Chelsea 2 Blackburn Rovers 0

[martin1905]

1 minute ago, xceleryx said:

Is it now? If that's the case then I presume you'll never dig a player out again for a poor performance, a missed opportunity, a reckless moment, etc. Since, you know, everything that goes on on the football pitch is on the manager and all.

Taken completely out of context.

1 minute ago, xceleryx said:

Last I checked the priority wasn't to play pretty football, particularly not after the disjointed sloppiness of last season that's for sure. It's about being organised, competitive, and developing what we have - all of which we're doing. If we can play some nice football in between, great (and we have had some passages in fairness), but it's not the priority. Our brand of football is also visible, it's not necessarily free-flowing tiki-taka, and may be more pragmatic than what we'd all like to see, but that's also in part been forced because of injuries and the nature of the squad on hand. 

Where have I mentioned pretty football? 

As for the next bit, that is literally what we are seeing. It's completely disjointed and sloppy, especially in the opponent's half.

 

1 minute ago, xceleryx said:

Let's also not forget Tuchel's powers waned towards the back end of his tenure despite having an established group of proven players at this disposal. His football has also been criticised at Bayern since is arrival there, so let's not place him on some sort of pedestal as if he's the holy grail either. And I say that as someone that didn't believe he should've been fired initially. 

What I wouldn't give for a waining Thomas Tuchel right now. Unbeaten in the Bundesliga and champions league, winning 10 out of 12 games and scoring 43 goals.

He absolutely deserves to be on a pedestal.

[Ham]

55 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I apoloised for my arguing and said I was more open to Pochettino as here were signs of a good team spirit being built. I am more open to him, no way I would sack him now, the time for that has passed. I also said it had nothing to do with the results, my  criticism has very little to do with results and I have been very consistent with that 

Again, nothing to do with results and have not said he should be sacked, quite the opposite.

It's not flip flopping. I said after the Burnley game that I many have been a bit harsh and argumentative on here and apoloised for that. I also said I was more open to Pochettino and I am. 

Doesn't change what we are seeing on the football pitch, week in week out.

Just about sums you up. So arrogant and think you know better than everyone because your opinion is right, literally I'm right your wrong.

I assume the 97 is year year of birth, would explain a lot.

 

Previous for feeling victimised? Your having a laugh. There was a time on here when there was a real clique, backed up by the mods and anyone that didn't agree was abused on an almost daily basis, whilst others got banned left right an centre for nothing as bad as the choosen ones were allowed to say.

I called it out, nothing to do with feeling victimised. I really wish I still had all the PM's I received at the time from lots and lots of members saying they were glad that someone had finally made a stand.

 

 

Your comments were an utter disgrace. You give it the biggun about being a 'semi pro gambler' like that means you know more than most about Toney's situation. So arrogant much like your previous paragraph, I really hope your not 26 with this level of arrogance.

You claim being a 'semi and gambler' you know the industry. Well what you don't know is anything other than what the media has reported. Do you know how often he bets, what he bets on, how much money he has lost, what his mental state is like because of it? No, you know absolutely nothing and to claim him calling for help and admitting his addiction a PR stunt is a disgrace.

I'll tell you what I know. Nothing about gambling as it's a mugs game but I know quite a bit about addiction. My brother died of a drug overdoses when he was 19. My dad was an absusive alcoholic. I've lost 6 people in my life through sucide after issues with addiction. I have personally been addicted to drugs and alcohol at different stages of my life so to claim someone is admitting they are an addict and asking for help, without knowing anything about it, is a PR stunt is a disgrace

Very sorry to hear about everything you've endured in that last paragraph.  That's a lot 💙

[Thiago97]

35 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I apoloised for my arguing and said I was more open to Pochettino as here were signs of a good team spirit being built. I am more open to him, no way I would sack him now, the time for that has passed. I also said it had nothing to do with the results, my  criticism has very little to do with results and I have been very consistent with that 

Again, nothing to do with results and have not said he should be sacked, quite the opposite.

