute shambles. We’ve managed to get rid of a lot of overrated and overpaid players only to replace them with equally limited players in higher numbers and lower individual cost. 

We have solved nothing. An awful lot of work for not improving us at all. 👏

[Holymoly]

8 hours ago, kev61 said:

I will give Poch until Christmas to wise up.If he doesn't then sack him and move on.

Frank had better freshen up his football aphorisms then.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Which is really our main problem - the atttacking players we have aren’t clinical goal scorers. That’s a recruitment problem. Our recruitment since these Americans have taken over has been an absolute shambles. We’ve managed to get rid of a lot of overrated and overpaid players only to replace them with equally limited players in higher numbers and lower individual cost. 

We have solved nothing. An awful lot of work for not improving us at all. 👏

That's part of the unknown when it comes to investing in youth - they're developing. Jackson for example could end up a 20 goal a season striker, but he's not there yet in his development. That's the case with a lot of the young attackers we've added, they aren't the finished product at this point in time. 

We've also purchased our fair share of "clinical" proven attackers in the past and they've been tripe that couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo, so it works both ways. 

[Holymoly]

2 hours ago, Ham said:

Plus, why are we using the media's "£1b" figure when that includes maximum possible add ons which are clearly not going to be achieved.  We're not winning the CL or PL anytime soon.

 

 

It also fails to take account that we sold an entire squad for a not inconsiderable sum of money. I particularly appreciate the sales of Havertz and Mount both of whom are detracting from their new clubs nicely.

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, Ham said:

Plus, why are we using the media's "£1b" figure when that includes maximum possible add ons which are clearly not going to be achieved.  We're not winning the CL or PL anytime soon.

Shock factor, people lap it up and it gets clicks - that's why. 

Much easier to shit on the establishment if you over-exaggerate the facts (or make things up altogether in some cases).

[boratsbrother]

9 hours ago, kev61 said:

This is the most disappointing thing for me.Most people(me included)thought he would be the answer to our problems.

Pains me to say it but he has already looked clueless.I hope it is me that is clueless(very possible)but when you see someone get basic things wrong your heart sinks.

Thing which bothered me when he was seriously considered for the job was the fact that his best years as a manager were already half a dozen years ago. By the time he left Spurs the majority of their fans wanted him out as the football was as dreadful as their results. He was a good manager for a few years at a certain level but never a top tier one. 

As painful as it was I wanted us to stick with Potter for a couple of more years. Let him manage with a significantly smaller squad and have the time to implement his system, a system which is now so ingrained at Brighton that they can are able to lose top players and carry on just as well without them. He needed time, but as always we never gave it and it wouldn't surprise me at all if we're back on the manager merry-go-round again by Xmas.  

 

[Floyd25]

4 hours ago, xceleryx said:

the approach taken with large sums of money invested into a talent based route that'll take some time to reap the benefits from. There's a portion that understand the situation, there's others that simply cannot wrap their heads around it for one reason or another. 

Who doesn’t understand the situation? The route that these owners have taken is easy to figure out, but there’s absolutely no guarantee of it working and no guarantee that these players develop in to the world beaters that we’re all hoping they do. These young players also need the right environment to thrive and other players around them to pick them up when times are tough, which they don’t really have. 
 

Maybe this all works out and a lot people will be eating their words, what’s the big plan if it doesn’t? 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Floyd25

[xceleryx]

19 minutes ago, Floyd25 said:

Who doesn’t understand the situation? The route that these owners have taken is easy to figure out, but there’s absolutely no guarantee of it working and no guarantee that these players develop in to the world beaters that we’re all hoping they do. These young players also need the right environment to thrive and other players around them to pick them up when times are tough, which they don’t really have. 
 

Maybe this all works out and a lot people will be eating their words, what’s the big plan if it doesn’t? 

Buying established players for greater cost isn't a guarantee either, both approaches have sizeable risks attached. 

We also don't need every young talent to be a star, that's not the point of the approach either. By investing heavily in youth it does increase our odds of hitting on a couple that will ultimately be considered good enough to where we're not needing to spend the sums we're seeing as reguarly. Those that aren't to that level can be sold, and because we've largely purchased at a fairly low price point with low wages it's easier to recover costs, if not actually come out on top. 

