Tottenham Hotspur 1 Chelsea 4

[RDCW]

19 minutes ago, RDCW said:

Yes, they are all easy until you remember Torres, Morata, Havertz, Werner, Lukaku, Remy, Bats, Kerman, Sturridge, Di Santo, Pizzaro, Patrick, Hudson-Odoi....Sutton, Fleck etc and how difficult they made them look.

Pato, not Patrick and Kezman not Kerman, in case anyone was confused 😆

[paulw66]

1 minute ago, RDCW said:

Pato, not Patrick and Kezman not Kerman, in case anyone was confused 😆

I managed to get from Kerman to Kezman, but "Patrick" had me foxed. 

[Max Fowler]

Honestly based on starts I think the below is pretty harsh on Timo. I am still angry at Mudryk for his cameo from last night. He nearly singlehandedly cost us the game with his constant giveaways of possession.

Poch has previously said he needs to "understand the game better", but isn't that a requirement at this level? Apparently Poch was angry at his performance too, a big step backwards in my eyes as I was warming to him.
 

2 hours ago, exiledblue said:

Mudryk is another Werner. Has talent but is too eager

 

[martin1905]

I assume the Udogie challenge was not a straight red because he made no contact?

He could have snapped Sterling's leg in half with that challenge and there was clear intent.  Of all the bad VAR decisions over the last few years this is instantly my number one worst decision of all time. A player tried to snap an opponent's leg in half but because there was no contact gets away with it. It wasn't a difficult decision to make, reckless, dangerous, out of control,  serious foul play with clear intent to endanger an opponent.

It's the sort of challenge before VAR that should 100% recieve retrospective punishment and a minimum 3 game ban, much longer in my opinion there is no place for that sort of challenge in football, it was potentially career ending and without a doubt completely intentional.

[Miguelito07]

Didnt watch the game last night - but saw that Enzo was subbed off in the second half. Injured?

Also, how did James play? Starter against Man Shitty?

[Max Fowler]

3 minutes ago, Miguelito07 said:

Didnt watch the game last night - but saw that Enzo was subbed off in the second half. Injured?

Also, how did James play? Starter against Man Shitty?

I think tactical reasons. He was pretty poor yesterday - kept giving the ball away needlessly.

James added a level of quality and Gusto was weaker coming on. So yes, James starts.

[martin1905]

16 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Honestly based on starts I think the below is pretty harsh on Timo. I am still angry at Mudryk for his cameo from last night. He nearly singlehandedly cost us the game with his constant giveaways of possession.

Poch has previously said he needs to "understand the game better", but isn't that a requirement at this level? Apparently Poch was angry at his performance too, a big step backwards in my eyes as I was warming to him.
 

 

The obvious thing to do at half time was bring Mudryk on, play Palmer as a 10 and the instructions should have been for Sterling, Jackson and Mudryk to start from deep and time their runs in behind. The instructions to the rest of the team should have been be patient, keep the ball, spread the play, pull Tottenham all over the pitch from side to side and at the right time play the through ball.

Instead we had 3 or 4 players starting in an offfside position and were far too hasty with our forward balls, just aimlessly playing long balls, mostly overhit, into space without any forward runners.

Blame the players, the board, the manager but two things really struck home with me last night. How they were unable to  employ such simple tactics and how the manager wasn't able to change it or MAKE them change.

It is my opinion that any other team in the league would have completely destroyed Tottenham in the second half. It's not about coming up against 9 men who play a suicidal high line and the unique circumstances. It's about our entire play with the ball having no plan. No cohesion.No patterns of play. No speed. No urgency. With the ball from goalkeeper to centre forward and everyone in between we are clueless, like we were under Potter. 

This for me comes down to what we do on the training ground and I don't care who the players are or if all 11 aren't good enough. That would excuse poor results but it absolute does not excuse the level of performances we have seen all season. 

It's like we put out 11 players who have never played together. Every single game.

A well drilled, well organised team would have battered them last night. It could have and should have been one of the most humiliating performances in premier league history. Instead Tottenham fans loved it and are laughing at us for how poor we were.

