General tournament chat

[chara]

OK..Deep breath everyone.....do you all agree the player was in an "offside" position?.

I have no skin in this argument but for as long as I can remember I have gone on and on about the "not affecting the play" knee jerk reaction,

Again..if the player is in the range of the keepers awareness he is affecting the absolute split second calculations a keeper is making,,,argue as much as you care to but as a keeper I know that is true...look at how much stick, say Cucu, gets at times for NOT being aware of a player out wide behind him,,,if a keeper does a similar thing he is rightly criticised..it is the keeper's job to be aware of every threat he can assimilate.

Again no skin in this particular argument but the last replay I saw the French Keeper was moving to his left in a direct path on the oppo player..... as it happens I don't believe he would have got to the ball but at that stage..however subtly ..the oppo player WAS affecting the play,...I think it is wrong for an official to decide if a keeper is being affected or not.......I can only think that the indicision was due to roughly my viewpoint..I have not listened to any pundit opinions!...

Rightly or wrongly according to one's viewpoint the officials disallowed the goal

The appalling fact was it took so long to come to a decision... with OffSides given for barely visible encroachments that as often as not do not affect the run of play is it any surprise that the var are not trusted and incidents like today are flashpoints ?....Offside is offside...harsh at times though it might seem as soon as the "affecting play" issue is abandoned the better for clear decisions...just my opinion not a cause to die on a hill for, as they say.

Disagree with me by all means but at least give it some thought and not just related to today's incident.

[Bob Singleton]

5 minutes ago, chara said:

OK..Deep breath everyone.....do you all agree the player was in an "offside" position?.

[Snipped for brevity]

As someone with more French blood in him than English, I wanted France to win... but the Dutch goal should never have been chalked off. 

Terrible decision by VAR (Attwell, wasn't it?), which took far too long. 

[As an aside, the more one watches foreign games and international tournaments, the more one becomes aware that the problem with VAR isn't VAR but English officials] 

[chara]

36 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

As someone with more French blood in him than English, I wanted France to win... but the Dutch goal should never have been chalked off. 

Terrible decision by VAR (Attwell, wasn't it?), which took far too long. 

[As an aside, the more one watches foreign games and international tournaments, the more one becomes aware that the problem with VAR isn't VAR but English officials] 

Respect your opinion Bob and unlike a Chelsea game the ultimate result was not an issue for me although I leaned towards France.

My first question was regarding was the player being in an offside position.?..no question about that but once that is agreed the following events became somewhat blurred..that was my point.....  and as you rightly point out the English officials seem to get into such a mess over anything asking for common sense and ,,gulp,,officiating,

Mt additional views were from a keepers pov and less of an argument about the incident in question.

TBH,,,I'm still a bit puzzled why it took so long to make a decision,,,what ever the reason for disallowing the goal it was there from the start and surely ..again according to the officials view, not mine. why so long to decide?

Edited June 21 by chara

[asvaberg]

Agree. Way too long. 

But I think in the end it was correct decision. And I'm neutral, not biased. The keeper was distracted.

[Mark Kelly]

7 hours ago, chara said:

Respect your opinion Bob and unlike a Chelsea game the ultimate result was not an issue for me although I leaned towards France.

My first question was regarding was the player being in an offside position.?..no question about that but once that is agreed the following events became somewhat blurred..that was my point.....  and as you rightly point out the English officials seem to get into such a mess over anything asking for common sense and ,,gulp,,officiating,

Mt additional views were from a keepers pov and less of an argument about the incident in question.

TBH,,,I'm still a bit puzzled why it took so long to make a decision,,,what ever the reason for disallowing the goal it was there from the start and surely ..again according to the officials view, not mine. why so long to decide?

I think I'd have had more sympathy for the keeper if he'd actually attempted to save the shot and was impeded by the player , instead he lifts his arm lamely and makes no attempt to save it , in my opinion he gets lucky .

