Burnley 1 Chelsea 4

[Sleeping Dave]

On 07/10/2023 at 18:18, martin1905 said:

Amazing what playing more than two attacking players and most players in their best position can do.

I bet Pochettino is kicking himself for some of his early team selections. Should be at least six points better off which would have us third. Hopefully he has learnt and we will kick on from here. Time to look forwards not backwards. More baby steps but definitely going in the right direction.

Really want to see Sterling, Palmer and Mudryk together, means dropping one of Gallagher or Enzo as Caicedo is already untouchable. Been quietly brilliant during the last few games. 

Sorry but this is way off imo. 

Colwill still at LB, Cucurella at RB and Enzo further forward than Gallagher and Caicedo. 

I don’t see what point you are trying to make here? Apart from having used Chilwell at LW there is literally no other change mate. 

[boratsbrother]

6 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Here's the thing. Enzo's "down performances" are still of a pretty high overall level per the standard he's set. Someone like Gallagher, who I've also thoroughly defended in the past, has had a lower standard to live up towards. So when he does out perform that level it's seen as a more impressive feat. That's not taking away from Gallagher, I think he's been very good so far this season and deserves his place, but both players have a different set of expectations upon them. 

Other players over the years have suffered similar because of this - Mikel, Willian, Kovacic, Raul Meireles, etc. 

Again, Enzo is a player you either get and appreciate or you don't. He does a lot of important things that aren't recorded in the stats and that we'd miss if he wasn't in the team. A bit like after we sold Jorginho last January, then completely missed that calm and composed presence in the middle that could absorb pressure, provide an outlet for his teammates, collect the ball from the defence, and so on. 

The problem is you and others have been seriously overrating Enzo!

He might be a decent player who does a lot of work that doesn't catch the eye, but never in a million years is he close to being the elite level player his supporters claim him to be. Elite players stand out in any team week after week to a point where nobody questions there contribution to the team. You are correct though in bracketing him in with the likes of Kova and Mikel, which is a more realistic asssessment of his abilities.

[boratsbrother]

A word about Sanchez.

He has made a number of good  and important saves in recent weeks, but Saturdays goal was yet another soft one he's let in. So slow to  react  that he never even dived for it.🙁

We will have to make do with him for this season but he's clearly not good enough to be a long-term number one. Would be a good number 2 to keep though!

 

 

[ROTG]

40 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Would be a good number 2 to keep though!

Or number 3 if he stayed at Brighton 😀

[Dwmh]

6 hours ago, kev61 said:

You never fail to disappoint.Who in the history of CFC was more of an all rounder than Kante?.

Pretty much everyone.  Unique, wonderful, but basically was a poor passer, moderate ball control, moderate  awareness of where his colleagues were and probably the only player i can recall whose shooting was worse than Makelele.

Monster player with a perfect understanding of what the opponents were doing.

Try again -is Kante an all rounder?

[paulw66]

1 hour ago, boratsbrother said:

A word about Sanchez.

He has made a number of good  and important saves in recent weeks, but Saturdays goal was yet another soft one he's let in. So slow to  react  that he never even dived for it.🙁

We will have to make do with him for this season but he's clearly not good enough to be a long-term number one. Would be a good number 2 to keep though!

 

 

Yes, in some ways he has been good. He is tall, big reach, and has been good on crosses. I always feel there is a rick up his sleeve though.

If Saturday's result hadn't been turned around, there would have been a heap more focus on the goal they scored. 

[Holymoly]

On 07/10/2023 at 18:28, martin1905 said:

Was 100% a penalty and doesn't matter if it was in the middle of the box or on the line 

Actually my initial reaction was that he had overrun it and that the ball was going behind for a goal kick even if he wasn't fouled. I suppose it was lucky the tackle came in when it did.

[east lower]

I'll not get carried away by this result and still have my reservations about the manager and as @Dwmh pointed out,  is Pochettino a 80+ point a season manager or has he ever been one?

A point that I have to remind myself of when judging both the manager and the team is firstly they've been together for three and bit months and also their age. People get their views adjusted by the size of the transfer-fee paid and these are professionally speaking, very young men.

What helped to bring this home to me was comments made about Nicolas Jackson, slightly negative comments  about his play generally etc. He's the same age as Broja and we talk about the 'promise and potential' of the latter (well not so much me, as I don't think he's up to being our main striker - but just like my views on the manager I'll be happy to be wrong).

What's the differentiation? Perhaps it's the transfer fee paid and it's almost natural to think that when a club is paying in the ten's of millions for a player, you're 'entitled' to believe you've got the 'real-deal, ready to bust the PL apart' player. When in reality what we have paid for is what the player already is, what ceiling/potential someone believe them to have and also what the market forces dictate the ultimate transfer fee to be.

Enzo, Caicedo, Mudryck, Jackson, Lavia - All to be properly judged when they begin to mature - Whatever we see of them now, will probably be improved upon in the future and hopefully with us.  

