New Striker

[paulw66]

31 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

 

I'd rather judge him on his previous 3-4 seasons, as opposed to 12 game run with injuries , off the back of an 8 month suspension.

 

but we'd not necessarily be buying that version of him. 

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

but we'd not necessarily be buying that version of him. 

I don't really see why this would be the case. As I said, he was carrying an injury and missed games during the end of season.  If you look at April, he missed 2 games and then played 9 mins in another, so he missed best part of a month there,  and was possibly struggling to catch up in match fitness after his ban.  All he could do was train alone for months on end, I maybe wrong on this, but I don't think he could even play in arranged/closed doors friendlies  or team training exercises, due to the conditions of his ban.

I think its fair to think there maybe unmitigated circumstances behind the lack of goals/form from Toney in recent months.

[paulw66]

16 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I don't really see why this would be the case. As I said, he was carrying an injury and missed games during the end of season.  If you look at April, he missed 2 games and then played 9 mins in another, so he missed best part of a month there,  and was possibly struggling to catch up in match fitness after his ban.  All he could do was train alone for months on end, I maybe wrong on this, but I don't think he could even play in arranged/closed doors friendlies  or team training exercises, due to the conditions of his ban.

I think its fair to think there maybe unmitigated circumstances behind the lack of goals/form from Toney in recent months.

Maybe, but is there any guarantee the "old" Toney comes back?

[east lower]

39 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I don't really see why this would be the case. As I said, he was carrying an injury and missed games during the end of season.  If you look at April, he missed 2 games and then played 9 mins in another, so he missed best part of a month there,  and was possibly struggling to catch up in match fitness after his ban.  All he could do was train alone for months on end, I maybe wrong on this, but I don't think he could even play in arranged/closed doors friendlies  or team training exercises, due to the conditions of his ban.

I think its fair to think there maybe unmitigated circumstances behind the lack of goals/form from Toney in recent months.

From what I saw, the main thing holding him back was his lack of desire to do the very basic thing of working hard. There was one game on TV where he barely lifted a leg - disgraceful and an attitude I’d want nowhere near the team I support.

[Thiago97]

20 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Maybe, but is there any guarantee the "old" Toney comes back?

Probably not . That risk is there with most transfers .

He appeals to me cos he can slot in and make a difference now. He knows the league and has performed well in the league previously. He is strong as an Ox, no defenders enjoy playing up against him. You only have to focus on him during a game, and he does create carnage for defenders when they play up against him.

There are some risks involved. I don't think he has much room for improvement to take his game beyond a level we have not seen already. In that respect, Sesko / Osimhen/ Gyokeres are the stronger options, but they also have potential to either struggle in England, or take time to get to grips in England (Seskho/Osimhen)

At some point, the club need to deliver now. It can't always be 2-3 seasons ahead time approach. Toney is ready now.

[Thiago97]

3 minutes ago, east lower said:

From what I saw, the main thing holding him back was his lack of desire to do the very basic thing of working hard. There was one game on TV where he barely lifted a leg - disgraceful and an attitude I’d want nowhere near the team I support.

I probably did not see the performance you are referring to, but he did have a groin problem and that's why he missed some games late last season. I can't say it was down to this definitively .

However, if we look at his career path, he's gone from lower league football to a big money move (at that age and career stage) that didn't pan out. He's then had to go back down the leagues and work his way up from League 2 through to the Premier League and called up by England.

Now players can change their attitudes and desire, but his CV is one of hard work and desire to actually achieve what he has. Personally, I find it difficult to believe he has just downed tools and developed a terrible attitude in the space of 6-7 months out of the game.

[east lower]

5 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

I probably did not see the performance you are referring to, but he did have a groin problem and that's why he missed some games late last season. I can't say it was down to this definitively .

However, if we look at his career path, he's gone from lower league football to a big money move (at that age and career stage) that didn't pan out. He's then had to go back down the leagues and work his way up from League 2 through to the Premier League and called up by England.

Now players can change their attitudes and desire, but his CV is one of hard work and desire to actually achieve what he has. Personally, I find it difficult to believe he has just downed tools and developed a terrible attitude in the space of 6-7 months out of the game.

I don’t recall the game, but do remember posting about it in the Premier League thread (just looked it up, away at W/Ham).

Performances speak for themselves, but there’ll be some coach that’ll think that ‘they’re the one’ to get him back on the right path and/or an owner who’ll wrongly think that they’re getting a ‘deal’. 

I also listened to an interview he did just after the ban finished and he still didn’t own his mistakes. Time will tell if he will recover the will and work ethic to get himself performing at a level that’s going to be recognised as a top level striker - my take is that he’s on a deteriorating path, but we’ll see. 

I’d not be spending money on him, better options out there and we do not need another sulking striker on our books.

 

Edited June 5 by east lower
Added info

[paulw66]

Linked with Julian Alvarez.....would be a dream signing

[Sleeping Dave]

On 04/06/2024 at 10:36, Ham said:

Anyone who has watched Gyokeres play able to tell me why every club in Europe isn't queuing up to buy him? 