It's not flip flopping. I said after the Burnley game that I many have been a bit harsh and argumentative on here and apoloised for that. I also said I was more open to Pochettino and I am. 

Doesn't change what we are seeing on the football pitch, week in week out.

Just about sums you up. So arrogant and think you know better than everyone because your opinion is right, literally I'm right your wrong.

I assume the 97 is year year of birth, would explain a lot.

 

Previous for feeling victimised? Your having a laugh. There was a time on here when there was a real clique, backed up by the mods and anyone that didn't agree was abused on an almost daily basis, whilst others got banned left right an centre for nothing as bad as the choosen ones were allowed to say.

I called it out, nothing to do with feeling victimised. I really wish I still had all the PM's I received at the time from lots and lots of members saying they were glad that someone had finally made a stand.

 

 

Your comments were an utter disgrace. You give it the biggun about being a 'semi pro gambler' like that means you know more than most about Toney's situation. So arrogant much like your previous paragraph, I really hope your not 26 with this level of arrogance.

You claim being a 'semi and gambler' you know the industry. Well what you don't know is anything other than what the media has reported. Do you know how often he bets, what he bets on, how much money he has lost, what his mental state is like because of it? No, you know absolutely nothing and to claim him calling for help and admitting his addiction a PR stunt is a disgrace.

I'll tell you what I know. Nothing about gambling as it's a mugs game but I know quite a bit about addiction. My brother died of a drug overdoses when he was 19. My dad was an absusive alcoholic. I've lost 6 people in my life through sucide after issues with addiction. I have personally been addicted to drugs and alcohol at different stages of my life so to claim someone is admitting they are an addict and asking for help, without knowing anything about it, is a PR stunt is a disgrace

I sympathise with your previous struggles and loss. However, it's maybe best you block me , as you seem to struggle to deal with engaging in any debate with me. 

Just for the record on Toney. You do know the bets/volume of bets were published ? So we do know what he was betting on, he was betting on football games  which involved  his club/clubs over a 4 years period. Approx 200 bets in total over that 4 year period.  So approx 50 bets a season , when he has approx 200 games a weekend at his disposal to bet on and he didn't. Another point to add some context here, every football game has potential for up to 40 different markets for that one game. Multiply that by have many games there are on a weekend..........we are talking thousands of markets on football every single weekend.........now lets compare that Ivan Toney placed an average of 50 bets per season. That's why I struggle to buy into Ivan Toney being a gambling addict. If he is, then he has been showing some serious self restraint!

You presume he lost money....we dont know that. He might have made a tidy profit, that level of detail has not be published. You presumed that cos 'its a mug's game' in your opinion.

I've never given it the 'biggun' about being a semi pro gambler. I have just mentioned it on occasions for context in a specific discussion. I have never once disclosed any wins/losses, or anything remotely along these lines.

I'm just giving thought out opinions, based on my knowledge/experience of situations. It's not really my fault that I am aware of the background, and you are not aware of this background. 

Also, the 97 refers to my favourite Chelsea moment when Robbie Di Matteo scored that Wembley screamer against Middlesbrough in my teens.  I can't help what my age is I am afraid.

[boratsbrother]

Fact is there are people out there who make a living from gambling, some of them a very good living. There are also those who have "systems" and use them to good effect, especially on football with some being so successful they end up being banned from the bookies. There are of course a more reckless gamblers who just pile on money without any serious thought about what they are doing. They are the problem gamblers. Then there are others who just see gambling as a form of entertainment and only gamble with money they can afford to lose, and they are probably the majority and not doing any harm to themselves.

Edited November 2, 2023 by boratsbrother

[martin1905]

2 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

 

Just for the record on Toney. You do know the bets/volume of bets were published ? So we do know what he was betting on, he was betting on football games  which involved  his club/clubs over a 4 years period. Approx 200 bets in total over that 4 year period.  So approx 50 bets a season , when he has approx 200 games a weekend at his disposal to bet on and he didn't. Another point to add some context here, every football game has potential for up to 40 different markets for that one game. Multiply that by have many games there are on a weekend..........we are talking thousands of markets on football every single weekend.........now lets compare that Ivan Toney placed an average of 50 bets per season. That's why I struggle to buy into Ivan Toney being a gambling addict. If he is, then he has been showing some serious self restraint!

