Chelsea Sack Graham Potter

[martin1905]

Other than Ferguson and Guardiola has anyone ever had long term success in this league?

Liverpool and the mighty Klopp have won it once.

Jose built a team, a structure, a mentality that did have prolonged success even if he wasn't here to oversee it.

[martin1905]

The foundation for Munich was built by Jose a long time before we got there.

[Max Fowler]

5 minutes ago, Phoenix Blue said:

That is the most short sighted view I think I have read up to now, its called instant gratification without any thought of the long term viability and success of our club.

Mind boggling!!

You kidding?
It's worked for us before incredibly well over the best part of 20 years. Not saying I wouldn't prefer a long-term appointment but winning titles isn't nothing and if the Abramovich model still works, what's the problem?

[Thiago97]

7 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

The foundation for Munich was built by Jose a long time before we got there.

I'm certain he would agree

[Phoenix Blue]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

You kidding?
It's worked for us before incredibly well over the best part of 20 years. Not saying I wouldn't prefer a long-term appointment but winning titles isn't nothing and if the Abramovich model still works, what's the problem?

What's the problem!!

Please, this Chelsea team has not looked like winning the title since Conte did. In fact apart from CL this team was made up of a mishmash of players that were the result of the hire and fire system. As a fan since the beginning of the sixties I loved it, but because of what I said above about falling behind in what I think is the benchmark of a successful team is always looking like we can we the Prem. 

So this short termism over the past 20 years had to end, and now we are where we are starting this rebuild far too late but better now than not at all.

By the way this has nothing to do with whether Potter is the right person to do it

[jasonb]

Conte only managed it for one season when we were not in Europe and he changed the formation. 

 

[Trini_Blue]

Well, I disagree that its going to take a long run of wins to get the supporters back in line.

A win over Spurs, for instance, with a solid performance and I think we would see the mood beginning to change. A Champions league run could really help rebuild some faith in Potter. 

I mean, the performances haven't been as shambolic as the 3-0 loss to United under Scolari, or the performances under AVB in the end. 

We've been missing chances. I saw on Sky yesterday I believe that we've got an xG of 8 or something and we only scored 1! That right there is the problem.

The reports of the crisis talks isn't good for Potter. I just don't see how a meeting is going to make players NOT miss open chances. 

Potter has to find a more medium term solution. Kai Havertz as CF aint it. Maybe eat some humble pie and reintegrate Auba perhaps. Or hope Fofana hits goal scoring form.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Trini_Blue

[Max Fowler]

13 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

Well, I disagree that its going to take a long run of wins to get the supporters back in line.

A win over Spurs, for instance, with a solid performance and I think we would see the mood beginning to change. A Champions league run could really help rebuild some faith in Potter. 

I mean, the performances haven't been as shambolic as the 3-0 loss to United under Scolari, or the performances under AVB in the end. 

We've been missing chances. I saw on Sky yesterday I believe that we've got an xG of 8 or something and we only scored 1! That right there is the problem.

The reports of the crisis talks isn't good for Potter. I just don't see how a meeting is going to make players NOT miss open chances. 

Potter has to find a more medium term solution. Kai Havertz as CF aint it. Maybe eat some humble pie and reintegrate Auba perhaps. Or hope Fofana hits goal scoring form.

 

We've been better in terms of chance creation but still nowhere near good enough.

We've gone round in circles for months with this - supporters are getting sick of waiting for a single victory to appease the board and then go for another seven games without winning.

Do you really think we can beat Spurs in our current moment? I don't see it happening.

And seeing as you like "ifs" - IF we lose to Spurs, all hell will break loose.

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

You want short term success then. That's fair enough, not really knocking it. It would be the reality of the situation though.

On this and this ...

1 hour ago, Phoenix Blue said:

That is the most short sighted view I think I have read up to now, its called instant gratification without any thought of the long term viability and success of our club.

Mind boggling!!

Personally reckon Mourinho is passed guaranteed short-term success at this point, so not interested in him coming back at all (although he hasn't and never did taint his legacy here for me in the way he has for others, still love the guy).