[Bob Singleton]

9 hours ago, chara said:

[SNIP]

My first question was regarding was the player being in an offside position.?..no question about that but once that is agreed the following events became somewhat blurred..that was my point.....  and as you rightly point out the English officials seem to get into such a mess over anything asking for common sense and ,,gulp,,officiating,

[SNIP]

Was the player "off-side"? Yes

Was he (physically) impeding the keeper? Absolutely not. Had he not been there the ball would have still reached the net. Furthermore Maignon was positioned in such a way (legs apart and weight on his right foot initially) that he barely made a movement to his left to attempt to make a save.

Was he distracting the keeper? Well there's an argument to be made that players ought to be aware of those around them. If he "distracted" the keeper, then that suggests the keeper wasn't very aware of the players around him.

Goal should have stood, even if my home country loses.

Edited June 22 by Bob Singleton
Typo

[martin1905]

On 19/06/2024 at 18:32, Ham said:

I cannot bear Ally McCoist.  Cannot bear him.

Glad I'm not the only one, nothing personal against him I just think he's clueless, likeable, if that's your thing, but utterly clueless.

He's put on a pedestal because people like him, not because of his knowledge,  which is non existent. 

 

[jasonb]

12 hours ago, chara said:

OK..Deep breath everyone.....do you all agree the player was in an "offside" position?.

I have no skin in this argument but for as long as I can remember I have gone on and on about the "not affecting the play" knee jerk reaction,

Again..if the player is in the range of the keepers awareness he is affecting the absolute split second calculations a keeper is making,,,argue as much as you care to but as a keeper I know that is true...look at how much stick, say Cucu, gets at times for NOT being aware of a player out wide behind him,,,if a keeper does a similar thing he is rightly criticised..it is the keeper's job to be aware of every threat he can assimilate.

Again no skin in this particular argument but the last replay I saw the French Keeper was moving to his left in a direct path on the oppo player..... as it happens I don't believe he would have got to the ball but at that stage..however subtly ..the oppo player WAS affecting the play,...I think it is wrong for an official to decide if a keeper is being affected or not.......I can only think that the indicision was due to roughly my viewpoint..I have not listened to any pundit opinions!...

Rightly or wrongly according to one's viewpoint the officials disallowed the goal

The appalling fact was it took so long to come to a decision... with OffSides given for barely visible encroachments that as often as not do not affect the run of play is it any surprise that the var are not trusted and incidents like today are flashpoints ?....Offside is offside...harsh at times though it might seem as soon as the "affecting play" issue is abandoned the better for clear decisions...just my opinion not a cause to die on a hill for, as they say.

Disagree with me by all means but at least give it some thought and not just related to today's incident.

I wanted it be a goal yet thought it should be marked off.

The keeper initially moves forward making him almost parallel with the Dutch forward and there is no way he can dive without some contact. 

What I learnt from that match is the Dutch are disciplined under Koeman and the French defenders badly hold the attackers, I remember a match where that happened to Palmer yet he broke through and shot though if he went down it was a a blatant penalty as he broke and exposed the hold.  

[jasonb]

On 19/06/2024 at 17:26, blueandproud said:

As long as though they don't bring back 'Arry bloody Redknapp or Droopy (Mark Lawrenson).  Cesc and Frank are class acts as pundits as they were players, Shearer is OK, Ashley Williams is dull as ditchwater and the less said about Micah Richards the better, he just cackles unnecessarily at the smallest thing.  On ITV Keane and Souness are their best pundits. The best co=commentator is Ally McCoist by a mile, and the worst has to be Andros Townsend, who sums up the modern day pundits, doesn't say anything to upset his mates and talks in cliches.

I agree on Richards too amiable with too little too good analysis..

Don't like Shearer, not keen on Keane yet Keane is much better than Shearer and Richards.

Haven't seen enough of Williams.

Andros Townsend?   Thought I was hearing Jermaine Jenas on match commentary yet maybe it was Andros if so  agreed with his comments on the Georgia-Turkey match.

I normally agree with McCoist on his match commentary.

