West Ham United 1 Chelsea 1

[chara]

6 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

It's noticeable, during these early days of the new forum when there aren't a huge number of people posting, the favourite players each member tends to defend (and also those they dislike and tend to attack) as the same "culprits" tend to crop up when criticising our performance. Cucurella and Mount are regular faces on this list. Mudryk was hailed as a world beater after 30 minutes against Liverpool, and then a donkey after Fulham, then today he was fairly ineffective again (whether or not this was due to those around him). In short in these early days of the Clearlake takeover we give the players zero latitude. One poor game and they're out. Get rid and buy a replacement. We've got to stop with these knee jerk reactions. The truth is good players only get you so far (unless you're the Harlem Globetrotters), you have to develop a team that through time becomes greater than the sum of its parts. Today we saw an improvement in that team and that will only improve once James and Chilwell become confident enough to begin overlapping the wingers again. It will improve when Kovacic comes back to partner Enzo in midfield. Give the squad a chance to settle down before you lay into them and attribute every bad result to poor old Cucurella.

Same goes for the manager to be honest. The most valid criticism I hear about him is that he doesn't or isn't able to react to the opponent when they change things. Maybe he isn't sufficiently confident in the team or certain players in the team to change on the fly. Today, clearly he sent out James and Chilwell not to over exert their bodies in case they injured themselves again. Hopefully this will change. Perhaps another reason for his lack of reaction in games though is that he is not used having the plethora of talent on hand to change. If this is the case and he can't change then this is a problem. We will know more about this by the end of the season. Until then he has my backing.

Remember that Clearlake's stated policy is to make use of the Academy and develop the players it produces. A firebrand manager isn't going to do this. They will demand expensive signings that will come and go depending on their performance. That is why we have Potter. I'm crossing my fingers that he, together with the new psychology consultant, can begin to produce results with the squad and that over time the younger players will be fed in. If the owners lose their nerve and Potter does lose his job then this policy goes up in flames and we will be back to the old formula of sacking the manager every 18 months although this time there is no Terry/Lampard/Cech/Drogba spine to provide continuity and we risk losing identity with the club.

Thoughtful post HM, thank you.

I know you are not making excuses for GP and I note the "crossing my fingers" comment... but that is what we all seem to be doing and that worries me.

The James/Chilwell not over reaching point is valid but if they are not ready then don't throw them in..that is what happened to both of them earlier.

For all the very valid and sensible posts it still comes down to lack of real confidence in GP...as ever we all seem to be hoping we are overreacting but the bottom line is..RESULTS now..or at the very least some sign that the system is there but needs the players to get used to it and gel as a team with new additions.

As ever I have no answers just worry.

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

Imma gonna go with Potter.

Good for you. Mid table mediocre is here to stay. 

[boratsbrother]

Good post by Ham, except for the part about Cucu being blamed for the result.

All I've seen is posters saying how poor he was again and has been all season. What I've also seen on this forum is posters giving praise to the players they've been slagging off if one of  those player has a good game. If players repeatedly put in sub standard performances, which Cucu most certainly has been doing, then they are going to  deserve the stick they  get, just as a player who's playing consistently well will get the praise they deserve. See how opinions changed about our keepers as proof of that.

 

[Mark Kelly]

10 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Good for you. Mid table mediocre is here to stay. 

Only in the decisions he made re players today , otherwise I think he may be as clueless as you think he is.

[RDCW]

Potter really can't be as bad a coach as our performances would imply. Surely it's a question of a lack of inspiration rather than education: GP is a limp cookie, a damp squid, a bursted straight, a Norwegian Blue......

 

[Michael Tucker]

3 minutes ago, RDCW said:

Potter really can't be as bad a coach as our performances would imply.

He can, and imo, is.

3 minutes ago, RDCW said:

Surely it's a question of a lack of inspiration rather than education: GP is a limp cookie, a damp squid, a bursted straight, a Norwegian Blue......

 

Yes, he is. Should be out the door quick-smart.

[Ham]

3 hours ago, Original 21 said:

Helpful from Declan Rice:

"Chelsea had some really good players on show. It took us a while to get going and adapt to their system. But once we found out their weakness, getting the ball down the sides of them and realised their wingers weren’t tracking back. We managed to exploit that."