Looks like @martin1905 asked, but what is the long-term alternative to "instant gratification"? The "long term viability" of the club depends massively on results and success in the short term (especially if we're defining short term to include the next 1 or 2 years), so I'd not be so haughty about a "short sighted view". Just one or two years without e.g. CL qualification or a cup trophy will have significant implications for what we are likely to be able to do and achieve in the years following that. I'd be careful of framing recognition of that as a form of entitlement. Besides which, long term projects based around a single coach are vanishingly rare in modern, elite football. Most long term strategies are about infrastructure, throughput from academies to senior teams, sophisticated scouting that keeps you a step ahead of rivals, top-to-bottom organisational culture. Coaches come and go. Add on to this the fact that no project (hate myself for using the word!) is going to be able to consistently match Man City and in time Newcastle, anyway. These teams have the resource to rejuvenate and rebuild every year. The only viable option for any other club is to yo-yo. Put together a side and then, just as it is ready to peak, putting the right coach in place to push and flog for results for the relatively brief time that team has it in them to compete, and then start again. I think we're seeing Liverpool at the end of that cycle now, and Arsenal at the peak of it. We're hopefully at the start.

Really the head coach should be somewhat disposable to any long term plan. After all, they come and go.

Edited February 22, 2023 by thevelourfog

[martin1905]

21 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

Well, I disagree that its going to take a long run of wins to get the supporters back in line.

A win over Spurs, for instance, with a solid performance and I think we would see the mood beginning to change. A Champions league run could really help rebuild some faith in Potter. 

Maybe but the chances of either are slim. 

Our last 6 away games we have won 0 drawn 3 lost 3 scored 3.

There is a chance against Dortmund, certainly our best performances under Potter have been in Europe but just going by our current form, and theirs it's hugely unlikely we get through.

21 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

I mean, the performances haven't been as shambolic as the 3-0 loss to United under Scolari, or the performances under AVB in the end. 

Possibly not as shambolic in terms of individual performances but both were miles better than Potter but obviously expectations were completely different back then.

21 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

We've been missing chances. I saw on Sky yesterday I believe that we've got an xG of 8 or something and we only scored 1! That right there is the problem.

Have no idea what XG means, never have and never will as I have no interest but the problems are plural and far more than just not scoring goals.

21 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

The reports of the crisis talks isn't good for Potter. I just don't see how a meeting is going to make players NOT miss open chances. 

 

21 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

Potter has to find a more medium term solution. Kai Havertz as CF aint it. Maybe eat some humble pie and reintegrate Auba perhaps. Or hope Fofana hits goal scoring form.

Maybe playing him might let him do this, he's played 115 minutes since 1st January and got hooked off at half time in his one and only start, still at a loss as to why. 

[Trini_Blue]

17 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Do you really think we can beat Spurs in our current moment? I don't see it happening.

And seeing as you like "ifs" - IF we lose to Spurs, all hell will break loose.

I don't see why we can't beat Spurs. Reece James and Silva coming back. We convert a chance into a goal and we could be in business. 

"If we lose to Spurs all hell will break loose" - I thought that happened already on Saturday? You mean you guys can become even more dramatic?

[Trini_Blue]

2 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Maybe playing him might let him do this, he's played 115 minutes since 1st January and got hooked off at half time in his one and only start, still at a loss as to why. 

I have no idea why Auba has been cast off. Even if you look at it from the aspect that he's gone in the summer - we still paid money for him and are paying him a salary. Even if there's some sort of a bonus in play here if he plays a certain # of games it still doesn't make sense.

[Mark Kelly]

6 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

I don't see why we can't beat Spurs. Reece James and Silva coming back. We convert a chance into a goal and we could be in business. 

"If we lose to Spurs all hell will break loose" - I thought that happened already on Saturday? You mean you guys can become even more dramatic?

The biggest issue here I feel is that Reece appears to have been instructed not to overlap the winger , it may just be me being an idiot but it looks like he's not being given free reign to attack our opponents box. 

