Chelsea Sack Graham Potter

[thevelourfog]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/02/20/five-reasons-chelsea-have-not-sacked-graham-potter-yet/

May be of interest. 

I don't think Potter should be here (now, or at any point since September) but can accept there is some logic to some of these positions. Some, though, are completely wrong headed and the sort of nonsense conclusions you only come to with a nonsense starting point. The idea that Potter deserves a pre-season rather than "paying the price for problems he inherited", for example. Potter did not inherit a relegation form team. Not even close, and I don't think even the fiercest Tuchel critic would suggest that was the trajectory we were on under him. That problem is very clearly one he has made a significant contribution towards, if not been the sole architect of.

I think we all have to accept he is not going anywhere this season. The only thing I can imagine shifting that is our relegation form is matched by our position in the table.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, CarefreeMuratcan said:

Own up to the mistake and bring Tuchel back. 

Unfortunately, I've now come to accept this is highly unlikely. Simon Jordan talked to Boehly about it and said that he'd have sacked Tuchel too for the same reasons (inclined to believe him). I think there must have been huge tensions behind the scenes with Boehly bringing new ideas to the table and Tuchel becoming increasingly frustrated.

I wish Tuchel could somehow have been more open and aware of the forces around him - but Boehly also seemed hell-bent on bringing his ideas to the table rather than trusting Tuchel - the elite football expert, and building the club around him. When Boehly discovered inflexibility his ego exploded and their relationship broke down badly. 

Nonetheless, I still suspect Boehly sub-consciously wanted his own man as he could never fully take the credit for success under Tuchel. In steps Potter - who by the way no other top club was after even if he was highly thought of. Noone really thought he was an elite manager - and he's done nothing to prove that he is capable of making the step up.

I still think Boehly is 100% behind Potter - there may be a sunken cost fallacy going on and the only way out will be increasing hostility from the fans. From all accounts Southampton was the first time it really "turned" even though many on here have been raising the same concerns for months. New signings only briefly papered over the cracks.

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

If we follow the pattern Tuchel's last 50 games and use those 50 games as a guide and average for this season. We would have another 12pts on top of what we have now, which would have us in 4th place 1pt above Spurs.

Clearly, this is a very rough guide and does not take into account how other teams points we have played may differ. Whilst we would clearly love and accept that now, if we were in that situation. I suspect we might be a little disappointed.

This is not a dig at Tuchel as I think he is a very good manager. I felt he deserved more time, but we did see a slight downward trajectory in his 2nd 50 games, compared with his first 50 games.

 

Personally I'd have been content with 4th place by 1 point in mid-February, given the preceding year. You're right there would have been complaints, always are, but staying competitive would have been an achievement. And I think we'd have done that under Tuchel.

But he went because the owners couldn't find a way to get on with him. That was obvious at the time, and I'd hope even his biggest critics at the time can now see that is the case and that it was not results. Boehly, in his own way, was at least honest about that. 

[RDCW]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Unfortunately, I've now come to accept this is highly unlikely. Simon Jordan talked to Boehly about it and said that he'd have sacked Tuchel too for the same reasons (inclined to believe him). I think there must have been huge tensions behind the scenes with Boehly bringing new ideas to the table and Tuchel becoming increasingly frustrated.

I wish Tuchel could somehow have been more open and aware of the forces around him - but Boehly also seemed hell-bent on bringing his ideas to the table rather than trusting Tuchel - the elite football expert, and building the club around him. When Boehly discovered inflexibility his ego exploded and their relationship broke down badly. 

Nonetheless, I still suspect Boehly sub-consciously wanted his own man as he could never fully take the credit for success under Tuchel. In steps Potter - who by the way no other top club was after even if he was highly thought of. Noone really thought he was an elite manager - and he's done nothing to prove that he is capable of making the step up.

I still think Boehly is 100% behind Potter - there may be a sunken cost fallacy going on and the only way out will be increasing hostility from the fans. From all accounts Southampton was the first time it really "turned" even though many on here have been raising the same concerns for months. New signings only briefly papered over the cracks.

Now that it has turned there is no way back for Potter short of a Lazarusesque reversal of on-field form, which sadly we all know is not going to happen.

[Max Fowler]

3 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I think we all have to accept he is not going anywhere this season. The only thing I can imagine shifting that is our relegation form is matched by our position in the table.

I think if the atmosphere continues to turn against him with continued bad results - anything could happen. Boehly is apparently in touch with the fanbase and if it continues to turn increasingly hostile anything could happen.

I wasn't able to read The Telegraph article but I suspect some Chelsea fans frustration might be the perceived bias Potter is getting from British journalists. Example - Nizaar Kinsella keeps complaining about the hostility Chelsea fans are showing towards Potter but now has only barely started recognizing how bad things have gotten on the pitch.