Noni in particular was naive time and time again in and out of possession.  

1 hour ago, boratsbrother said:

Good post by Ham, except for the part about Cucu being blamed for the result.

 

Got excited at someone liking a post of mine and then realised it wasn't my post at all 🙁

[Proud-Blue]

Interesting like there from Mudryk on Instagram... I mean he's not exactly wrong is he? Though probably shouldn't have done that publicly.

[RDCW]

16 minutes ago, Ham said:

Noni in particular was naive time and time again in and out of possession.  

Got excited at someone liking a post of mine and then realised it wasn't my post at all 🙁

There ya go!

[Ham]

19 minutes ago, Proud-Blue said:

Interesting like there from Mudryk on Instagram... I mean he's not exactly wrong is he? Though probably shouldn't have done that publicly.

Am I being thick? What does the meme even mean?

[xceleryx]

16 minutes ago, Ham said:

Am I being thick? What does the meme even mean?

I believe it's trying to take the piss out of Cucurella not passing the ball forward to Mudryk, instead preferring to pass it backwards or sideways. 

[Ham]

2 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

I believe it's trying to take the piss out of Cucurella not passing the ball forward to Mudryk, instead preferring to pass it backwards or sideways. 

Oh right. Cheers.

Apart from one decent forward pass, everything else from him was sideways or backwards. 

He's so negative it's frightening. Makes me nervous every time he receives the ball in our final third. 

Chilwell all the way from this point. 

[xceleryx]

49 minutes ago, Ham said:

Oh right. Cheers.

Apart from one decent forward pass, everything else from him was sideways or backwards. 

He's so negative it's frightening. Makes me nervous every time he receives the ball in our final third. 

Chilwell all the way from this point. 

I'm probably in the minority here but I don't think Cucurella is nearly as bad as many are portraying him to be. Not to suggest he doesn't have a lot of room for improvement but the West Ham equaliser highlighted that he's the go-to man to single out whenever the chance arises, even if other players were more culpable. 

Chilwell is the more attack minded player, I think that was well known even before Cucurella arrived so it's no a great surprise he offers more in the final third. You can see the difference in roles both players have though when playing. Cucurella is often tucking inside and playing as nearly a faux centreback/midfielder to form somewhat of a back three. This tends to limit his passing options, which is why he goes backwards and sideways so much. Chilwell tends to play more as a traditional fullback/wingback with greater emphasis placed on overlapping and getting forward. 

That said I thought generally speaking Cucurella was solid without being spectacular. He won 4/4 ground duels, completed 88% of his passes, had 3 tackles and wasn't dribbled past. Even when isolated against Antonio on a few occasions he held his own. 

The biggest gripes people seem to have is that he doesn't do enough in possession, and that's fair to an extent, but as allude to above there's possible cause for that due to instructions. Especially if you compare how he looked in the few games early under Tuchel, where his forward passing was more decisive. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by xceleryx
spelling correction

[kev61]

Didn't see the game I was in Dublin to watch the rugby.It is the first rugby game I've ever been to.My brother in law lives within walking distance of the aviva stadium.

To say I was dragged along is probably an overstatement,but in all honesty I really wasn't looking forward to it.

I was pleasantly  surprised - fantastic atmosphere and seemed like Ireland have I decent team,but then everything seems better with a few jars!.

I've went through the forum about what folk have said about our game today - it seems for the majority there were green shoots,but there is an increasing disillusionment with Mr P?.

What surprised  me were some people are already putting the boot into our new recruits with their signature barely dry on a contract.

[kev61]

9 hours ago, ROTG said:

 In normal circumstances with a top class coach, those two who are raw and for the future would be slowly introduced into the squad.  Not throw into the deep in in a London Darby when the club are desperate for points and leave senior players are on the bench.
 

Depends on what "senior players" you are talking about most of them are crap anyway.

If you are captain of a ship and it hit's an iceberg do you re-arrange the deck chairs or do you try desperate measures and try and stop the ship from sinking.