At some point, much like with Potter the excuses really need to stop. I can't reiterate enough how it has nothing to do with results, it's all about how we perform as a team and last night is a harrowing example of just how bad we currently are.

[paulw66]

22 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I assume the Udogie challenge was not a straight red because he made no contact?

 

Which is a farce. 

So, if you swing a punch and the player ducks, it's not violent?

That was the clearest red you will ever see, and I see good Old Dermot is already saying it was correct not to overrule. 

[Dwmh]

Given the violence dished out by Spurs, I'm wondering if I got Poch and that 2016 match wrong.
Maybe it wasn't a spurs team fired up by the manager, maybe it was a Chelsea hating club that the manager was unable to control.
There are no excuses for that game, just different explanations.

2 hours ago, exiledblue said:

2 things when we were playing against 9

• Why didnt we put the ball behind them more often to tire and stretch them? We seemed content to try and hold a 1 goal lead and pass back or sideways when forwards were starting runs and being ignored
• How many times did we conceed fouls? This gave up possession and let them waste time.

Other:

Good call to take of Colwill, he should have walked away

Sanchez is no upgrade, he terrifies me with the ball at his feet

Happy to see James get time and no injury

Mudryk is another Werner. Has talent but is too eager

Jackson is still not up to speed with Prem, he gets the ball taken off him to easily

Gallagher is impressing with his constant availability

Nice everyone wants to walk the ball in but sometimes a sideways pass to a free teammate is better

Cuca touched his hair less last night

Always nice to beat Spurs

Interesting points.
Our inability to work out how to play against 9 men was very worrying
On conceding fouls, spurs just went over on every touch.  The ref just ignored 2 in 3 but got conned quite a lot all the same.  Long free kick into the box was their best attacking chance with 9 men.

Sanchez won us the game with the save against Son.  2-2 then and it finishes 2-2.

Gallagher is a great player. His only problem has been managers that wanted to use him as a 2nd Mount and now the purchase of Caicedo who has the aggressive ball winnerrole in CM that Gallagher should have.  Not saying Gallagher is better or worth £100m+, but he is a fine player.

So the last goal by Jackson looks like he is being selfish even as he struggles to control the ball.  But I think actually he is just letting the ball roll forward and his awkwardness is simply his avoiding getting in front of it.  He could have squared to Mudryk but then the goalkeeper goes down on his left, at which point the smart play is to take it around the other side while the keeper is struggling to get up.

 

 

2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

On of the best games I have been to. Ever. The excitement and entertainment was incredible and we beat them 4-1 in their own backyard. Not only that, we destroyed their season. With the injuries and sending offs, they won't cope in the next few games.

Also Postecoglou is an absolute mug. They'd have beaten us if they just played their game. They may play a high line normally but not like that, not that high, constantly. I'd be fuming if a manager did that for us. Funny thing was their fans were really pleased. Sums them up as a football club. So used to not winning they'd rather see that than them win a game of football. I mean, they actually applauded when we went in front, I've never seen anything like it. Was really odd.

Unfortunately Pochettino really let himself down. Any other team in the league would have destroyed them playing like that yet we decided to have four players standing offside most of the time.

We looked completely clueless and aimless. We don't know how to play football. All we had to do was be patient and make our runs from deep yet we just stayed really high, so high we were offfside most of the time, even though they were on the half way line at their deepest! Then we just kept hitting hopeful, long balls over the top. It was school boy stuff.

Blame the board, blame the players, blame the manager. What can not be up for debate is, regardless of personnel we need an awful lot of work on the training ground which is my biggest disappointment with Pochettino. I thought if nothing else he would get us well drilled and look like we know what we are doing. It's Potter like and that's about as damming a statement as you could make about any football manager. 

 

 

5 great points precisely written up.
I think part of the disappointment of us TV watchers is that we were not there!  Damn.
Both managers should be ashamed of themselves this morning.
We looked like talented Aussie Rules players who were great athletes but had no idea of basic football tactics.
I was going to say Rugby Union players, but our team and Poch really should watch how Rugby players never wander off-side but attack the ball by sprinting from behind the offside line in an attempt to be at full speed when they break it.
 