His numbers are insane. 

Not nearly good enough mate. I’m Swedish and I still dont  want him anywhere near Chelsea. 

[Sleeping Dave]

Personally for me, it’s Osimhen or nobody. We need a goalscorer, someone who will put the ball in the back of the net with as few chances as possible. For me he is what we are missing. 

We honestly only need that and a GK1 and we are ready to go - with the team a year older and wiser. 
 

GK1, Petrovic, Bettinelli

James, Gusto, Badiashile, Disasi, Chalobah, Colwill, (Fofana), Chilwell, Cucurella, Maatsen

Enzo, Gallagher, Caicedo, Lavia, Ugochukwu, Chukwuemeka

Palmer, Sterling, Mudryk, Madueke, Nkunku

S1, Jackson

If we are signing Adarabioyo that’s a direct replacement for Chalobah. I don’t see us using 5 CBs over the season so we won’t buy anyone else and sell Badiashile, Disasi or Colwill. Fofana is also not likely to play any significant part.

If we sell Gallagher he will have to be replaced by someone who will be a lot more expensive. Can’t see Casadei or Santos playing any significant part. 5 CMs are also enough. 

4 - 1- 2 - 3

RB: James (Gusto)

CB: Chalobah (Disasi)

CB: Colwill (Badiashile)

LB: Chilwell (Cucurella, Maatsen)

DM: Caicedo (Ugochukwu)

CM: Enzo (Chukwuemeka) 

CM: Gallagher (Lavia)

RW: Palmer (Nkunku, Madueke)

LW: Mudryk (Sterling)

S: S1 (Jackson)

Many players can fill different positions. Caicedo, Enzo, Gallagher, Palmer, Nkunku, Lavia, Chukwuemeka and Ugochukwu are all viable options for the 1-2. Palmer, Mudryk, Sterling, Nkunku, Madueke, Chukwuemeka, Jackson and S1 options for the front three.

Not a title-winning side of course, but with a decent manager top 6 is doable with an outside shot at top four. 

[Morgs]

I agree with Dave. I am still very sure it is Osimhen. 

Telling the press we are out at this stage of the chase is simply gamesmanship from Chelsea. Napoli want 110m+ but know full well nobody else will give them over 90m for him. So if we tell them to get on their bike, they have to hawk him round the market at 80-90m not the silly money they were asking for him before. We know what a difficult b**stard AdL is to deal with but we have a couple of things in our favour:

1 - Jackson. We don't HAVE to sign a striker. It's not from a place of need but of want so Napoli have less leverage to push us on price. 

2 - Osimhen wants Chelsea because he is a Chelsea fan and Mikel is pushing him very hard to join us. 

3 - Lukaku looks increasingly close to joining Napoli so we could get 30m off the asking price because Napoli know they need a replacement if Osimhen goes. Conte has said in the press he wants Lukaku apparently so we have additional leverage. 

I still think it gets done at EUR65m plus Lukaku. But they will dick around for a couple of months on it just in case they can find someone else to pay 110m+ for him and then try to get Lukaku on loan, but I don't see that happening so once that becomes apparent to them, I think we'll get it done. 

[Morgs]

12 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Personally for me, it’s Osimhen or nobody. We need a goalscorer, someone who will put the ball in the back of the net with as few chances as possible. For me he is what we are missing. 

We honestly only need that and a GK1 and we are ready to go - with the team a year older and wiser. 
 

GK1, Petrovic, Bettinelli

James, Gusto, Badiashile, Disasi, Chalobah, Colwill, (Fofana), Chilwell, Cucurella, Maatsen

Enzo, Gallagher, Caicedo, Lavia, Ugochukwu, Chukwuemeka

Palmer, Sterling, Mudryk, Madueke, Nkunku

S1, Jackson

If we are signing Adarabioyo that’s a direct replacement for Chalobah. I don’t see us using 5 CBs over the season so we won’t buy anyone else and sell Badiashile, Disasi or Colwill. Fofana is also not likely to play any significant part.

If we sell Gallagher he will have to be replaced by someone who will be a lot more expensive. Can’t see Casadei or Santos playing any significant part. 5 CMs are also enough. 

4 - 1- 2 - 3

RB: James (Gusto)

CB: Chalobah (Disasi)

CB: Colwill (Badiashile)

LB: Chilwell (Cucurella, Maatsen)

DM: Caicedo (Ugochukwu)

CM: Enzo (Chukwuemeka) 

CM: Gallagher (Lavia)

RW: Palmer (Nkunku, Madueke)

LW: Mudryk (Sterling)

S: S1 (Jackson)

Many players can fill different positions. Caicedo, Enzo, Gallagher, Palmer, Nkunku, Lavia, Chukwuemeka and Ugochukwu are all viable options for the 1-2. Palmer, Mudryk, Sterling, Nkunku, Madueke, Chukwuemeka, Jackson and S1 options for the front three.

Not a title-winning side of course, but with a decent manager top 6 is doable with an outside shot at top four. 