[Bones]

13 hours ago, chara said:

OK..Deep breath everyone.....do you all agree the player was in an "offside" position?.

I have no skin in this argument but for as long as I can remember I have gone on and on about the "not affecting the play" knee jerk reaction,

Again..if the player is in the range of the keepers awareness he is affecting the absolute split second calculations a keeper is making,,,argue as much as you care to but as a keeper I know that is true...look at how much stick, say Cucu, gets at times for NOT being aware of a player out wide behind him,,,if a keeper does a similar thing he is rightly criticised..it is the keeper's job to be aware of every threat he can assimilate.

Again no skin in this particular argument but the last replay I saw the French Keeper was moving to his left in a direct path on the oppo player..... as it happens I don't believe he would have got to the ball but at that stage..however subtly ..the oppo player WAS affecting the play,...I think it is wrong for an official to decide if a keeper is being affected or not.......I can only think that the indicision was due to roughly my viewpoint..I have not listened to any pundit opinions!...

Rightly or wrongly according to one's viewpoint the officials disallowed the goal

The appalling fact was it took so long to come to a decision... with OffSides given for barely visible encroachments that as often as not do not affect the run of play is it any surprise that the var are not trusted and incidents like today are flashpoints ?....Offside is offside...harsh at times though it might seem as soon as the "affecting play" issue is abandoned the better for clear decisions...just my opinion not a cause to die on a hill for, as they say.

Disagree with me by all means but at least give it some thought and not just related to today's incident.

Fair points. Sometimes I just dont have the time to explain things in depth.

My point was that he was standing next to keeper and pretty much did not move so he wasnt in the game at all. He wasnt actively blocking keepers view and if he wasnt there the keeper wouldnt have saved it anyway as he was on the floor.

the worst thing indeed is when it takes super long and the “mistake” isnt obvious. Cancel goals which have obvious mistakes, but this one is an interpretetion of how one sees it.

[Sciatika]

I thought that the GK was on his feet (just about) and might have saved it, but YMMV.

[jasonb]

Georgia look less effective against Czech Republic though ahead due to penalty shout.

The Czechs look very physical need to get the balance right or they might end up with a red.

Georgia have some clever forward players though not sure if they will survive the group stage yet 1-0 ahead gives them a chance. 

 

[chara]

Well ...Thank you all for taking my posts and understanding I wasn't arguing that it wasn't /was a valid goal and considering the points I raised in the same spirit.As @Bones points out our posts are not second by second breakdowns of incidents with micro analysis and I believe we all try to share the essence of a point which of course leaves various little pockets of unspoken/written moments.

With 20/20 hindsight I think I was trying to make..yet again! ..yawn...the awareness issue affecting situations...slightly off the main issue of the incident and the ludicrous amount of time it took to make a decision.

The evidence was there from the first rerun ...be it allow or disallow...why it took so long to decide I do not understand..or perhaps I/we actually do understand!

The problem it seems with VAR in UK is it appears to give officials licence to make their own (biased?)decision rather than follow the strict interpretation of a law.

[jasonb]

On that Lineker comment on Frank and his hair, there was another obvious one too.

Sure some of you will remember the blue-rinse brigade referring to pensioners well looks like Cesc has joined it too with reddish highlights 😄 

[jasonb]

Expected Portugal to beat Turkey perhaps as much as 4-0 even with Ronaldo who can't hit a barn door for Portugal.

I saw at 0-0 Pepe as last man sprint across and make a challenge to stop a Turkey break, it didn't look right and play continued without a replay.

Lee Dixon is commentating and when the Turkish defender got booked late on, said that was no different from the Pepe challenge early on.  Not quite Lee, it would have been red yet good of you to point this out.

 

[blueandproud]

Sam Matterface is the worst commentator on TV, makes Clive Tyldesley look good, and his attempts at humour are just lame, he's about as funny as an abcess in the mouth. 

[JaneB]

Sorry @CarefreeMuratcan but you can still go through.