You presume he lost money....we dont know that. He might have made a tidy profit, that level of detail has not be published. You presumed that cos 'its a mug's game' in your opinion.

 

The point being you have no idea about whether or not those are the only bets he has made. He may well be a compulsive gambler with a major problem. You've pounced on what the media has published, belittled him for asking for help and admitting he's an addict, calling it a PR stunt.

There could be thousands more bets he's made on all sorts of other things that were just not published.

[Thiago97]

Just now, martin1905 said:

The point being you have no idea about whether or not those are the only bets he has made. He may well be a compulsive gambler with a major problem. You've pounced on what the media has published, belittled him for asking for help and admitting he's an addict, calling it a PR stunt.

There could be thousands more bets he's made on all sorts of other things that were just not published.

Yes , there could be, but there wasn't . The black market is thriving in betting right now, but you would need specific reasons to drive a bettor to the black market (I won't detail them here to prevent annoying you further). Clearly, Toney didn't do this, because his betting details are all over the ones published and placed, so there is/was no need for him to go down any black market route.

Do you not think if there was a body of evidence of Toney hitting the online roulettes, horses, greyhounds that the FA would not have taken all this into consideration and provided him serious help and a much more lenient ban ? I think they most definitely would have put this information in the public domain, and they probably wouldn't have taken steps to ban him from training with his teammates......I doubt many addicts appreciate isolation and time on their hands.

These players have the money to have great legal aids. I would be very confident the situations plays out something long the lines of ' Ivan , your looking at 12-15 months ban here son. If you admit to being an addict and seek some help, we can probably get that halved' 

Merson is an addict. He was throwing away thousands daily on everything , racing , greyhounds, cards. That addict nature included drugs,drinking etc.

Ivan Toney had 50 bets a season involving the clubs he played for.

Anyway, I think we have probably done this to death and people are tried of reading it. I'm just providing context to the discussion.

[jasonb]

I would not touch Toney due to the betting, the media love having a go at us and if he is seen to be at it again we will be dragged through the media mud and this time significant charges might stick.

We need to be considering someone without this type of baggage.

[Dwmh]

22 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Fact is there are people out there who make a living from gambling, some of them a very good living. There are also those who have "systems" and use them to good effect, especially on football with some being so successful they end up being banned from the bookies. There are of course a more reckless gamblers who just pile on money without any serious thought about what they are doing. They are the problem gamblers. Then there are others who just see gambling as a form of entertainment and only gamble with money they can afford to lose, and they are probably the majority and not doing any harm to themselves.

I'd say the bookies and the smart ones who can price value are the problem ones.  
That they make money is one kind of definition of what is good.
That they create victims is a more important issue.

 

8 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Ivan Toney had 50 bets a season involving the clubs he played for.

He came close to blowing his career through betting despite not needing the money and you reckon he was in control?

For me this is the same as Carlo Cuducini secretly riding a superbike around town when he was at Spurs.
Breaking all the rules.  It is not an argument about whether betting or bike riding is a dangerous activity, it is about knowing breaking sensible rules and endangering one's career.

(Rather surprised to find Carlo back at Chelsea as a coach after that.  Maybe he needed a job he could walk to.)

 

[Miguelito07]

10 minutes ago, jasonb said:

I would not touch Toney due to the betting, the media love having a go at us and if he is seen to be at it again we will be dragged through the media mud and this time significant charges might stick.

We need to be considering someone without this type of baggage.

Aside from that - he's really not that good for the amount of money Brentford are asking. BUT getting fleeced is what we (currently) excel at....

