Eden Hazard Retires

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

What's wrong with that then? 

Conte is a great manager , maybe not a great person always but a great manager.

Exactly - great jockey to get a good team over the line.
Rubbish horse trainer / team builder.
I'd skip the maybe.

[ROTG]

5 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Rubbish horse trainer / team builder.
I'd skip the maybe.

Taken four head coaches to rid the team of 3 at the back and wing back mentality left by Conte. 
I have digressed too much, and  need to get back on topic. 

[thevelourfog]

Interesting discussions all round. I adore Zola, he was magnificent to watch and particularly at a time where lots of PL football was still ... shall we say, agricultural.

But he was not one of the best footballers of his generation. I think there can be comparison of him and Hazard in terms of technical ability and our adoration of them, but there isn't really in terms of their overall stature in the game.

Perhaps the one real comparison that sticks is how both reacted to being booted about. Never lashing our, never complaining. Just getting back up and total mugging off the oppo as revenge.

Hazard would have had a Ballon D'Or or two in the 90s or early 2000s, before you needed to be a ruthless gym psychopath or inhaler addict wracking up Goliath figures to get close. A player out of his era, in some ways.

Edited October 16, 2023 by thevelourfog

[Sleeping Dave]

There is no doubting his ability or general standing in the game. One of my personal favourites of all time no doubt, but not number one by any stretch. 

My top 5 is:

1. Frank Lampard

2. John Terry

3. Didier Drogba

4. Eden Hazard

5. Gianfranco Zola

That ranking is a mix between how good they were in their position, what they won with us and how good they were for us within the contaxt of who they played with. That Frank Lampard is number one is an absolute certainty for me. JT is equally obvious as number two. You can always argue between Drogba, Hazard and Zola, but considering how many absolutely vital goals Drogba scored for us he edges third for me.

Hazard had the potential to be up there with Ronaldo and Messi but mentally he didn't have the same drive as the other two. If he had, he'd have been my number one here. 

[Sciatika]

I tend to have generational favourites: Hutch in the '70s (sadly endlessly injured), Nevin in the '80s, Zola in the '90s, and Lamps in the '00s. For me, Hazard is the star of the '10s. I wonder who will be the one for the '20s.

[chara]

2 hours ago, Sciatika said:

I tend to have generational favourites: Hutch in the '70s (sadly endlessly injured), Nevin in the '80s, Zola in the '90s, and Lamps in the '00s. For me, Hazard is the star of the '10s. I wonder who will be the one for the '20s.

Ah..Hutch a big heart and beloved by a generation at SB...

[kev61]

11 hours ago, Sciatika said:

I tend to have generational favourites: Hutch in the '70s (sadly endlessly injured), Nevin in the '80s, Zola in the '90s, and Lamps in the '00s. For me, Hazard is the star of the '10s. I wonder who will be the one for the '20s.

I agree,but Nevin? good god no.He was a(very)  poor mans charlie cooke.

In my time watching him in the 80's he was very average most games and occasionally very good,but rarely had you on the edge of your seat.

[Michael Tucker]

9 hours ago, chara said:

Ah..Hutch a big heart and beloved by a generation at SB...

This.

"Ian, Ian Hutchinson!"

Made me feel giddy when he was 'on'.

[Sciatika]

7 hours ago, kev61 said:

I agree,but Nevin? good god no.He was a(very)  poor mans charlie cooke.

In my time watching him in the 80's he was very average most games and occasionally very good,but rarely had you on the edge of your seat.

Loved Charlie, too. I have a different opinion from you about Pat Nevin, but this forum wouldn't exist without differences of opinion. I think the axis of Nevin,  Dixon and Speedie created and scored the goals that were instrumental in our return to the First Division in 83-4. He was also an important part of our failed title push of 1986-7. Presumably, that's why he was voted Chelsea Player of the Year by the fans twice (as, of course, was Charlie).