[Max Fowler]

9 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

I have no idea why Auba has been cast off. Even if you look at it from the aspect that he's gone in the summer - we still paid money for him and are paying him a salary. Even if there's some sort of a bonus in play here if he plays a certain # of games it still doesn't make sense.

Because he was a Tuchel signing and likely isn't training well. Potter won't say that out loud.
He's definitely leaving in the summer according to Romano.

[Max Fowler]

3 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The biggest issue here I feel is that Reece appears to have been instructed not to overlap the winger , it may just be me being an idiot but it looks like he's not being given free reign to attack our opponents box. 

It's also because we are playing 4 at the back not 5 with wingbacks.

[McCreadie]

4 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The biggest issue here I feel is that Reece appears to have been instructed not to overlap the winger , it may just be me being an idiot but it looks like he's not being given free reign to attack our opponents box. 

I read that as a combination of a change to a 4 more often, which I am pretty sure happened since he was injured and the fact he is still not quite confident in his fitness.

[Max Fowler]

13 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

I don't see why we can't beat Spurs. Reece James and Silva coming back. We convert a chance into a goal and we could be in business. 

"If we lose to Spurs all hell will break loose" - I thought that happened already on Saturday? You mean you guys can become even more dramatic?

Well he should have been fired after that result. Absolutely 100%. 

But you can't just keep saying "We can win this game and then we'll be back in business!"

Losing to Southampton (H) without a manager is bad enough under any circumstance.

As part of a 15 game run with only 2 victories, it's beyond the pail.

We are in the same situation with Spurs. Every bad result that continues this terrible run makes things worse.

You can't just say "we can win this game" and then the fans will be turned around.

I think without a remarkable turnaround in results and performances the fans are done with Potter. 

And it will only get worse. We are sick of being told he can turn things around.

[Mark Kelly]

10 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

It's also because we are playing 4 at the back not 5 with wingbacks.

 

7 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

I read that as a combination of a change to a 4 more often, which I am pretty sure happened since he was injured and the fact he is still not quite confident in his fitness.

Well , when the change to a back four actively hampers our play and essentially negates the efficacy of our best player I find it an odd thing to do . It just suggest once more that we've written this season off entirely and they want to use this time to transition back to a back four and get the players comfortable for next season .

If when RJ and BC feel more comfortable in their recoveries they then play in a back four and also manage to combine properly with their wingers then fine. 

[Holymoly]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

The foundation for Munich was built by Jose a long time before we got there.

I agree however Jose is no longer the same coach. I fear that rather like modern day players much of the spark has left managers. It's now a PR led, executive role and you need an experienced team of coaches beneath you to do the dirty work.

[Holymoly]

2 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Well , when the change to a back four actively hampers our play and essentially negates the efficacy of our best player I find it an odd thing to do .

I've been banging on about this for ages. I don't care if three at the back is no longer flavour of the month, it is the main way we score goals. Fine if others in midfield take up the slack and contribute to the scoring but they don't. I'd rather see us with world class wing backs causing the opposition problems than playing with average full backs just to satisfy the preferred 4-4-3 (sic) tactic.

[Ham]

1 hour ago, Trini_Blue said:

Well, I disagree that its going to take a long run of wins to get the supporters back in line.

A win over Spurs, for instance, with a solid performance and I think we would see the mood beginning to change. A Champions league run could really help rebuild some faith in Potter. 

I mean, the performances haven't been as shambolic as the 3-0 loss to United under Scolari, or the performances under AVB in the end. 

We've been missing chances. I saw on Sky yesterday I believe that we've got an xG of 8 or something and we only scored 1! That right there is the problem.

The reports of the crisis talks isn't good for Potter. I just don't see how a meeting is going to make players NOT miss open chances. 

Potter has to find a more medium term solution. Kai Havertz as CF aint it. Maybe eat some humble pie and reintegrate Auba perhaps. Or hope Fofana hits goal scoring form.

Auba absolutely has to be given a chance. He still looks in great shape and has already proven his PL credentials.  Fofana#2 off the bench (or vice versa). 