[Thiago97]

Just now, Dwmh said:

I'd say the bookies and the smart ones who can price value are the problem ones.  
That they make money is one kind of definition of what is good.
That they create victims is a more important issue.

 

He came close to blowing his career through betting despite not needing the money and you reckon he was in control?

For me this is the same as Carlo Cuducini secretly riding a superbike around town when he was at Spurs.
Breaking all the rules.  It is not an argument about whether betting or bike riding is a dangerous activity, it is about knowing breaking sensible rules and endangering one's career.

(Rather surprised to find Carlo back at Chelsea as a coach after that.  Maybe he needed a job he could walk to.)

 

Stupidity, boredom........probably not really aware of the rules at the time, and probably didn't think he would get caught. Simple as that in my opinion.

If he had no control, then why virtually all bets on only his club/clubs ? Surely if he had no control, that would lead to bets on other clubs  ?  If anything, his pattern reads of more focusing on specialisation, ie he knows himself and his club better than most as he is on the inside. That's not really addicition like behaviour, its more akin to playing with a smart edge!

I think people not familiar with betting don't realise that 200 odd bets over 4 years is quite a small amount.

 

[Dwmh]

1 minute ago, Thiago97 said:

Stupidity, boredom........probably not really aware of the rules at the time, and probably didn't think he would get caught. Simple as that in my opinion.

If he had no control, then why virtually all bets on only his club/clubs ? Surely if he had no control, that would lead to bets on other clubs  ?  If anything, his pattern reads of more focusing on specialisation, ie he knows himself and his club better than most as he is on the inside. That's not really addicition like behaviour, its more akin to playing with a smart edge!

I think people not familiar with betting don't realise that 200 odd bets over 4 years is quite a small amount.

 

Doh it wasn't 200 small bets.

It was a huge bet, minimum cost 6 months wages.
It was lunatic out of control betting.
What is not clear here?

[Thiago97]

Just now, Dwmh said:

Doh it wasn't 200 small bets.

It was a huge bet, minimum cost 6 months wages.
It was lunatic out of control betting.
What is not clear here?

I forgot modern days players are a very bright bunch, that despite all their wealth and lack of not needing to get themselves into stupid positions, they seem to find a way of doing exactly that over and over again. I mean how many examples could we name here over the last 12 months.

All avoidable and all stupid decisions to take from a career perspective, yet they still did it.

I wouldn't use the common sense of the average man, as the barometer for a modern day footballer. You are certainly smarter than that.

[Dwmh]

43 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I forgot modern days players are a very bright bunch, that despite all their wealth and lack of not needing to get themselves into stupid positions, they seem to find a way of doing exactly that over and over again. I mean how many examples could we name here over the last 12 months.

All avoidable and all stupid decisions to take from a career perspective, yet they still did it.

I wouldn't use the common sense of the average man, as the barometer for a modern day footballer. You are certainly smarter than that.

Out of control then

200 times.  England career dead

[martin1905]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

 

Ivan Toney had 50 bets a season involving the clubs he played for.

 

Doubt he played many more games than that though so he must have pretty much had a bet on every game he played in during a 4 year period. And that's without any other betting, be it with bookies or elsewhere that we just don't know about 

He is the definition of an addict, it's not about frequency, it's about not having control and not being able to stop, something he clearly couldn't do.

[thevelourfog]

2 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

Just for the record on Toney. You do know the bets/volume of bets were published ? So we do know what he was betting on, he was betting on football games  which involved  his club/clubs over a 4 years period. Approx 200 bets in total over that 4 year period.  So approx 50 bets a season , when he has approx 200 games a weekend at his disposal to bet on and he didn't. Another point to add some context here, every football game has potential for up to 40 different markets for that one game. Multiply that by have many games there are on a weekend..........we are talking thousands of markets on football every single weekend.........now lets compare that Ivan Toney placed an average of 50 bets per season. That's why I struggle to buy into Ivan Toney being a gambling addict. If he is, then he has been showing some serious self restraint!

I left this in the transfer thread, but as this is being repeated again, it warrant response again.