Having said that, my choices are not always about just the on-pitch performances. For me, Nevin brought great joy to a game which was much in need of it in the mid-80s. Hutch never really played much in the 1970s because he spent most of his time injured. But many of my heroes are those who toil against adversity. I always preferred to story of Shackleton over that of Scott. Zola had the same sense of joy about the game as Nevin and was hugely more talented. Unlike Lamps, who was never naturally endowed but worked harder than anyone else to be the best they could be. As someone not particularly talented, I admire that.

[chara]

As an OG I can go back a tad....Bobby Tambling at a time I could relate to the players in age or thereabouts...Eddie Mac and Ken Shellito as good a pair of FBs as you could wish to see...both would walk into the modern game...

Charlie and Ossie... the wonderful curling cross from Cookie met by a stooping Ossie...magic..and I was there as it unfold across from me at my end of OT....every generation Club wise has it's magicians and heroes....all wonderful players to watch or relate to..

Lastly...a True Chelsea Hero..Chopper Harris...one club man...Captain of a Wild Bunch (when that meant something!..no JG fiddlysticks bad boy!)and very much so,,,,,fiercely Chelsea and gave everything every game from the freshfaced youngster to the tiring warrior...as Mr Kipling might have said...

The heart players, beloved ,admired and respected...anyone care to list their heart players?

 

[boratsbrother]

13 hours ago, Sciatika said:

But many of my heroes are those who toil against adversity. I always preferred to story of Shackleton over that of Scott. 

I have equal admiration for those born with a a great talent and those who make it by sheer hard toil.

Imho, Eden was the most naturally talented player to have ever pulled on a Chelsea shirt. When he was really up for it he was almost unplayable.  Having said that, I don't think he fully fulfilled his enormous potential. Just didn't have the incredible and relentless drive of a Messi and Ronaldo.

 As for Shackleton over Scott. 

As incredible as it was, Isn't his story more appealing  because it was one of an epic survival against the odds and with  a happy ending, over one that was a grim failure ending in tragic death?

Captain Bligh and his crew's journey home after being thrown off the Bounty was equally remarkable, but sadly overlooked by history and the Movie and TV industry.

[Sciatika]

True. I liked Shackleton more because he took on a difficult and dangerous journey for the sake of his crew.

[kev61]

On 17/10/2023 at 08:03, Sciatika said:

Loved Charlie, too. I have a different opinion from you about Pat Nevin, but this forum wouldn't exist without differences of opinion. I think the axis of Nevin,  Dixon and Speedie created and scored the goals that were instrumental in our return to the First Division in 83-4. He was also an important part of our failed title push of 1986-7. Presumably, that's why he was voted Chelsea Player of the Year by the fans twice (as, of course, was Charlie).

Having said that, my choices are not always about just the on-pitch performances. For me, Nevin brought great joy to a game which was much in need of it in the mid-80s. Hutch never really played much in the 1970s because he spent most of his time injured. But many of my heroes are those who toil against adversity. I always preferred to story of Shackleton over that of Scott. Zola had the same sense of joy about the game as Nevin and was hugely more talented. Unlike Lamps, who was never naturally endowed but worked harder than anyone else to be the best they could be. As someone not particularly talented, I admire that.

I agree with what you say.I witnessed Speedie getting so fed up with Nevin during a game that he gestured to the crowd(in front of me)that every time he put a ball to Nevin on plate he fucked it up....that was my interpretation anyway.

Nevin was an ok player and sometimes awful.

[martin1905]

For me unquestionably our best ever player and it's not even close. Different level of footballer to anyone we have ever had the privilege to see here.

In any other generation he'd be winning the ballon d'Or on a regular basis. Imagine him in his prime playing today he would be winning it every single year.

As for where he sits as one of our greatest ever players that's a different story, no doubt he's up there but for me there is a big difference between best and greatest. John Terry sits comfortably at the top of that list and will never be overtaken, it's impossible due to where we were as a club and what we achieved under his captaincy. Personally I put Cech in my top 5 greatest along with Didier, Frank and JT. Those 4 for me are indisputable. The last one is up for so much debate, could be one of many, many players, Eden is definitely in the conversation but so is Dennis Wise, who is always overlooked but what he achieved for us at a completely different time for our club puts him as one of our greats. So are Zola, Kante, Azpilicueta, Cole, Essien, Ivanovic, Gallas, Desailly, Cahill,  etc etc.