(Lovely to see my fav Ricci on the Portugal bench)

[blueandproud]

Rafael Leao, what a cheating little c***!  Shame Chopper Harris, Tommy Smith, Paul Reeney or Terry Cooper aen't around anymore, he wouldn't get a chance to dive against them!

[blueandproud]

Great goal by Tielemans, if Belgium win every team in that group will have 3 points.  

[asvaberg]

30 minutes ago, blueandproud said:

Great goal by Tielemans, if Belgium win every team in that group will have 3 points.  

Fine assist from our player also.... 😁

[My Blood Is Blue]

Anyone watch the Scotland match last night and see the awful incident involving the Hungarian striker, Varga? Really harrowing scenes.

Fortunately, it sounds as though he is going to be ok, but suffered concussion and multiple broken bones in his face. I presume more happened to him on the pitch after the incident, but I’m not even going to begin to speculate on that.

[Backbiter]

51 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Anyone watch the Scotland match last night and see the awful incident involving the Hungarian striker, Varga? Really harrowing scenes.

Fortunately, it sounds as though he is going to be ok, but suffered concussion and multiple broken bones in his face. I presume more happened to him on the pitch after the incident, but I’m not even going to begin to speculate on that.

I thought at first it must have been the Scotland keeper - who charged out for the ball - who made glancing contact, but it might also have been a Scotland defender's arm.  The player looked to be knocked out in mid-air and hit the ground pretty hard, but it was almost certainly a collision with another player that did the real damage. It was a horrible incident, but I didn't see anyone doing anything especially reckless. Keepers charge out like that to punch the ball several times per game. I thought at first the keeper might have suffered a serious neck injury as he landed very awkwardly.

[Ham]

2 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Anyone watch the Scotland match last night and see the awful incident involving the Hungarian striker, Varga? Really harrowing scenes.

Fortunately, it sounds as though he is going to be ok, but suffered concussion and multiple broken bones in his face. I presume more happened to him on the pitch after the incident, but I’m not even going to begin to speculate on that.

 

1 hour ago, Backbiter said:

I thought at first it must have been the Scotland keeper - who charged out for the ball - who made glancing contact, but it might also have been a Scotland defender's arm.  The player looked to be knocked out in mid-air and hit the ground pretty hard, but it was almost certainly a collision with another player that did the real damage. It was a horrible incident, but I didn't see anyone doing anything especially reckless. Keepers charge out like that to punch the ball several times per game. I thought at first the keeper might have suffered a serious neck injury as he landed very awkwardly.

It was the keeper.  They get away with too much of this nonsense.  Throwing forearms and fists in the direction of heads.  

The keeper looked disinterested afterwards.  Glad they went out.  

[Backbiter]

12 minutes ago, Ham said:

 

It was the keeper.  They get away with too much of this nonsense.  Throwing forearms and fists in the direction of heads.  

The keeper looked disinterested afterwards.  Glad they went out.  

I've seen some reckless stuff from keepers but I don't think he's guilty of either, based on that still. He's leading with his right arm which is way above any players' head. I can't see any evidence that he's thrown his arm at the Hungarian striker. They are both challenging for the ball, and the forearm is not outstretched. Horrible incident, no doubt, but I can't see any malicious, deliberate foul play.

[Ham]

12 minutes ago, Backbiter said:

I've seen some reckless stuff from keepers but I don't think he's guilty of either, based on that still. He's leading with his right arm which is way above any players' head. I can't see any evidence that he's thrown his arm at the Hungarian striker. They are both challenging for the ball, and the forearm is not outstretched. Horrible incident, no doubt, but I can't see any malicious, deliberate foul play.

I wasn't suggesting it was deliberate, just that a keeper should be mindful of their body shape when jumping towards an outfield player, including the position of the elbow and forearm.  

An outfield player is punished for the follow through of the other leg when tackling  regardless of whether there is actually contact but keepers are allowed to smash their way through an attacker without caution.  

I stand by what I said about his reaction afterwards though.