You have literally no idea how many bets Toney was placing. What you know is what he has been punished for, so the bets that a) fall foul of FA rules and b) there was enough evidence of to punish him for. It is entirely your assumption, and one you can offer no substantiating evidence for, that these known bets represent the totality of his gambling. Alongside this, you have literally no idea how compulsively he was placing bets, what level of psychological dependency he may have had on gambling, what meaning gambling had for him, or what the impact of gambling was on him and those around them. We don't know each other, I have no idea about your experiences, I'll take your word that you're well informed on gambling, but really it reads like you don't have much of an understanding of what addiction is. 

It is frankly unpleasant to sit at a distance and say that someone who says they have an addiction doesn't based on very, very limited insight into their behaviour, and outright disingenuous to then say "it's just my opinion". We have opinions on things like how Chelsea played against Blackburn and what kind of job Pochettino is doing, not whether or not people we don't know genuinely have the problems they say they do.

None of what I'm saying, to be clear, obliges you to give a flying fuck about Toney. We don't owe him sympathy, or any guilt if we don't especially care about him as individual. This isn't about you being Rail roaded into shedding a tear for Ivan Toney. It's about recognising the limits of your own knowledge.

[thevelourfog]

23 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I left this in the transfer thread, but as this is being repeated again, it warrant response again.

You have literally no idea how many bets Toney was placing. What you know is what he has been punished for, so the bets that a) fall foul of FA rules and b) there was enough evidence of to punish him for. It is entirely your assumption, and one you can offer no substantiating evidence for, that these known bets represent the totality of his gambling. Alongside this, you have literally no idea how compulsively he was placing bets, what level of psychological dependency he may have had on gambling, what meaning gambling had for him, or what the impact of gambling was on him and those around them. We don't know each other, I have no idea about your experiences, I'll take your word that you're well informed on gambling, but really it reads like you don't have much of an understanding of what addiction is. 

Caught up on the rest of the thread too late to edit this and have now seen all the other posts covering this very well, so apologies @Thiago97 if this feels like you're being piled on. I think you're well off in what you're saying and it's right to call you on it, but appreciate there's a limit to how many people any of us need to hear that from.

[Thiago97]

6 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I left this in the transfer thread, but as this is being repeated again, it warrant response again.

You have literally no idea how many bets Toney was placing. What you know is what he has been punished for, so the bets that a) fall foul of FA rules and b) there was enough evidence of to punish him for. It is entirely your assumption, and one you can offer no substantiating evidence for, that these known bets represent the totality of his gambling. Alongside this, you have literally no idea how compulsively he was placing bets, what level of psychological dependency he may have had on gambling, what meaning gambling had for him, or what the impact of gambling was on him and those around them. We don't know each other, I have no idea about your experiences, I'll take your word that you're well informed on gambling, but really it reads like you don't have much of an understanding of what addiction is. 

It is frankly unpleasant to sit at a distance and say that someone who says they have an addiction doesn't based on very, very limited insight into their behaviour, and outright disingenuous to then say "it's just my opinion". We have opinions on things like how Chelsea played against Blackburn and what kind of job Pochettino is doing, not whether or not people we don't know genuinely have the problems they say they do.

None of what I'm saying, to be clear, obliges you to give a flying fuck about Toney. We don't owe him sympathy, or any guilt if we don't especially care about him as individual. This isn't about you being Rail roaded into shedding a tear for Ivan Toney. It's about recognising the limits of your own knowledge.

I completley respect your position and post on this. You may say me having an opinion on this is disingenious, but my opinion is what it is on this.   I am not giving an opinion on anything in the realms of any legal situation here, nor am I being directly offensive to anybody on this forum with my opinion, though some appear to want to go out of their way to find offence.

People have opinions on peoples character on here and in many walks of life, and not just on football. I actually like Ivan Toney, I like his calm demeanour and strength of personality. I think he would be a great addition at the right price, I  just don't happen to believe he is a gambling addict, just like it seems every player who is caught gambling in recent times, then claim to be a gambling addict.

