Chelsea Sack Graham Potter

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

Shame you were not a betting person, with that kind of insight you would have got better odd for the team not winning the PL. 

I my memory severs me. I believe we’re we’re favourites to win the PL at the start of the season. 

About 5/1 11/2 joint second favs with Liverpool for that season. City were still short priced favourites at about 8/13 

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, jasonb said:

 

Under Tuchel last season we could not beat Utd, Liverpool, City or Brighton in the league..........

Under team GP the club have not beaten any teams above them and lost to quite a few teams below. 
 

your point is?

Edited February 23, 2023 by ROTG

[exiledblue]

5 hours ago, Trini_Blue said:

I saw Tuchel lose twice in finals against Klopp last year, and City did the double over us in the league as well.. 

Compete with Guardiola and Klopp - "compete" is a strong word.

Saw him get smashed embarrassingly in a pre-season game against Arsenal on live TV, and smashed at home last April against Arsenal too!

Tuchel's a good coach, but he's no prime Mourinho, Guardiola or even Klopp.

Is he a better coach than Potter? Right now it looks that way.

But "only a #9 away" from challenging? Please don't make me laugh. 

To win a league title in the England you have to be a truly top level coach. We've seen that with Mourinho, Ancelotti and Conte. Tuchel, with all due respect to him, never hammered out a tactical system as efficient and consistent as those coaches did. 

I mean, Mourinho literally returned to Chelsea almost a decade later and walked the league AGAIN. Conte won the league with an even more moody striker than Lukaku, with Pedro, Willian and Victor Moses at RWB ffs. A squad that had massively underachieved too and Fabregas was on the bench a lot.

And if people recall, under Carlo the diamond/4-3-2-1 with Ballack, Lamps, Deco (sometimes), Mikel, Anelka, Drogs and Malouda was brilliant. At that time, there were question marks over Ballack, Deco, Malouda and even Anelka. Carlo literally found a way to mould them into a system and challenge prime-SAF.

Look, Tuchel had a good UCL win but if people want to suggest he was on an upward trajectory they're being funny.

Klopp beat us in 2 finals on pens and they were a supposedly quadruple chasing super team.

City Have had 2 players in every position nad have for years. I am not a Pep fan but with that dept they should win everything every year.

TT did us proud and I would have him back in a heart beat. Jose is smoke and mirrors...no thanks

[Trini_Blue]

22 minutes ago, exiledblue said:

Klopp beat us in 2 finals on pens and they were a supposedly quadruple chasing super team.

City Have had 2 players in every position nad have for years. I am not a Pep fan but with that dept they should win everything every year.

TT did us proud and I would have him back in a heart beat. Jose is smoke and mirrors...no thanks

SAF beat Avram Grant on penalties. Was Avram an elite manager? 

TT did indeed do very well winning the UCL. So did RDM for us. 

I'm not calling for Jose's return - quite the opposite actually. And in a sense I can understand the goodwill Tuchel had in the bank because he was a beacon at the club during the sanction period.

But this is Potter's time at the club now and all I'm seeing on twitter everyday is about how impressive Tuchel was - when he wasn't.

Potter being poor right now doesn't mean that Tuchel was doing very well. And, if by some small chance Potter's time here begins to shape up and we get a title challenge next year (better yet a title win), I'll go as far to say he would have surpassed Tuchel here. Because, at the end of the day, we've had 3 amazing managers who set that standard. 

IMO, a title challenge is far more impressive than any cup won because it would mean that for an entire year you could turn the tv on and watch Chelsea play 8 or 9 times out of 10 and not have them ruin your entire weekend. That, IMO, is the mark of a great coach. Someone who coached a team into a system that could win you matches in a very tough league on a consistent basis.

[ROTG]

2 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

Potter being poor right now doesn't mean that Tuchel was doing very well. And, if by some small chance Potter's time here begins to shape up and we get a title challenge next year (better yet a title win), I'll go as far to say he would have surpassed Tuchel here.