[Sciatika]

I would say their goal was good play by them and another error in defence by us, but it was not all down to Sanchez. My impression at the time was that the defending (like much of the play) was lacklustre, with no energy, and we gave them too much time. Colwill was still getting back when they scored. The ball was played between Cucu's(?) legs, and so Sanchez saw it late. All the same, I think he should have been able to get down to save it.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Sciatika

[Mark Kelly]

10 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

I would say their goal was good play by them and another error in defence by us, but it was not all down to Sanchez. My impression at the time was that the defending (like much of the play) was lacklustre, with no energy, and we gave them too much time. Colwill was still getting back when they scored. The ball was played between Cucu's(?) legs, and so Sanchez saw it late. All the same, I think he should have been able to get down to save it.

From memory Colwill was ambling back like he was off to buy a paper from the corner shop. 

And, not for the first time. 

[east lower]

6 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

From memory Colwill was ambling back like he was off to buy a paper from the corner shop. 

And, not for the first time. 

There was another occasion in the first-half when we were still 1-0 down when their right-sided midfielder (Tresor??) snuck in behind him at the back post, without Colwill being aware of what's over his shoulder. His general play was good though.

As Ron Atkinson used to say "he needs to get in the wide-awake club" 

[Mark Kelly]

11 minutes ago, east lower said:

There was another occasion in the first-half when we were still 1-0 down when their right-sided midfielder (Tresor??) snuck in behind him at the back post, without Colwill being aware of what's over his shoulder. His general play was good though.

As Ron Atkinson used to say "he needs to get in the wide-awake club" 

Generally I think he's been very good but he does have a tendency to nod off .

[Floyd25]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

As Ron Atkinson used to say "he needs to get in the wide-awake club" 

Amongst other things about Desailly. 

[east lower]

28 minutes ago, Floyd25 said:

Amongst other things about Desailly. 

Big Ron wasn't Marcel's biggest fan,  there were some other comments he made about his 'bravery' I recall.

He had a bit of a point, I remember in a Newcastle match with Alan Shearer doing his stuff, Marcel kept handing Shearer over to a very young John Terry to deal with.

[Dwmh]

2 hours ago, Holymoly said:

Actually my initial reaction was that he had overrun it and that the ball was going behind for a goal kick even if he wasn't fouled. I suppose it was lucky the tackle came in when it did.

2 hours ago, Sciatika said:

I would say their goal was good play by them and another error in defence by us, but it was not all down to Sanchez. My impression at the time was that the defending (like much of the play) was lacklustre, with no energy, and we gave them too much time. Colwill was still getting back when they scored. The ball was played between Cucu's(?) legs, and so Sanchez saw it late. All the same, I think he should have been able to get down to save it.

2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

From memory Colwill was ambling back like he was off to buy a paper from the corner shop. 

And, not for the first time. 

Watching the goal again I'd say the fault was 30% Silva, 20% Disasi. 25% Cucurella and 25% Sanchez.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfnTf7wY-0

Colwill was playing forward, and the days of WBs expected to cover an oppo winger who has not followed him forward are long gone - that was Silva's job who was ball hunting again.  Cucurella should have been closer and more prepared for the LW scorer.  And Caicedo's unavailability to help out a 3 man defence against a 3 man attack might be noted too (he got close but not close enough).

The flip side to that is that they scored early with one of their vertical passes to the front three and then repeated the trick non-stop but 99% of the other such passes were  intercepted by Chelsea, Caicedo most of all.

 

 

[boratsbrother]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

Watching the goal again I'd say the fault was 30% Silva, 20% Disasi. 25% Cucurella and 25% Sanchez.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfnTf7wY-0

 

 

 

As with Strikers a Keepers position is very black and white! Does a Striker put away a chance that he should score from and does a Keeper stop a shot or header  he should save.

The goal on Saturday was a similar angle to the one Sanchez let in against Forest. If the Keeper is beaten at that angle by a Salah level player who can put extreme bend on the ball at sharp angles, then you hold your hand up and say the Striker was just too good. Neither the Forest or Burnley goals were hit with bend on them. We need a level of Keeper who can stop these soft goals going in, otherwise we'll never compete with the top teams.

 

[Dwmh]

17 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

As with Strikers a Keepers position is very black and white! Does a Striker put away a chance that he should score from and does a Keeper stop a shot or header  he should save.

The goal on Saturday was a similar angle to the one Sanchez let in against Forest. If the Keeper is beaten at that angle by a Salah level player who can put extreme bend on the ball at sharp angles, then you hold your hand up and say the Striker was just too good. Neither the Forest or Burnley goals were hit with bend on them. We need a level of Keeper who can stop these soft goals going in, otherwise we'll never compete with the top teams.