It feels like the British journalists - and Potter himself - are ignoring the Chelsea fans and their own intuition about what is going on on the pitch and in the press conferences. The fans are being looked down on even though they are the ones who live and die by the club and I would trust much more in their sense than some of these hack journos. 

[Max Fowler]

4 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

But he went because the owners couldn't find a way to get on with him. That was obvious at the time, and I'd hope even his biggest critics at the time can now see that is the case and that it was not results. Boehly, in his own way, was at least honest about that. 

Whether or not that was Tuchel's fault though is another question.

Personally, I think Boehly should have come in like an open book and said to Tuchel - What can we give you? What do you need? How can we make the culture work for you? Seemingly that is what is going on at Man City with Guardiola.

Instead they came with new business ideas, inherited from their experience with American sports, while not really understanding anything about football and how important it is to have an elite level personality at the top of the club.

Potter is brilliant at being collaborative, responding to WhatsApp messages 3 x a day, not calling out players in press conferences etc. But what if all that has no impact at all when it comes to actually winning for Chelsea Football Club?

I think there's a very slim chance that Potter really is given the time and proves his worth. Likely though - and unlike with baseball - no data will make up for his mentality which may cut it at Brighton but simply doesn't at the highest level.

 

[Mark Kelly]

The more I'm reading in the press , and the Mail are now echoing the sentiment of the Telegraph , the more I think we're stuck with him regardless.

I can get that we "should" have scored against Southampton given the amount of chances we created.

I can understand that maybe he genuinely felt he needed to protect James from re-occurring injury , not that I agree but 

something just doesn't feel right , the chopping and changing of personnel , the fact he's giving players days off who desperately need condition training.

One of the most annoying things is the utter nonsense the OCWS are coming out with in his defence and gormless player interviews where they all "put their hands up" to the fact they should be doing better and opine they're going to "work hard" and then Potter gives them two days off its infuriating.

I also understand that TB and mates believe that  maybe the fans of the club are too emotionally invested to make reasonable decisions but at some point I feel things are going to start getting nasty at the Bridge and nobody is going to enjoy that.

[Ham]

2 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The more I'm reading in the press , and the Mail are now echoing the sentiment of the Telegraph , the more I think we're stuck with him regardless.

I can get that we "should" have scored against Southampton given the amount of chances we created.

I can understand that maybe he genuinely felt he needed to protect James from re-occurring injury , not that I agree but 

something just doesn't feel right , the chopping and changing of personnel , the fact he's giving players days off who desperately need condition training.

One of the most annoying things is the utter nonsense the OCWS are coming out with in his defence and gormless player interviews where they all "put their hands up" to the fact they should be doing better and opine they're going to "work hard" and then Potter gives them two days off its infuriating.

I also understand that TB and mates believe that  maybe the fans of the club are too emotionally invested to make reasonable decisions but at some point I feel things are going to start getting nasty at the Bridge and nobody is going to enjoy that.

As much as GP deserves everything he's getting, I can't help but believe that the players are getting too much of an easy ride.

Regardless of how much, or little coaching this squad has had, they have gone out, 11v11 on numerous occasions this season and should have won the game.

This is particularly the case since we got everyone back and added supposed quality. Southampton was the lowest point. 

They are equally to blame, if not more so.  I've used the word "spineless" on the match day forum so many times in the past 5 years. It's a recurring theme.

 

[Trini_Blue]

These new owners really disliked Tuchel, didn't they? 

Let's hope they're right about Potter and things turn around on the weekend. 

Potter must be kicking himself. Left a comfortable job at Brighton to come fight this battle - bloated squad, a club with enormously high expectations, a long track record of sacking the manager after a couple bad results, a number of new players trying to settle in, supporters pining for Tuchel, reporters asking him uncomfortable questions regarding his ability.. who'd want to be a manager, eh?

 

[RDCW]

2 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

These new owners really disliked Tuchel, didn't they? 

Let's hope they're right about Potter and things turn around on the weekend. 

Potter must be kicking himself. Left a comfortable job at Brighton to come fight this battle - bloated squad, a club with enormously high expectations, a long track record of sacking the manager after a couple bad results, a number of new players trying to settle in, supporters pining for Tuchel, reporters asking him uncomfortable questions regarding his ability.. who'd want to be a manager, eh?

 

At £12,000,000 a year, I would have a pop at it!

[Mark Kelly]

18 minutes ago, Ham said:

 

They are equally to blame, if not more so.  I've used the word "spineless" on the match day forum so many times in the past 5 years. It's a recurring theme.

 

I believe this is partly due to the drip drip effect refereeing from the PGMOL , every game we see , spoiling , kicking , pulling , handball against us go completely unnoticed , the MINUTE we respond we're booked , every single game.