So you believe that Team GP has the skill sets to coach a team to +75 points for a CL spot or +85 points to win the PL next season or any season????

[chara]

36 minutes ago, ROTG said:

So you believe that Team GP has the skill sets to coach a team to +75 points for a CL spot or +85 points to win the PL next season or any season????

No.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Trini_Blue said:

SAF beat Avram Grant on penalties. Was Avram an elite manager? 

TT did indeed do very well winning the UCL. So did RDM for us. 

I'm not calling for Jose's return - quite the opposite actually. And in a sense I can understand the goodwill Tuchel had in the bank because he was a beacon at the club during the sanction period.

But this is Potter's time at the club now and all I'm seeing on twitter everyday is about how impressive Tuchel was - when he wasn't.

Potter being poor right now doesn't mean that Tuchel was doing very well. And, if by some small chance Potter's time here begins to shape up and we get a title challenge next year (better yet a title win), I'll go as far to say he would have surpassed Tuchel here. Because, at the end of the day, we've had 3 amazing managers who set that standard. 

IMO, a title challenge is far more impressive than any cup won because it would mean that for an entire year you could turn the tv on and watch Chelsea play 8 or 9 times out of 10 and not have them ruin your entire weekend. That, IMO, is the mark of a great coach. Someone who coached a team into a system that could win you matches in a very tough league on a consistent basis.

Absolute nonsense. Not worth the energy to reply. Printing this and using it as loo roll because I’ve ran out and Ham hasn’t posted much lately. 

[RDCW]

10 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Absolute nonsense. Not worth the energy to reply. Printing this and using it as loo roll because I’ve ran out and Ham hasn’t posted much lately. 

And yet here you are, replying 🤣

Edited February 23, 2023 by RDCW

[Ham]

25 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Absolute nonsense. Not worth the energy to reply. Printing this and using it as loo roll because I’ve ran out and Ham hasn’t posted much lately. 

Another opinion = absolute nonsense. Gotcha. 

 

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, Trini_Blue said:

SAF beat Avram Grant on penalties. Was Avram an elite manager? 

TT did indeed do very well winning the UCL. So did RDM for us. 

I'm not calling for Jose's return - quite the opposite actually. And in a sense I can understand the goodwill Tuchel had in the bank because he was a beacon at the club during the sanction period.

But this is Potter's time at the club now and all I'm seeing on twitter everyday is about how impressive Tuchel was - when he wasn't.

Potter being poor right now doesn't mean that Tuchel was doing very well. And, if by some small chance Potter's time here begins to shape up and we get a title challenge next year (better yet a title win), I'll go as far to say he would have surpassed Tuchel here. Because, at the end of the day, we've had 3 amazing managers who set that standard. 

IMO, a title challenge is far more impressive than any cup won because it would mean that for an entire year you could turn the tv on and watch Chelsea play 8 or 9 times out of 10 and not have them ruin your entire weekend. That, IMO, is the mark of a great coach. Someone who coached a team into a system that could win you matches in a very tough league on a consistent basis.

Colour me a little perplexed at how you can come around to the notion that Tuchel wasn't impressive. Was he perfect? Not at all. What he did do was arrive and set the tone early, we improved and were actually able to compete with the best sides even if we didn't necessarily have the same overall quality. Why? Because he's an excellent manager with tactical acumen. Unfortunately, he was also let down by too many floundering players that've hardly gone on to excel since his departure - one could make a good argue that they've even regressed.

You can't just dismiss Tuchel's cup runs either, which is seemingly what you're doing by stating a league challenge is far more impressive. And sure, it is in the grand discussion. Competing over 38 weeks is always a testament to how good a side is, but we never really had a side during Tuchel's tenure that was ever realistically going to challenge for a title, therefore progressing far and aiming to win cups was the next best thing - which we did, and we were unlucky not to maybe engrave our name on a couple more. 