Big difference between the best and greatest for me and undoubtedly he is the best footballer we have ever seen but one of many in a long, long line of true greats which says an awful lot about just how lucky we have been over the past 25 years.

 

[east lower]

On 17/10/2023 at 15:42, chara said:

As an OG I can go back a tad....Bobby Tambling at a time I could relate to the players in age or thereabouts...Eddie Mac and Ken Shellito as good a pair of FBs as you could wish to see...both would walk into the modern game...

Charlie and Ossie... the wonderful curling cross from Cookie met by a stooping Ossie...magic..and I was there as it unfold across from me at my end of OT....every generation Club wise has it's magicians and heroes....all wonderful players to watch or relate to..

Lastly...a True Chelsea Hero..Chopper Harris...one club man...Captain of a Wild Bunch (when that meant something!..no JG fiddlysticks bad boy!)and very much so,,,,,fiercely Chelsea and gave everything every game from the freshfaced youngster to the tiring warrior...as Mr Kipling might have said...

The heart players, beloved ,admired and respected...anyone care to list their heart players?

 

Envy you being at OT for that night..................still looks amazing.

'Heart'  players  - Albeit not at the club man and boy so to speak but Joey Jones was up there and Dennis Wise also. The latter having seen John Terry drive in in a new and probably flash beyond his teenage years, car. Gave him a clip round the ear,  told him to behave and send the car back. Not to return in anything like it until he'd achieved something - Captaincy at a different level. Plus, Wisey was a sneaky, dirty  little so-and-so, but he was OUR sneaky, dirty  little so-and-so.

[Dwmh]

9 hours ago, kev61 said:

I agree with what you say.I witnessed Speedie getting so fed up with Nevin during a game that he gestured to the crowd(in front of me)that every time he put a ball to Nevin on plate he fucked it up....that was my interpretation anyway.

Nevin was an ok player and sometimes awful.

Not something I saw.  I do recall Dixon getting a rough time from a Div 2  CB so a very young Gordon Durie swapped places and Dixon went to wing.  For 15 mins Durie smashed into the CB then they swapped back and Dixon had an easy ride for the rest of the game.  pretty sure Speedie did similar things.

Generally Speedie's first touch was poor, he just relied on pushing the ball on and being first to react with neither defender or Speedie being sure where it would go.  Nevin's first touch was good.

 

On 17/10/2023 at 15:42, chara said:

.Eddie Mac and Ken Shellito as good a pair of FBs as you could wish to see...both would walk into the modern game.

Yes, but also proof that some ex-pros make fantastic managers, some, er don't.

[chara]

3 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Not something I saw.  I do recall Dixon getting a rough time from a Div 2  CB so a very young Gordon Durie swapped places and Dixon went to wing.  For 15 mins Durie smashed into the CB then they swapped back and Dixon had an easy ride for the rest of the game.  pretty sure Speedie did similar things.

Generally Speedie's first touch was poor, he just relied on pushing the ball on and being first to react with neither defender or Speedie being sure where it would go.  Nevin's first touch was good.

 

Yes, but also proof that some ex-pros make fantastic managers, some, er don't.

Pretty much my view of the Speedie/Nevin/Dixon time.... Nevin was a delight when on song  with the  flair but not the game changing Hazard effect week in week out as per Eden.

Yeah..I seem to recall that Shellito desperately wanted the job and his suitability for the appointment was questioned to him with doubts, got the job but unfortunately wasn't up to it ...one of my very early Chelsea gods!...  still a great FB blighted by Chelsea  early injury curse in a non game...

Eddie Mac?... another would have ,could have question long term. Illustrates your point!

 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, chara said:

Pretty much my view of the Speedie/Nevin/Dixon time.... Nevin was a delight when on song  with the  flair but not the game changing Hazard effect week in week out as per Eden.