 

78.6 Save ratio looks pretty good to me.

 

What we do need is the fire power to overwhelm the oppo on hte odd occasion we do let a soft one in.
04/05, 15 goals Against but when we conceded the team just lit up and charged.  Nothing better than watching the 2004-2010 teams a goal down.

[ROTG]

32 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

78.6 Save ratio looks pretty good to me.

 

What we do need is the fire power to overwhelm the oppo on hte odd occasion we do let a soft one in.
04/05, 15 goals Against but when we conceded the team just lit up and charged.  Nothing better than watching the 2004-2010 teams a goal down.

Also the 09/10 double team going forward.

[chara]

Sanchez..I said at the time... Cucu gave the Burnley player so much room and then Sanchez "simply" got his angle wrong.

No mystery...well taken goal, stoppable, but the margins and angles are so tight.

Without studying it to hell and back Sanchez had to cover inside to his near post as well as getting a cross shot angle right..all in split seconds....again without rewatching I doubt the angle was more than a handsbreath out..enough as always.

Two technically bad crosses into the box by Raheem gave Chelsea two goals..margins as ever...the same headless drive into the box gave us a penalty..margins... that is why we watch the game..random chance mixed with sublime skills.

Not knocking Raheem...he put the effort in and got the rewards for once...margins.

[Dwmh]

15 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Also the 09/10 double team going forward.

Yeah - anything 2004-10.
But the 2010 team did that when they were already 3 up!!
JM's team talked softly, but carried a big stick.
CA's team carried a sledgehammer.

[Max Fowler]

41 minutes ago, chara said:

Sanchez..I said at the time... Cucu gave the Burnley player so much room and then Sanchez "simply" got his angle wrong.

No mystery...well taken goal, stoppable, but the margins and angles are so tight.

Without studying it to hell and back Sanchez had to cover inside to his near post as well as getting a cross shot angle right..all in split seconds....again without rewatching I doubt the angle was more than a handsbreath out..enough as always.

Two technically bad crosses into the box by Raheem gave Chelsea two goals..margins as ever...the same headless drive into the box gave us a penalty..margins... that is why we watch the game..random chance mixed with sublime skills.

Not knocking Raheem...he put the effort in and got the rewards for once...margins.

I've been critical of the Sanchez signing but he couldn't do anything about the goal. In fact, it revealed the limitations of Cucurella at RB as great as he has been recently. To get nutmegged from there gives Sanchez no chance - Cucurella got sucked towards Foster and then was too far from Odobert to close and block properly. He looked like a left back at right back in that moment. Would also pin the blame on Disasi and Thiago Silva for letting Foster run across our defence so easily.

[kev61]

14 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Pretty much everyone.  Unique, wonderful, but basically was a poor passer, moderate ball control, moderate  awareness of where his colleagues were and probably the only player i can recall whose shooting was worse than Makelele.

Monster player with a perfect understanding of what the opponents were doing.

Try again -is Kante an all rounder?

Honestly mate you kill me.Ok let me simplify - Kante was an 'all rounder' in midfield.You describe him as "unique" "wonderful" and a "monster player" and then you say his shooting was worse than Makelele! - what was he specifically good at that made him a favourite of not only our supporters but also most of the football playing elite?

The way you describe him he is not even as good as Conor Gallagher never mind Enzo.

We're all mates now and I'm sipping a Margarita in the beautiful resort of Dalyan in Turkey - so peace to you and to all people😉

 

[kev61]

16 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

The problem is you and others have been seriously overrating Enzo!

He might be a decent player who does a lot of work that doesn't catch the eye, but never in a million years is he close to being the elite level player his supporters claim him to be. Elite players stand out in any team week after week to a point where nobody questions there contribution to the team. You are correct though in bracketing him in with the likes of Kova and Mikel, which is a more realistic asssessment of his abilities.

He's better than Kante don't you know!.I honestly wonder what people see through their eyes that are completely different from mine.

I'm not saying I'm right and anyone who disagrees with me are wrong,but this data driven AI bullshit drives me nuts.

Do we feed all the data into a computer and wait for it to spit out were we're going wrong?.

[chara]

Hey kev..have fond if somewhat chaotic memories of a three day drive through Turkey so with you very much in spirit..

AI..hmm..if anyone needed AI to assess Bestie or say Messi then I'm afraid they are watching the wrong game!

Believe what your eyes tell you not what numbers crush you with....

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by chara

[kev61]

11 hours ago, Dwmh said:

78.6 Save ratio looks pretty good to me.

 

What we do need is the fire power to overwhelm the oppo on hte odd occasion we do let a soft one in.
04/05, 15 goals Against but when we conceded the team just lit up and charged.  Nothing better than watching the 2004-2010 teams a goal down.

Tremendous.I'm not picking on you Droy but it is awfully hard not to.I guess you amassed all this info from a data site?

I hope you haven't compiled this load of shite by yourself - that would mean you are totally insane.