Put it this way, if you were to reverse the roles and place Potter at the helm of when Tuchel arrived I'd guarantee you we'd have had none of the success we did. While if Tuchel was the one replacing Potter at the beginning of this season I'd have zero doubts we'd be in a far better position than we currently find ourselves in - with a lot more optimism of possibly reaching another CL final. 

Overall I just find it a bit strange to dismiss someone as a "great coach" because they didn't mount a title challenge despite never having the tools on hand to truly do so. 

[Trini_Blue]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

 Overall I just find it a bit strange to dismiss someone as a "great coach" because they didn't mount a title challenge despite never having the tools on hand to truly do so. 

I'm just comparing him to what came before him. He followed some great coaches under RA. 

You ask about Potter, but I'm not comparing Potter to Tuchel in that regard. Nice try. I'm comparing Tuchel to the guys before him who were champions. 

To me, there's no shame in saying Tuchel was a good but not great manager who sits alongside RDM as being successful.

If Potter gets fired tomorrow then yes his time at the club is over and we can label him, sadly, a failure. And I've got no problem calling him a failure.

But, like I've said, if Potter gets his business in order and Boehly keeps him around and next season we come out and perform well week-in and week-out then I'm afraid Potter moves ahead of Tuchel for me. And I believe that would be fair. 

The question is if Chelsea supporters would view it that way.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Trini_Blue

[xceleryx]

56 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

I'm just comparing him to what came before him. He followed some great coaches under RA. 

You ask about Potter, but I'm not comparing Potter to Tuchel in that regard. Nice try. I'm comparing Tuchel to the guys before him who were champions. 

To me, there's no shame in saying Tuchel was a good but not great manager who sits alongside RDM as being successful.

If Potter gets fired tomorrow then yes his time at the club is over and we can label him, sadly, a failure. And I've got no problem calling him a failure.

But, like I've said, if Potter gets his business in order and Boehly keeps him around and next season we come out and perform well week-in and week-out then I'm afraid Potter moves ahead of Tuchel for me. And I believe that would be fair. 

The question is if Chelsea supporters would view it that way.

Tuchel was never blessed with a squad that had enough high quality components to genuinely challenge for a title in the first place, unlike the others before him that were champions. If we gave Tuchel the same squad that a Mourinho or Ancelotti had for example, then it would be disingenuous to suggest Tuchel also couldn't replicate what they produced in the league - he is certainly a good enough manager to do it. This is why I struggle to wrap my head around what you've put forward. 

How can you dismiss a manager being "great" when a lot of it also hinges on the tools he has at hand to utilise. Tuchel was absolutely great in what he managed to do with what he had at his disposal. It may not have necessarily shown in the league, but we were never a side equipped to compete on that front. This is why our focus was on the cup competitions and we excelled in this department under TT. 

Hang on a second here let me make sure I understand this correctly, are you suggesting that if Potter "gets his business in order" (whatever that entails), and merely has the side performing well week-in, week-out, then he automatically sits ahead of a manger that achieved our highest league finish since 2018/19, made two domestic cup finals, a Champions League Quarter-Final and won both the Super Cup and CWC all in the same season? On the back of having won the Champions League the season before after taking over mid-season. 

You're effectively handing out a glorified participation award at this point. No one is going to buy stocks in Potter being the better manager on the basis of this alone. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by xceleryx

[Max Fowler]

Was interesting listening to Ten Hag last night. He was unequivocal that you need results to breed confidence in the team. He is unashamed to share that philosophy with the media and yet doesn’t even come across as one of the elite types also capable of blowing up.

Why does „getting results“ feel so far from Potter‘s philosophy that it’s actually a red flag? He mentions it occasionally, but listening to Ten Hag you can hear him instilling that winning mentality from top to bottom.

Maybe most worrying about Potter is not the lack of a style of play but the seeming inability to grind out results. Mentality can’t just be something he’s instilling behind the scenes, it shows in his interviews that he doesn’t make winning absolutely first priority like the other top managers. 