I have a feeling the club rates Casadei and Chukwuemeka very highly indeed and that is a major reason why they are looking to move Gallagher on. I think probably Santos factors into their thinking as well. Fickle as we are, I believe they feel that we will forget Conor quite fast when we have Enzo doing what we bought him for in the Fabregas role with Lavia and Caicedo behind him and that Chukwuemeka and Casadei are both good enough to score more goals than Conor, move the ball better, have more accurate passing and so on. 

Not saying I agree, only that I think this is what the thinking is from the board.  It seems clear to me they feel Conor's lack of technical ability and final ball is something that Enzo, Chuks and Casadei can improve on meaningfully.

Do Lavia and Caicedo have enough dynamism and running in them to offset the loss of Conor's workrate? I suspect we will find out pretty fast.

[martin1905]

On 05/06/2024 at 10:57, paulw66 said:

I'm amazed.

4 goals since his return.

No goal since 17th February. 12 consecutive games without a goal.

Sorry, just don't get the appeal. At all.

 

I won't pretend I've watched loads and loads of Brentford but when I have seen them two things, about Toney have stood out to me.

Firstly they just don't create many chances for him. I may be wrong and would love someone with a better understanding of stats to deny or confirm this. As I said I haven't seen loads of them but whenever I have watched them they just do not create that many opportunities for their striker. So it's easy to look at his goalscoring stats and think he's not that great but I feel there is more to it than that and......

His all round game is what I like about him so much, I feel he definitely has the ability to play at a much higher level, no disrespect to Brentford but from what I have seen of him his all round ability is what sets him apart from most other strikers, especially those that are realistically available. 

He's a much, much better footballer than Solanke for example and I'd also argue Watkins but sores much less goals. Is that because they are far better goalscorers or is it the set up they are playing in? I haven't watched any of their teams enough to form a conclusion and if Ivan Toney does indeed get as many or more clear cut goalscoring opportunities than those two but is far more wasteful in front of goal then everything I say about him is irrelevant, I just dont think that's the case.

Edited June 6 by martin1905

[martin1905]

 

1 hour ago, Morgs said:

Do Lavia and Caicedo have enough dynamism and running in them to offset the loss of Conor's workrate? I suspect we will find out pretty fast.

I have been a big advocate of Gallagher for a very long time but I do feel this is a bit of a moot point. We will be dominating possession in most games so the need for a Gallagher type player is less. His on the ball ability has always been downplayed by some, he's plenty good enough although no Cesc Fabregas but no doubt his real strength is what he does off the ball.

As much as I don't want to see us sell him, especially for PSR reasons I don't think he will be anywhere near as important for us under Maresca as he was last season.

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

 

I have been a big advocate of Gallagher for a very long time but I do feel this is a bit of a moot point. We will be dominating possession in most games so the need for a Gallagher type player is less. His on the ball ability has always been downplayed by some, he's plenty good enough although no Cesc Fabregas but no doubt his real strength is what he does off the ball.

As much as I don't want to see us sell him, especially for PSR reasons I don't think he will be anywhere near as important for us under Maresca as he was last season.

This is also my take on the situation. Especially the last paragraph. I think any manager would love a player like Gallagher, super fit and rarely injured and gives his all every game, without ever seeming to tire much. 
I would expect his influence to reduce if he was set up in the team under Maresca , as I think our style will evolve away from what makes Gallagher so influential for us right now. 
This does come with one major caveat though. We need key alternatives, not just in his direct position , to be fit and available. 
I suspect he will be off anyway, so I don’t think he will be there as a fall back option. 

[Miguelito07]

 

[Mark Kelly]

9 minutes ago, Miguelito07 said:

 

Could. 

We're getting relegated for overspending one minute and spending a kings ransom the next from the same media and the same papers. 

I'm just sitting here wondering how Anorim is going to get on at the club having taken over from Pochettino. 

[asvaberg]

On 06/06/2024 at 21:17, Mark Kelly said:

Could. 

We're getting relegated for overspending one minute and spending a kings ransom the next from the same media and the same papers. 

I'm just sitting here wondering how Anorim is going to get on at the club having taken over from Pochettino. 

Is it Enzo Anorim they are thinking of? 😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁

[paulw66]

Sesko signs new contract at RB Leipzig.

Looks like Alvarez..........

[My Blood Is Blue]

3 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Sesko signs new contract at RB Leipzig.

Looks like Alvarez..........

Possibly the better option to be honest. I’m a big fan of Sesko and he’s the one I’ve said I want us to sign, but we do need some experience and Alvarez, whilst only 24, would give us that.

[paulw66]

Duran's name keeps appearing 

[Bert19]

2 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Duran's name keeps appearing 

Sigh 

[chara]

20 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Duran's name keeps appearing 

and Duran...sigh.

[hallgalley]

Just now, chara said:

and Duran...sigh.

As long as he is hungry like the wolf

[paulw66]

1 hour ago, hallgalley said:

As long as he is hungry like the wolf

Got to be worth it for the chants