2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

Just imagine what Man City would have done to them last night.

It is not City I worry about, they would have got 6 against 11 men playing that.
It is Luton, Burnley, Bournemouth and Sheffield, the bottom 4 who have given Spurs half their points.
Each of them would have won 4-1 against 9 men and that highline, much much earlier than we did.
 

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

I think Udogie not getting a straight red even after VAR intervention is up there with the worst VAR decisions I have ever seen. It is completely bizarre to see Spurs being written up as have-a-go-heroes, battling on through adversity, when the plain reality is that the game plan was to assault us at every opportunity. And for a good while they were allowed to, it was only the prospect of having to allow us an offside goal that pushed the officials into action. They were beyond aggressive to the point of violence, and seemed very wound up by the fact that (unlike our last few meetings) we had a few players who wouldn't stand for it.

I agree it should have been Red, as might the James straight arm.
But on the whole VAR did a fantastic job.  All the offside decisions were right  (the highline being the reason there were so many of them).
Compare 2016 where a ref went bonkers and there was no VAR to bail him out (rescue his career, he retired early a few games later) and there was a serious danger of injuries and a dreadful example for young and amateur players.

19 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

It's the sort of challenge before VAR that should 100% recieve retrospective punishment and a minimum 3 game ban, much longer in my opinion there is no place for that sort of challenge in football, it was potentially career ending and without a doubt completely intentional.

One of the failures of the current system is it seems they no longer review decisions after the game.  

5 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

The obvious thing to do at half time was bring Mudryk on, play Palmer as a 10 and the instructions should have been for Sterling, Jackson and Mudryk to start from deep and time their runs in behind. The instructions to the rest of the team should have been be patient, keep the ball, spread the play, pull Tottenham all over the pitch from side to side and at the right time play the through ball.

Instead we had 3 or 4 players starting in an offfside position and were far too hasty with our forward balls, just aimlessly playing long balls, mostly overhit, into space without any forward runners.

My words (without mentioning Palmer) at h/t & 10 players.  It really was that obvious.

8 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Blame the players, the board, the manager but two things really struck home with me last night. How they were unable to  employ such simple tactics and how the manager wasn't able to change it or MAKE them change.

So who does this remind us of?

Of course the club is in such a mess it may be the players aren't listening to Poch much.  Either way we have serious problems.
And the tactics required yesterday were so basic that every player should have been able to work it out for themselves.

[Max Fowler]

7 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

The obvious thing to do at half time was bring Mudryk on, play Palmer as a 10 and the instructions should have been for Sterling, Jackson and Mudryk to start from deep and time their runs in behind. The instructions to the rest of the team should have been be patient, keep the ball, spread the play, pull Tottenham all over the pitch from side to side and at the right time play the through ball.

Instead we had 3 or 4 players starting in an offfside position and were far too hasty with our forward balls, just aimlessly playing long balls, mostly overhit, into space without any forward runners.

Blame the players, the board, the manager but two things really struck home with me last night. How they were unable to  employ such simple tactics and how the manager wasn't able to change it or MAKE them change.

It is my opinion that any other team in the league would have completely destroyed Tottenham in the second half. It's not about coming up against 9 men who play a suicidal high line and the unique circumstances. It's about our entire play with the ball having no plan. No cohesion.No patterns of play. No speed. No urgency. With the ball from goalkeeper to centre forward and everyone in between we are clueless, like we were under Potter. 

This for me comes down to what we do on the training ground and I don't care who the players are or if all 11 aren't good enough. That would excuse poor results but it absolute does not excuse the level of performances we have seen all season. 

It's like we put out 11 players who have never played together. Every single game.

A well drilled, well organised team would have battered them last night. It could have and should have been one of the most humiliating performances in premier league history. Instead Tottenham fans loved it and are laughing at us for how poor we were.