I struggle to see how Ten Hag wouldn’t have left James at least on the bench against Southampton. Three days off from training? Sure, protect the players. But do some light training. We need results and these details epitomise Potter‘s attitude of building a harmonious atmosphere over results, results and more results at all costs.

Of course he wants to win every game. But if he prioritises that even 5% less than our rivals then we’re done for. Winning also makes players happy.

[McCreadie]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Three days off from training? Sure, protect the players. But do some light training. We need results and these details epitomise Potter‘s attitude of building a harmonious atmosphere over results, results and more results at all costs.

Any conversations about the why's and wherefores of training and days off this week are moot, due to the lack of factual information we have. It's just guessing.

Having already had an injury crisis that has contributed to his job being in jeopardy so early, I dont think it is a huge leap to see why GP might err on the side of caution, if players are deemed to be in the red zone. Especially given that, to progress in the CL, we will need to be able to comfortably manage 2 games a week (for one week at least...). Better to do it now and have those players available for the rest of the season, than not. But, as I say, we simply dont know.

[ROTG]

10 hours ago, Trini_Blue said:

if Potter gets his business in order and Boehly keeps him around and next season we come out and perform well week-in and week-out then I'm afraid Potter moves ahead of Tuchel for me.

Where can i buy some of the stuff you are smoking?

[Mark Kelly]

6 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Any conversations about the why's and wherefores of training and days off this week are moot, due to the lack of factual information we have. It's just guessing.

Having already had an injury crisis that has contributed to his job being in jeopardy so early, I dont think it is a huge leap to see why GP might err on the side of caution, if players are deemed to be in the red zone. Especially given that, to progress in the CL, we will need to be able to comfortably manage 2 games a week (for one week at least...). Better to do it now and have those players available for the rest of the season, than not. But, as I say, we simply dont know.

Added to this , despite noise in the media about giving them time off , nearly every social media account for OCWS has shown the players training , certainly on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday they did plus yesterday they showed the keepers in training too . So go figure !

[Max Fowler]

26 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Any conversations about the why's and wherefores of training and days off this week are moot, due to the lack of factual information we have. It's just guessing.

Having already had an injury crisis that has contributed to his job being in jeopardy so early, I dont think it is a huge leap to see why GP might err on the side of caution, if players are deemed to be in the red zone. Especially given that, to progress in the CL, we will need to be able to comfortably manage 2 games a week (for one week at least...). Better to do it now and have those players available for the rest of the season, than not. But, as I say, we simply dont know.

Come on McCreadie.

I have sympathy too for not re-injuring our entire squad but it's absolutely unprecedented to give three days off after playing so badly against Southampton. Absolutely zero excuse for not putting James on the bench.

There may be method to the madness but don't make out this is something normal that would have happened under previous managers. Personally I would take a half-injured squad that wins things over a perfectly fit and harmonious squad absolutely relaxed in their newly built "chill-out" rooms (but win nothing)  any day of the week.

[Max Fowler]

I refuse to believe that the medical team told Potter - "under no circumstances put Reece James on the bench or bring him on at the end for even 10 minutes, he is that much risk of re-injury."

Potter took a gamble and trusted in our other players and it went badly wrong. Fine - have James on the bench. No other top manager in world football would not have Reece James on the bench the way we are playing.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Ham]

3 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I refuse to believe that the medical team told Potter - "under no circumstances put Reece James on the bench or bring him on at the end for even 10 minutes, he is that much risk of re-injury."

Potter took a gamble and trusted in our other players and it went badly wrong. Fine - have James on the bench. No other top manager in world football would not have Reece James on the bench the way we are playing.

It's not just about the 10 minutes on the pitch but he would have had to have trained on the Friday as if he was going to play. I'd imagine that his training reflected the have that he wasn't playing.

Proper rest. 

[McCreadie]

5 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Absolutely zero excuse for not putting James on the bench.

As I said, you (or I) have no idea whatsoever about the why's and wherefores of players at risk of injury. You are making it up.

6 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

There may be method to the madness but don't make out this is something normal that would have happened under previous managers. 