I have been more than happy to shut this conversation down at times today, but I have responded out of courtesy to direct posts to me , relating to this topic. The whole discussion on this today was off the back of a dispute over Poch/Chelsea, it was thrown into the mix in a cheap points scoring excercise ,and not relevant to that discussion at the time, which it has then spiralled through discussion.

So for the record. If anyone is offended by me having an opinion on if Ivan Toney has a gambling problem, then I am very sorry that I upset anyone.

For the record, as someone who bets , I find the term 'Mug's game' offensive, disingenious, and I don't like being represented as a 'mug'........clearly I am not being serious here.

 

 

[Thiago97]

2 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Caught up on the rest of the thread too late to edit this and have now seen all the other posts covering this very well, so apologies @Thiago97 if this feels like you're being piled on. I think you're well off in what you're saying and it's right to call you on it, but appreciate there's a limit to how many people any of us need to hear that from.

No worries. It would be impossible for me to take offence on here, or feel like I was being piled onto.

[Ham]

God forbid any of us should venture an opinion on the possibility of a player trying to reduce a ban by claiming addiction. 

It's his opinion. Might be true. Might not.

It did look like a pile-on from the outside. 

 

[east lower]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

Out of control then

200 times.  England career dead

Included in the bets placed were 13 (reported number) on his own club to lose. He didn’t play in any of those games where he placed that type of bet.

He also initially denied the allegations. 
 

So, a liar and someone who would risk a lifetime ban (maximum penalty for betting on your own club to lose), not the sort of character you want around. 

[Ham]

1 minute ago, east lower said:

Included in the bets placed were 13 (reported number) on his own club to lose. He didn’t play in any of those games where he placed that type of bet.

He also initially denied the allegations. 
 

So, a liar and someone who would risk a lifetime ban (maximum penalty for betting on your own club to lose), not the sort of character you want around. 

And not beyond the realms of possibility that he might fib about addiction.  

 

[Thiago97]

9 minutes ago, Ham said:

God forbid any of us should venture an opinion on the possibility of a player trying to reduce a ban by claiming addiction. 

It's his opinion. Might be true. Might not.

It did look like a pile-on from the outside. 

 

It didn’t feel like that. If anything, it only served to confirm a comment I made in a previous post.

Gambling is a dirty word in the Uk right now. The media ensure they ramp that up at every opportunity, so it’s no surprise it received a certain reaction. All the mainstream we hear are stories with severe negative connotations around gambling, despite addiction stats on gambling being very low. Whilst many will not want to realise they have influenced by the media on areas like this, the chances are they have. 
The reaction received today is very different to the reaction it would have received 5-6 years back. 
No hard feelings on my side though 👍

Edited November 2, 2023 by Thiago97

[Dwmh]

5 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Gambling is a dirty word in the Uk right now.

Perhaps because it is dirty.  And was 5-6 years ago.  And worse before that.
A rare occasion of the media picking up on some justified anger about behaviour by betting companies.
The sports betting is bad enough, but the games betting has a lot of victims too.

[Thiago97]

1 minute ago, Dwmh said:

Perhaps because it is dirty.  And was 5-6 years ago.  And worse before that.
A rare occasion of the media picking up on some justified anger about behaviour by betting companies.
The sports betting is bad enough, but the games betting has a lot of victims too.

I don’t disagree their behaviour has been very poor at times. They have certainly helped create the mess the industry is in. 

Thats big corp for you. They are the ones who created the monster with their own lack of foresight and greed.

That don’t mean we should have prohibition on what people chose to spend their money on. Especially when you can go and buy two bottles of whiskey a day and have no questions asked. I would suggest there are far more issues with that lifestyle choice, when compared with gambling.

Anyway, I doubt many want to hear or read this, so probably a good point to draw a line under it. 

[east lower]

23 minutes ago, Ham said:

And not beyond the realms of possibility that he might fib about addiction.  

 

One word - Tonali 🤥