At some point, much like with Potter the excuses really need to stop. I can't reiterate enough how it has nothing to do with results, it's all about how we perform as a team and last night is a harrowing example of just how bad we currently are.

I think you're overreacting Martin, or at least I don't fully agree.

Don't get me wrong, if we had not won that game second half I would have been ready to have Poch gone, but we did win and we won comfortably in the end. Yes it was a rough performance, but a win really is a win.

I think there are bright sparks in players we did not see last season. Cucurella. Caicedo. Palmer. Gallagher. Disasi. Colwill. Sterling. Even Jackson and Enzo who have a lot to work on usually show something worth mentioning.

I still think most Chelsea fans are questioning Poch, and rightly so, but he has improved quite a few of the above players and most of the new signings among them look like good additions to the team from last season.

I do see some patterns of play but not much in the final third. He needs to improve us there. Where do we need to finish? Is 8th okay? I think we can do that or maybe a bit higher if we add the right names in January. We keep moving.

[Siidi]

We still managed to look a mess against 9 men Spurs. 

Even playing 11 against 9 we still couldn't defend our far post, conceding another far post goal, which fortunately for us was offside. What on earth is Pochettino and his assistants doing in training? This  "young team" excuse is wearing thin. To me it's a coaching failure, full stop.

[exiledblue]

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

the game plan was to assault us at every opportunity

Isnt it always?  Was pleased Poch withdrew Colwill as he hadn't understood that

[Dwmh]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

I think you're overreacting Martin, or at least I don't fully agree.

Don't get me wrong, if we had not won that game second half I would have been ready to have Poch gone, but we did win and we won comfortably in the end. Yes it was a rough performance, but a win really is a win.

I think there are bright sparks in players we did not see last season. Cucurella. Caicedo. Palmer. Gallagher. Disasi. Colwill. Sterling. Even Jackson and Enzo who have a lot to work on usually show something worth mentioning.

I still think most Chelsea fans are questioning Poch, and rightly so, but he has improved quite a few of the above players and most of the new signings among them look like good additions to the team from last season.

I do see some patterns of play but not much in the final third. He needs to improve us there. Where do we need to finish? Is 8th okay? I think we can do that or maybe a bit higher if we add the right names in January. We keep moving.

Price of players is more than
Quality of players is more than
Performances of players is more than 
XG created  is more than
Goals scored  is greater than
Points achieved from the goals.

and we can no longer include luck or refs on our list of excuses.

Sure there are some good players up high on that list and some fairly decent individual performances.
Our two £100m+ players could easily play for a top 4 club.
But every step in the process from players bought to points accumulated there are some massive failures.
 

[Backbiter]

53 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I assume the Udogie challenge was not a straight red because he made no contact?

He could have snapped Sterling's leg in half with that challenge and there was clear intent.  Of all the bad VAR decisions over the last few years this is instantly my number one worst decision of all time. A player tried to snap an opponent's leg in half but because there was no contact gets away with it. It wasn't a difficult decision to make, reckless, dangerous, out of control,  serious foul play with clear intent to endanger an opponent.

It's the sort of challenge before VAR that should 100% recieve retrospective punishment and a minimum 3 game ban, much longer in my opinion there is no place for that sort of challenge in football, it was potentially career ending and without a doubt completely intentional.

The Havertz decision on Saturday showed that VAR is fine with out-of-control feet-off-the-ground studs-up tackles even if they catch the player on the shin. So the fact that Sterling just  evaded the contact from a two-footed off-the- ground studs-up tackle from behind would not have come into their thinking. Even if he'd caught him full on the Achilles they'd have thought 'We'll let that go. Too early in the game. And it's Chelsea anyway, so no one cares'. 

You have to keep reminding yourself that the people in charge of VAR do not understand the game and have no clue what they are doing.

[martin1905]

26 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I think you're overreacting Martin, or at least I don't fully agree.

Don't get me wrong, if we had not won that game second half I would have been ready to have Poch gone, but we did win and we won comfortably in the end. Yes it was a rough performance, but a win really is a win.