I didn't make it out to be normal. I clearly made the point that he might have done it because the previous injury crisis has contributed to putting his £12m job in jeopardy.

14 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Personally I would take a half-injured squad that wins things over a perfectly fit and harmonious squad absolutely relaxed in their newly built "chill-out" rooms (but win nothing)  any day of the week.

We have witnessed all season, that a half injured squad doesn't win anything though.

I would rather have our best players available for the rest of the season, than not.

 

[McCreadie]

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I refuse to believe that the medical team told Potter - "under no circumstances put Reece James on the bench or bring him on at the end for even 10 minutes, he is that much risk of re-injury."

Potter took a gamble and trusted in our other players and it went badly wrong. Fine - have James on the bench. No other top manager in world football would not have Reece James on the bench the way we are playing.

So tell us what the under-fire-about-to-be-sacked Potter's motivation for leaving his best player out of the squad was, if he was fit to play?

"Hmm, I'm about to get the heave-ho, I know, I'll leave James out on Saturday - that'll confuse the opposition and we will be much more likely to win the game and I will save my job"

[Max Fowler]

9 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

So tell us what the under-fire-about-to-be-sacked Potter's motivation for leaving his best player out of the squad was, if he was fit to play?

"Hmm, I'm about to get the heave-ho, I know, I'll leave James out on Saturday - that'll confuse the opposition and we will be much more likely to win the game and I will save my job"

No - he took a gamble not playing him at all. Not putting him on the bench at all.

Again, you can claim I don't know the ins and outs - of course I don't. None of us do.

It's just footballing reality that Tuchel would have played James - not even benched him in a similar position. Would that have been right for his long-term growth? Maybe not. I just refuse to accept that playing 10 minutes is anything out of the ordinary - Potter clearly made a decision to rest him completely and trust in his other players and it didn't work. 

Again - 10 minutes is all I am asking for. He wasn't injured. He was fully fit. "At risk of re-injury".

[Mark Kelly]

1 minute ago, Max Fowler said:

No - he took a gamble not playing him at all. Not putting him on the bench at all.

Again, you can claim I don't know the ins and outs - of course I don't. None of us do.

It's just footballing reality that Tuchel would have played James - not even benched him in a similar position. Would that have been right for his long-term growth? Maybe not. I just refuse to accept that playing 10 minutes is anything out of the ordinary - Potter clearly made a decision to rest him completely and trust in his other players and it didn't work. 

Again - 10 minutes is all I am asking for. He wasn't injured. He was fully fit. "At risk of re-injury".

The club are very much going with the "advice from the fitness team" angle and seem to be briefing that one of the reasons they like Potter so much is he knew the lack of James would possibly come back and bite him but he was "brave" in looking at the health of the squad rather than worrying about his own neck. 

As you know I was fuming about it at the time but I suppose in hindsight it was a balancing act that went wrong when the rest of the fabulously wealthy and costly side couldn't hit a cows backside with a banjo. 

[Max Fowler]

36 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

As I said, you (or I) have no idea whatsoever about the why's and wherefores of players at risk of injury. You are making it up.

I didn't make it out to be normal. I clearly made the point that he might have done it because the previous injury crisis has contributed to putting his £12m job in jeopardy.

We have witnessed all season, that a half injured squad doesn't win anything though.

I would rather have our best players available for the rest of the season, than not.

 

I don't think a half-injured squad is why we haven't won football matches this season. Why we've gone through long periods of being statistically one of the worst teams in the division (despite being 3rd best on similar metrics last season - also with a huge injury crises).

Claim Potter is transition - I am fully happy to acknowledge that and say that it may take time for him to implement his philosophy. I may disagree that he's the right man but I am willing to give credit to this perspective. 

But enough with the excuse making around injuries - that isn't why we've been as bad as we've been.

Would similar injuries cost other teams the title? Sure. Top four? Maybe. What we've seen has been way, way, waaaaaaaay below that.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Ham]