I knew what we could expect the moment the PGMOL hand picked the ref for this game , when there's the slimmest possibility we could rack up a cricket score , we get the pernickety referee , if we're facing a side fighting for their lives we get the one eyed ref who only sees us as offending , if we're away in a partizan atmosphere we'll get a homer ref easily cowed into letting the home support referee the game.

Who have we got for the Spurs game ? I'd bet it will be Anthony Taylor , guaranteed to cause a riot and then we'll get a points deduction having been manhandled by Spurs once again.

The players are indeed spineless but they're conditioned to be.

[east lower]

18 minutes ago, Ham said:

As much as GP deserves everything he's getting, I can't help but believe that the players are getting too much of an easy ride.

Regardless of how much, or little coaching this squad has had, they have gone out, 11v11 on numerous occasions this season and should have won the game.

This is particularly the case since we got everyone back and added supposed quality. Southampton was the lowest point. 

They are equally to blame, if not more so.  I've used the word "spineless" on the match day forum so many times in the past 5 years. It's a recurring theme.

 

Professional footballer’s are trained to follow instructions and generally do, even when they don’t agree. If they don’t do as ordered they get dropped. I know two ex-PL players and both have said this to me. That’s why I tend to have tolerance, as a lot of the time they follow instructions.

I look at the leaked squad info that went out on Friday, Chilwell’s comments today and I think the players have sussed this coach and his coaches out. They know he’s a dud, quickest way out is to do what he says because we know that the manager will go first.

[Max Fowler]

46 minutes ago, Ham said:

As much as GP deserves everything he's getting, I can't help but believe that the players are getting too much of an easy ride.

Regardless of how much, or little coaching this squad has had, they have gone out, 11v11 on numerous occasions this season and should have won the game.

This is particularly the case since we got everyone back and added supposed quality. Southampton was the lowest point. 

They are equally to blame, if not more so.  I've used the word "spineless" on the match day forum so many times in the past 5 years. It's a recurring theme.

 

The players also let the previous manager down. Unfortunately there are certain levels which the manager has to be able to get out of the players. Where performances under Tuchel had stagnated, results have fallen off a cliff for months now under Potter.

[Max Fowler]

It actually worries me deeply that Potter was so clearly Boehly's man - because, as happy as I am to have Todd in charge - though he has a lot to learn, he has proved that he knew absolutely nothing about football coming into our club. 

[Mark Kelly]

As an aside , hows this for a statistic: 

Chelsea have scored one goal from their last seventy nine shots. 

And the player to get that goal is only on loan.

[Blue Moon]

5 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

It actually worries me deeply that Potter was so clearly Boehly's man - because, as happy as I am to have Todd in charge - though he has a lot to learn, he has proved that he knew absolutely nothing about football coming into our club. 

Agreed - 12 men in a team, auto-entry into the CL .... whatever will he say next? Rename the East Stand "the Cemetary Side"? Propose two referees on the pitch, and add yard labels and hash marks to the field of play?

1 minute ago, Mark Kelly said:

As an aside, hows this for a statistic: 

Chelsea have scored one goal from their last seventy nine shots. 

And the player to get that goal is only on loan.

That is truly agonising - I so wish you'd kept that to yourself.

[Bison]

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/02/20/five-reasons-chelsea-have-not-sacked-graham-potter-yet/

May be of interest. 

I don't think Potter should be here (now, or at any point since September) but can accept there is some logic to some of these positions. Some, though, are completely wrong headed and the sort of nonsense conclusions you only come to with a nonsense starting point. The idea that Potter deserves a pre-season rather than "paying the price for problems he inherited", for example. Potter did not inherit a relegation form team. Not even close, and I don't think even the fiercest Tuchel critic would suggest that was the trajectory we were on under him. That problem is very clearly one he has made a significant contribution towards, if not been the sole architect of.

I think we all have to accept he is not going anywhere this season. The only thing I can imagine shifting that is our relegation form is matched by our position in the table.

I stopped at the sub-heading which reads:

"Chelsea co-controlling owners Todd Boehly and Behdad Eghbali remain supportive and have noted Potter's work behind the scenes"

Why do the players look so badly coached if this is true? Why doesn't this work translate onto the football pitch?

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

As much as GP deserves everything he's getting, I can't help but believe that the players are getting too much of an easy ride.

Regardless of how much, or little coaching this squad has had, they have gone out, 11v11 on numerous occasions this season and should have won the game.

This is particularly the case since we got everyone back and added supposed quality. Southampton was the lowest point. 

They are equally to blame, if not more so.  I've used the word "spineless" on the match day forum so many times in the past 5 years. It's a recurring theme.

 

Definitely agree. At times with football, it can be very over simplified, and at times it cab be made over complicated too. The reality lies somewhere in the middle. For all the over complications and simplifications, including tactics / coaching from a manager, a return of 4 goals scored in 10 games is pathetic!