Should say that although on that point I came out on Nevin's side, I loved Speedie's commitment while respecting Nevin's skills.
Nevin was far from lazy too, just not muscular.  There was an interview with Johnnie B a year or two ago where he pointed out that it was not just Mickey Thomas on one wing helping out the midfield, it was Nevin putting in a shift too.

As soon as that team started to break up, I just knew Speedie (and Spackman) would end up at Liverpool.  They both looked pretty poor when we were playing really well, but were the stand out performers when we played rubbish.

[east lower]

We were so very lucky to be able to have watched Eden play and enjoyed the many, many magical moments he produced. We saw the very best of him. 

Although he is relatively young to retire, he had a lot of miles on the clock having played professionally in first teams since 16 years of age.

I count myself very fortunate to have witnessed most of his magic in the flesh and live, he was something else - his skill, movement, body strength and speed over those first few yards. Referees didn’t help him and have quite probably contributed to his injury record of the latter years.

He was as near to Messi as I’ve seen, in my view he was at times Messi+, but without that drive to be the very best. Call that ego, single-minded desire to be ‘the number one’ or arrogance, Eden just wanted to be liked and do it his way with burger and fries.

It was a pleasure Mr Hazard and I hope you felt the same way.

Edited October 19, 2023 by east lower

[kev61]

14 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Not something I saw.  I do recall Dixon getting a rough time from a Div 2  CB so a very young Gordon Durie swapped places and Dixon went to wing.  For 15 mins Durie smashed into the CB then they swapped back and Dixon had an easy ride for the rest of the game.  pretty sure Speedie did similar things.

Generally Speedie's first touch was poor, he just relied on pushing the ball on and being first to react with neither defender or Speedie being sure where it would go.  Nevin's first touch was good.

 

10 hours ago, chara said:

 Nevin was a delight when on song  with the  flair. 

 

 

 

My memory of Nevin was a weakling of a player that had some skills that that wouldn't count in today's game.

The game I was talking about when Speedie had a go at him was against notts forest when we were tanked 2-6 in 1986.

Birtles scored a hat trick as did neil webb.

The thing that got me was Pates and Speedie were dropped for the next game! even though they were the best players for Chelsea on the day.

John Hollins a great servant as a player but a terrible manager.

[Sciatika]

To be fair, it wasn't unusual for Speedie to have a go at his teammates, especially when he was frustrated with his own performance.

[east lower]

1 hour ago, Sciatika said:

To be fair, it wasn't unusual for Speedie to have a go at his teammates, especially when he was frustrated with his own performance.

He'd have argued with a reflection of himself in the mirror.

For a smaller chap, he had a massive leap and way of 'hanging' in the air - Jumped early and when the defender started his own jump Speedo just kept his arm over the defenders' shoulder to keep him up that bit longer.

By accounts that I've read he wasn't the most popular in the dressing room.

[jasonb]

8 hours ago, kev61 said:

My memory of Nevin was a weakling of a player that had some skills that that wouldn't count in today's game.

The game I was talking about when Speedie had a go at him was against notts forest when we were tanked 2-6 in 1986.

Birtles scored a hat trick as did neil webb.

The thing that got me was Pates and Speedie were dropped for the next game! even though they were the best players for Chelsea on the day.

John Hollins a great servant as a player but a terrible manager.

Can't see either were dropped after Forest, we lost in the League Cup then beat Utd away and both played.

https://www.bounder.friardale.co.uk/Results/1986.htm#3291

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, jasonb said:

Can't see either were dropped after Forest, we lost in the League Cup then beat Utd away and both played.

https://www.bounder.friardale.co.uk/Results/1986.htm#3291

looks a great site - thanks

[boratsbrother]

11 hours ago, kev61 said:

 

John Hollins a great servant as a player but a terrible manager.

Took us to top of the table at Easter, so he was doing a great job at one point.

If I recall correctly, he was having problems behind the scenes with some of our top players, decided to drop them for a game against QPR which we went onto to get battered 6-0.  From that point on the team fell  apart, as did Hollins career as a manager.🙁