[McCreadie]

21 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

 

Well , when the change to a back four actively hampers our play and essentially negates the efficacy of our best player I find it an odd thing to do . It just suggest once more that we've written this season off entirely and they want to use this time to transition back to a back four and get the players comfortable for next season .

If when RJ and BC feel more comfortable in their recoveries they then play in a back four and also manage to combine properly with their wingers then fine. 

 

15 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

I've been banging on about this for ages. I don't care if three at the back is no longer flavour of the month, it is the main way we score goals. Fine if others in midfield take up the slack and contribute to the scoring but they don't. I'd rather see us with world class wing backs causing the opposition problems than playing with average full backs just to satisfy the preferred 4-4-3 (sic) tactic.

To be fair, from memory, we only had Cucurella, Hall and Azpi fit at the point we went to a 4. None of those are natural wing backs (at least one of them is not a natural full back either!) and with injuries to Fofana and later Koulibaly, we did not even really have the personnel to play a 5... I dont see there was much choice. 

I think the longer term move to a 4, is in order to re-imagine our forward play, so that it does not rely wholly on James and Chilwell to work. That reliance has unluckily cost us dearly for the last 2 seasons. Once we get a proper DM, I imagine they will both attack much as before. 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by McCreadie

[Max Fowler]

I guarantee that the like of Kovacic, Aubameyang etc. are not happy right now.

Would be interested to know who exactly is in either camp - I sense some quite like Potter (Kepa, Mount, James, Pulisic etc.) but I'd vouch that at least Koulibaly, Mendy, Thiago Silva too don't rate the guy.

https://chelseafc365.com/sources-chelsea-dressing-room-split-sections-disinterested-with-life-under-graham-potter/

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

I guarantee that the like of Kovacic, Aubameyang etc. are not happy right now.

Would be interested to know who exactly is in either camp - I sense some quite like Potter (Kepa, Mount, James, Pulisic etc.) but I'd vouch that at least Koulibaly, Mendy, Thiago Silva too don't rate the guy.

https://chelseafc365.com/sources-chelsea-dressing-room-split-sections-disinterested-with-life-under-graham-potter/

Interesting because my sources told me that they were told that Potter is staying at least until the end of next season regardless.

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

On this and this ...

Personally reckon Mourinho is passed guaranteed short-term success at this point, so not interested in him coming back at all (although he hasn't and never did taint his legacy here for me in the way he has for others, still love the guy).

Looks like @martin1905 asked, but what is the long-term alternative to "instant gratification"? The "long term viability" of the club depends massively on results and success in the short term (especially if we're defining short term to include the next 1 or 2 years), so I'd not be so haughty about a "short sighted view". Just one or two years without e.g. CL qualification or a cup trophy will have significant implications for what we are likely to be able to do and achieve in the years following that. I'd be careful of framing recognition of that as a form of entitlement. Besides which, long term projects based around a single coach are vanishingly rare in modern, elite football. Most long term strategies are about infrastructure, throughput from academies to senior teams, sophisticated scouting that keeps you a step ahead of rivals, top-to-bottom organisational culture. Coaches come and go. Add on to this the fact that no project (hate myself for using the word!) is going to be able to consistently match Man City and in time Newcastle, anyway. These teams have the resource to rejuvenate and rebuild every year. The only viable option for any other club is to yo-yo. Put together a side and then, just as it is ready to peak, putting the right coach in place to push and flog for results for the relatively brief time that team has it in them to compete, and then start again. I think we're seeing Liverpool at the end of that cycle now, and Arsenal at the peak of it. We're hopefully at the start.

Really the head coach should be somewhat disposable to any long term plan. After all, they come and go.

Yep. Don't disagree with this. I was probably a bit clumsy in framing my discussion on Mourinho around shirt term success.

I think there is a relative short term upside that Jose brings, but you are right. It is more the set up and infrastructure that is important, and the coach more of a commodity.

Specifically on Mourinho though. I think the baggage outweighs the short term success uplift he undoubtedly provides. There are other managers out there who may offer the same impact as Mourinho, without the issues and baggage that will crash through the club in those 2 years.