The whole point of football is to score goals. This is a squad of 25-30 internationals from some major nations, who have spent all their childhood, teenage, and professional careers to date, scoring and trying to score goals.

In 900 minutes of football, they have managed to successfully achieve the whole purpose of the game on four occasions.

The manager is very open to criticism and shares his part in that, but the players should be so embarrassed and ashamed by this.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Thiago97
We could extend that out to 15 games.....we will have a paltry return of 6 goals!

[Bob Singleton]

I wasn't able to read the Telegraph article as it's behind a paywall, but I did read the one in the Mail...
 

❝Training and analysis have been described as 'excellent' while key decisions - like the one to exclude Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang from their Champions League squad - were taken after consultation with the board. 

The 47-year-old was criticised for deciding to rest stars such as Reece James, Thiago Silva and Raheem Sterling against Southampton but the owners were aware of why he selected that team beforehand.

Potter was reportedly told that James, Silva, Kai Havertz, Sterling and Mykhailo Mudryk were all at serious risk of injury and that selfless call has been recognised by Boehly and Eghbali.❞


Somehow I can't ever imagine Mourinho, Ancelotti, Conte, Sarri, or indeed ANY previous Chelsea manager - even "interims" like Rafa or Hiddink - ever contacting Abramovich and saying "... look boss, I'm leaving JT, Lamps and Willian out of the game at the weekend because I think they need a rest... is that OK?"

🙄 🙄

[Ham]

34 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

As an aside , hows this for a statistic: 

Chelsea have scored one goal from their last seventy nine shots. 

And the player to get that goal is only on loan.

Funny that because in the videos on TOCWS from training, they score EVERY SINGLE TIME!

🤷🏻‍♂️

[chara]

Complicated time for me so not too much to say except...

One of the things that annoy and irritate me is the lack of relegation threat in the top sports here. imho it holds back MLS from developing .

My Sports Mindset is competitive with the relegation issues bring tension at any level.

I don't believe Todd and Co are stupid and the Media sniffy "Yanks" etc agenda takes a lot of things out of context.

Without the lifelong relegation penalties as in most sports the US sports fans owners etc have no inbuilt understanding or trepidation of the system.

Coming last in the system here means probably a new coach and a clean sheet next season...here it's DISASTER.

[FrankLampard8]

The only merit in keeping Potter at this point is the lack of viable alternatives. I just can't see an way he manages to turn this around - at least not enough to keep his job long term, so what is the point?

[DannyLB]

9 minutes ago, FrankLampard8 said:

The only merit in keeping Potter at this point is the lack of viable alternatives. I just can't see an way he manages to turn this around - at least not enough to keep his job long term, so what is the point?

I for one believe Luis Enrique would be perfect for us and for this project. He's available...

[flllerywhereru2]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

I think if the atmosphere continues to turn against him with continued bad results - anything could happen. Boehly is apparently in touch with the fanbase and if it continues to turn increasingly hostile anything could happen.

I wasn't able to read The Telegraph article but I suspect some Chelsea fans frustration might be the perceived bias Potter is getting from British journalists. Example - Nizaar Kinsella keeps complaining about the hostility Chelsea fans are showing towards Potter but now has only barely started recognizing how bad things have gotten on the pitch.

It feels like the British journalists - and Potter himself - are ignoring the Chelsea fans and their own intuition about what is going on on the pitch and in the press conferences. The fans are being looked down on even though they are the ones who live and die by the club and I would trust much more in their sense than some of these hack journos. 

I think the journos and overall media feel we have no right to expect a team that challenges and somehow the club overall and not just abramovich deserved to be sactioned. I think they see it as a way of putting Chelsea back in their rightful place, of course ignoring that that we have been a top 6 club for around 30 years now. Its like they feel that middling is right for Chelsea and therefor Potter is perfect. All the talk of long term projects etc is a smokescreen, for all the talk of him doing well at Brighton (he did relatively) his win ratio was only 31%!! Looking at last season which people took notice of it was a touch better at 36% win rate, but they struggled to score, drew an awful lot and lost almost as many as they won.  I think his reputation has been built on a handful of good results against Liverpool, Arsenal and spurs all of which they won by one goal plus draws against Chelsea.

 

I was all for giving him a chance and still hope he improves but this promising coach thing is built on false facts to an extent.

[Max Fowler]

11 minutes ago, FrankLampard8 said:

The only merit in keeping Potter at this point is the lack of viable alternatives. I just can't see an way he manages to turn this around - at least not enough to keep his job long term, so what is the point?

We've been here before and sometimes getting an interim at least wipes the slate clean.

I would be more concerned that we double down over a period of 12-18 months - where surely we have to pick up some results, but ultimately build around a project that was doomed to fail in the first place.

It is pretty worrying that Boehly seems completely unmoved by what is going on.