[Rob B]

7 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I'm probably in the minority here but I don't think Cucurella is nearly as bad as many are portraying him to be. Not to suggest he doesn't have a lot of room for improvement but the West Ham equaliser highlighted that he's the go-to man to single out whenever the chance arises, even if other players were more culpable. 

Chilwell is the more attack minded player, I think that was well known even before Cucurella arrived so it's no a great surprise he offers more in the final third. You can see the difference in roles both players have though when playing. Cucurella is often tucking inside and playing as nearly a faux centreback/midfielder to form somewhat of a back three. This tends to limit his passing options, which is why he goes backwards and sideways so much. Chilwell tends to play more as a traditional fullback/wingback with greater emphasis placed on overlapping and getting forward. 

That said I thought generally speaking Cucurella was solid without being spectacular. He won 4/4 ground duels, completed 88% of his passes, had 3 tackles and wasn't dribbled past. Even when isolated against Antonio on a few occasions he held his own. 

The biggest gripes people seem to have is that he doesn't do enough in possession, and that's fair to an extent, but as allude to above there's possible cause for that due to instructions. Especially if you compare how he looked in the few games early under Tuchel, where his forward passing was more decisive. 

My issue is not so much a technical one, but a physical / willingness one.  I’ll explain…

Cucurella gave Mudryk absolutely no support all game.  No overlapping runs, no underlapping runs,  didn’t give him the ball quickly to feet or even over the top in space - nothing.  That meant our entire left hand side was nullified.  

Within about 2 minutes of Chilwell coming on he sprints 40 odd yards, gets into our box and wins a corner (arguably should have done better too) but the willingness was there.  It’s the same with Lewis Hall, who in just a handful of games must have had 3 or 4 clear cut chances at goal. 

Just because his possession % is high or he’s won a decent amount of his duals, doesn’t mean he’s benefitting the team.  He’s really hindering our play if anything and I cannot believe he’s been asked to do this so why isn’t Potter screaming at him from the sidelines? 

[exiledblue]

18 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

This is when I miss Jose... just imagine how he'd be reacting right now. He'd pay the fine before he even got in front of the camera I imagine.

or TT

[exiledblue]

8 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I'm probably in the minority here but I don't think Cucurella is nearly as bad as many are portraying him to be. Not to suggest he doesn't have a lot of room for improvement but the West Ham equaliser highlighted that he's the go-to man to single out whenever the chance arises, even if other players were more culpable. 

 

From day 1 I have said the same about him and took a lot of flack in the early days on the old site. I dont know what his position is in a team. He is constantly out of position, he has no awareness of what the threat is, he has no speed to recover and 90% of his passes are backwards. Going forward he offers little as his crosses rarely beat the first man. If you have to have long hair and use a hair band at least wear one that doesnt mean you need to adjust your hair after each run. My opinions have not changed. It must be the Brighton connection that gets him picked, I dont remember being, certainly not 70m impressed with him there either.

He is not the whole fault, I think that lies with Potter, but in his position it is an obligation to link and over lap with the man in front of you. Mudryk is also getting pulled each game, as he seems to be ineffective but that lies with Cucarella not looking to pass forward.

I saw at least one of the papers last week were putting him in the flop of the season teams.

Anyway, TT is still without a job and a winner. The talents we have in the team should not have us scrapping around for a draw with West Ham, Fulham etc

[xceleryx]

16 minutes ago, Rob B said:

My issue is not so much a technical one, but a physical / willingness one.  I’ll explain…

Cucurella gave Mudryk absolutely no support all game.  No overlapping runs, no underlapping runs,  didn’t give him the ball quickly to feet or even over the top in space - nothing.  That meant our entire left hand side was nullified.  

Within about 2 minutes of Chilwell coming on he sprints 40 odd yards, gets into our box and wins a corner (arguably should have done better too) but the willingness was there.  It’s the same with Lewis Hall, who in just a handful of games must have had 3 or 4 clear cut chances at goal. 

Just because his possession % is high or he’s won a decent amount of his duals, doesn’t mean he’s benefitting the team.  He’s really hindering our play if anything and I cannot believe he’s been asked to do this so why isn’t Potter screaming at him from the sidelines? 