It's arguably a far easier hole to dig ourselves out of than being stuck with a bunch of high cost established players on big wages, as they're ultimately far harder to sell - as we've seen with various players we've had to continuously loan out. 

I'd much rather see us put our money into the young talent we have then dregs like Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Zappacosta, Ziyech, and the list goes on.

[Gurj SS]

4 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

It’s 4 games! What basic things is he getting wrong ? The only answer you have for this really is play Chilwell at lb, because that fits your understanding of how football teams set up. 
We don’t actually know if this so right or wrong though. We could have started Chilwell at LB in a conventional back four and maybe only have 3 pts. So we don’t actually know he is getting any ‘ basic things wrong’

Makes a huge difference, especially when Chilly is partnered with a CB playing at LB.

So we all know why most ball playing CBs struggle to play as DMs, they have certain skills for it but aren't used to playing with their backs to the opposition's goal or having the ball with players coming from behind them, they also can see all the pitch in front of them at CB but struggle when they're getting the ball on the half turn under pressure while looking for a pass as a DM

Very similar for Chilly, as a LM if he comes onto the ball as he's running he's able to make progress down the left and cross or cut the ball back, or as a LB he's also able to bring the ball forward with the whole pitch ahead of him, but if the ball comes into his feet when he's not running he doesn't have the skills someone like Sterling, Madueke or Mudryk would have to push an opposition player backwards; so they press him and his natural game is to turn back and pass to the player next to him or behind him. This kills the move and we recycle the ball. Colwill doesn't provide an overlap because his reading of the game as a LB isn't there, so Chilly is double stuck.

This is nothing against Chilly, Colwill, or any other player, it's just pointing out that players play in certain positions for a reason, sure they can 'do a job'; put it this way, in a car repair garage certain mechanics are better at particular jobs and it makes sense to give them those jobs.

Gary Neville spoke of this when discussing if he could have played as a RCB or RWB, and he said the roles are actually quite different to being a RB; Chilly is a very good player but he's no Marcelo on the ball and no Alonso off the ball, so he is being played away from his strengths which are to provide an overlap, bring the ball out from defence with pace, come onto a ball while running and get the ball into the box with a good cross.

Ask yourself this, in a 1v1 situation who has the least chance of beating their man: Chilly, Sterling, Madueke or Mudryk? Now ask yourself this: reading when to overlap the LM in front of them, who has the best chance of reading when to go and when not to: Chilly, Maatsen, Cucu or Colwill?

The basics are to pick a system, clearly by Silva's own words on social media it's a back 4, so the basics are to pick players in their correct positions and then build onto that unless you have no players in a particular position; but we do have, yes we have injurues but we have enough players fit to play a starting XI in their correct positions (if anyone isn't playing because someone across the other side of the pitch is injured then they shouldn't be at the club, and Poch accepted the 'project' knowing this is what the club wanted to do). Yes we don't know if we'd still have the same points or not but then that would mean never questioning or discussing anything to do with the club; because you don't know if we wouldn't be 3rd in the league.

[Ham]

3 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Which is really our main problem - the atttacking players we have aren’t clinical goal scorers. That’s a recruitment problem. Our recruitment since these Americans have taken over has been an absolute shambles. We’ve managed to get rid of a lot of overrated and overpaid players only to replace them with equally limited players in higher numbers and lower individual cost. 

We have solved nothing. An awful lot of work for not improving us at all. 👏

In pre season with Nkunku on the pitch, everything clicked better.  Both him and Jackson were scoring for fun and the pressure to change a game was taken off Mudryk which meant he played with more freedom and confidence.

You shouldn't underestimate the impact of one missing link. I think we bought smart but injuries AGAIN have screwed us. 

[Lump Of Celery]

23 hours ago, Original 21 said:

It must be that we’ve got a belief that Toney is coming in January

He is 27 years old so unlikely to be signing him if reports of refusing to sign over 25s is true

[Mark Kelly]

4 minutes ago, Lump Of Celery said:

He is 27 years old so unlikely to be signing him if reports of refusing to sign over 25s is true

Every cloud...