 

I think where we differ Max is that it's not about results for me and never has been. You say if we hadn't have won you'd have wanted him gone, I assume that is because of the way we performed? The result doesn't change the performance and I struggle how scoring late goals can change your opinion so much.

That's what it has been about for me from day one, especially with such a young, brand new squad. We have to build and see improvement. I'm not seeing it, others are but I think last night was one of the most embarrassing performance's I have ever seen. I mean the Tottenham fans loved every second of it. That should tell you something and if it doesn't they fucking applauded when we went ahead. That really should tell you everything about last night.

[Backbiter]

38 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Which is a farce. 

So, if you swing a punch and the player ducks, it's not violent?

That was the clearest red you will ever see, and I see good Old Dermot is already saying it was correct not to overrule. 

His thinking being, Oliver is our best ref and VAR can't embarrass him by sending him to the monitor making him see he's got such a simple decision over a dangerous challenge horribly wrong. Similar thinking was behind Dean's refusal to get Taylor to review the Cucurrella hair pull. (That was Romero too, wasn't it?. What a scumbag. Three red card offences in two games against us, only one of which was punished) 

[paulw66]

38 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Sanchez won us the game with the save against Son.  2-2 then and it finishes 2-2.
 

Routine save. 

[paulw66]

9 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I mean the Tottenham fans loved every second of it. 

Of course. After the second red card, it was all a bit of a laugh, with nothing to lose. 

[martin1905]

36 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

So who does this remind us of?

Of course the club is in such a mess it may be the players aren't listening to Poch much.  Either way we have serious problems.
And the tactics required yesterday were so basic that every player should have been able to work it out for themselves.

Not sure if you were around but someone came up with Potterino which I thought was very funny and very apt.

[Backbiter]

4 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Of course. After the second red card, it was all a bit of a laugh, with nothing to lose. 

Interesting how the second red came about. We had a three on two, with players making good well-timed runs either side of the ball, and Sterling made an absolute pug's ear of the opportunity. If he had fed either runner, they'd no doubt have botched the finish, so Sterling's ineptitude at that moment actually helped us 

[NoblyBobly]

12 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Who was the last Chelsea player to score a premier league hat trick against Spurs? 

Hasselbaink in 2003?

I think the actual last hat trick in any game against 11 men was Tammy A . It was either FA cup or Haribo Cup. Might have been Lamps last game. 

[Dwmh]

5 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Not sure if you were around but someone came up with Potterino which I thought was very funny and very apt.

I wasn't around to find out what people thought of Potter, I thought that there was at least a bit of continuation from TT who had done pre-season with them.
 

[My Blood Is Blue]

https://talksport.com/football/1631646/jason-cundy-bursts-into-talksport-studio-mock-jamie-ohara-chelsea-tottenham/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=talksportfacebook&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1699344603

[NoblyBobly]

10 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Not sure if you were around but someone came up with Potterino which I thought was very funny and very apt.

I like that!  In hindsight, with a good nights sleep and with 3 points in the bag against yet another over pumped up Spurs side determined to put us in our place, my morning coffee tastes ok. 
But let me tell you, when that second Spurs “goal” went it ( and it was a peach) , a strange darkness descended upon me. In that millisecond I had realised that for all eternity we would be goaded by Spurs about how we couldn’t beat 9 men.  For all eternity Poch would have the piss taken out of him by his old club, and in the present moment the humiliation  would have drained every last ounce of confidence from our players. There would be no coming back from that in a long long time. I don’t think I have ever been so relieved to see a lino, straight backed, poker faced holding up a flag. 
By all means let’s chant 4-1 , and if they miss a CL spot by a point we will chant it again. But that game was a hairs breadth way from being an unmitigated disaster for us.  And I have no doubt that if they had put 5 men behind the ball at half time , we would have failed to break them down, the same as we have failed to break any team down that has done that to us this season. 

[NoblyBobly]

7 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

https://talksport.com/football/1631646/jason-cundy-bursts-into-talksport-studio-mock-jamie-ohara-chelsea-tottenham/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=talksportfacebook&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1699344603

He was value for money last night Mr Cundy.