I kinda addressed this though in the post you quoted, Cucurella seems to have an altered role to that of Chilwell. He tucks in more and takes up midfield/third CB like positions which shows on his heat maps. There tends to be less emphasises being placed on him getting forward, unlike what we were seeing early on under Tuchel. Chilwell on the other hand tends to have more licence to overlap and in turn takes up less of these more defensive positions. And to be fair to Cucurella, we did see him get on the overlap a few times in the second half, one of which included a pretty decent cross into the box. 

As for Hall, he's a midfielder that's strengths come on the ball so it's no surprise he looked to be more progressive. He can't defend for a lick however.

I'm not saying those stats equate to seeing huge benefits on the pitch, was just pointing out that his overall performance wasn't terrible like it's being made out to be. 

End of the day how much of this is tied to Potter or not remains to be seen. I do think there's still a tidy player in there, but like a lot of our players we're not seeing the best being extracted from them for a variety of reasons. 

 

[McCreadie]

I think he is a player suffering from a lack of confidence. He actually has improved from where he started with us, which admittedly was with some pretty terrible form. This is a big step up in expectation for him Trawling the You Tube videos when we bought him, I actually thought his willingness to instantly and energetically progress the ball, was going to be his best attribute for us. It feels like his mindset is all tied up in not making any more mistakes, which, as we know, usually leads to more mistakes… situation probably not helped by the change to a 4. Reece also achieved little yesterday, injury notwithstanding. He just needs to keep plugging away.

[Holymoly]

Cucurella. Usually gets stick. A lot of it. Today there seem to be some people sticking up for him. He's an enigma. Today you have to assume he had orders NOT to overlap. To be fair to him James was the same on the right. When he was at Brighton he was up and down the pitch all the time. He is capable of it obviously, it has to be team orders. Let's not also forget he was initially acquired to provide cover for Chilwell, not to replace him. It's unfortunate for all concerned that Ben Chilwell has been out of the squad for such a long period of time.

[Sciatika]

I wondered if Chilwell, Cucurella and James think that backs should not move forward and overlap as you would as a wing back. 

[Holymoly]

Graeme Potter. I'm prepared to give the guy to the end of the season to show the path he intends moving us forward on although I agree at the moment that direction remains shrouded in mist.

By all accounts he was brought in to stabilise a huge number of new signings and oversee a complete rebuild of the playing staff while also introducing a method of integrating academy players into the senior squad. Obviously at the same time I assume it was expected that he maintain a reasonable quality of success in the league. In this he has been thwarted, firstly by an extensive injury list of key players, then by a protracted WC break which probably affected our weakened squad more than other clubs, and finally the influx of new players last month.

I am disappointed by Potter's performance on the pitch and I would guess so are the owners. By and large there is not that much wrong with how he selects the starting players however from that point it does tend to go downhill.

1. He tends not to react to the opposition tactics

2. His substitutions seem formulaic and pre-planned

3. He never tub thumps post match suggesting he reacts similarly in the dressing room.

4. He is not "lucky"

I think unfortunately he might be just too nice a guy to manage a top club as often the mien of the head coach is the determining factor of the ultimate performance of the club. As with a player, having a sharp edge can be the difference between being good and tipping over into greatness.

With all his qualifications in man management and with the club's acquisition of a psycholgical coach I hope it will result in us turning a corner and beginning to build something. Ideally he will be given until the end of the season however we are now at the point I believe where if things begin to nose dive from the position we are at presently then his position is precarious. The one thing in his favour is that there are no obvious replacements.

Fingers crossed.

[Mark Kelly]

You'll be relieved to know the reason the handball wasn't given for a penalty by VAR was because Soucek was putting his arm out "to break" his "fall" .

No , really .

[Bob Singleton]

11 hours ago, Proud-Blue said:

Interesting like there from Mudryk on Instagram... I mean he's not exactly wrong is he? Though probably shouldn't have done that publicly.

I suspect that Mudryk saw a picture of himself and without any greater depth of thought, clicked "like"... then people with more time on their hands than is good for them attempt to assign deeper meanings to the event. 🙄🙄