[Max Fowler]

22 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Buying established players for greater cost isn't a guarantee either, both approaches have sizeable risks attached. 

We also don't need every young talent to be a star, that's not the point of the approach either. By investing heavily in youth it does increase our odds of hitting on a couple that will ultimately be considered good enough to where we're not needing to spend the sums we're seeing as reguarly. Those that aren't to that level can be sold, and because we've largely purchased at a fairly low price point with low wages it's easier to recover costs, if not actually come out on top. 

It's arguably a far easier hole to dig ourselves out of than being stuck with a bunch of high cost established players on big wages, as they're ultimately far harder to sell - as we've seen with various players we've had to continuously loan out. 

I'd much rather see us put our money into the young talent we have then dregs like Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Zappacosta, Ziyech, and the list goes on.

You've shone light on the youth policy and noone disagrees with investing in young players. In fact, under the right circumstances the new Clearlake strategy could pay off big time long-term.

The problem is - we are not creating the right circumstances for anyone at the club, let alone the young players to thrive. How are they going to develop confidence if we have a repeat of last season?

Where would we have been so far this season without the experience of Sterling? One of those "high cost established players" you seem so allergic to. Perhaps you should be the one to Drinkwater!

Don't like Oshimen? Maddison? Fine. There must be one or two experienced players out there who you like. Kane? Oh, that's right, we have an arbitrary policy of not buying players over 25 this summer.

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

You've shone light on the youth policy and noone disagrees with investing in young players. In fact, under the right circumstances the new Clearlake strategy could pay off big time long-term.

The problem is - we are not creating the right circumstances for anyone at the club, let alone the young players to thrive. How are they going to develop confidence if we have a repeat of last season?

Where would we have been so far this season without the experience of Sterling? One of those "high cost established players" you seem so allergic to. Perhaps you should be the one to Drinkwater!

Don't like Oshimen? Maddison? Fine. There must be one or two experienced players out there who you like. Kane? Oh, that's right, we have an arbitrary policy of not buying players over 25 this summer.

I don't believe that XceleryX is in charge of our purchasing policy , I may be wrong though. 

[Max Fowler]

26 minutes ago, Ham said:

In pre season with Nkunku on the pitch, everything clicked better.  Both him and Jackson were scoring for fun and the pressure to change a game was taken off Mudryk which meant he played with more freedom and confidence.

You shouldn't underestimate the impact of one missing link. I think we bought smart but injuries AGAIN have screwed us. 

I agree but when you have the youngest squad in the league and Nkunku hasn't exactly been injury free in his career, it's starting to look like a big oversight. 

[Gurj SS]

48 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Bakayoko, Drinkwater, Zappacosta, Ziyech, and the list goes on.

 But these guys didn't play much, they very quickly fell down the pecking order and a lack of game time made things even worse, not saying they'd have come good but without game time they were never going to.

Lavia and Ugochukwu are both 19 years old, if we don't start winning and winning well then they can't be picked for any game time over Caicedo, Gallagher and Enzo; so what we have is not the case of a Bakayoko and Drinkwater situation, but rather we run a huge risk of making them turn into them.

[Max Fowler]

It comes down to this.

If we have a terrible season this season we're completely screwed.

It simply cannot be allowed to happen after last season.

We have crumbled in some of our easier fixtures - games we should have won.

If we continue to look immature, this for me is on the owners more than Poch.

We should have learned from last season that in football you need results.

[Mark Kelly]

As much as we are all stunned by the weekends loss I think we have to grin and bear it for the time being , Poch needs to assess what has gone awry and rectify it.  We do appear to be able to see it and hopefully he will agree but I don't think he will. 

We have as a side played four games together in the most unforgiving league in the World , there are literally unlike many other countries leagues no easy games, so , with our sensible heads on we need to ignore the interminable mentions of "billion pound squads" and "buying the league" and "Boehly is an idiot" from the press and moronically vocal supporters of our opposition who would struggle to tell the difference between shit and clay and get on with it.

As annoying as it may be. 

And anyway , we'd rip it up in the Championship