West Ham United 1 Chelsea 1

[Thiago97]

10 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I'm probably in the minority here but I don't think Cucurella is nearly as bad as many are portraying him to be. Not to suggest he doesn't have a lot of room for improvement but the West Ham equaliser highlighted that he's the go-to man to single out whenever the chance arises, even if other players were more culpable. 

Chilwell is the more attack minded player, I think that was well known even before Cucurella arrived so it's no a great surprise he offers more in the final third. You can see the difference in roles both players have though when playing. Cucurella is often tucking inside and playing as nearly a faux centreback/midfielder to form somewhat of a back three. This tends to limit his passing options, which is why he goes backwards and sideways so much. Chilwell tends to play more as a traditional fullback/wingback with greater emphasis placed on overlapping and getting forward. 

That said I thought generally speaking Cucurella was solid without being spectacular. He won 4/4 ground duels, completed 88% of his passes, had 3 tackles and wasn't dribbled past. Even when isolated against Antonio on a few occasions he held his own. 

The biggest gripes people seem to have is that he doesn't do enough in possession, and that's fair to an extent, but as allude to above there's possible cause for that due to instructions. Especially if you compare how he looked in the few games early under Tuchel, where his forward passing was more decisive. 

I agree . He has quite clearly been disappointing so far, but not as bad as gets made out. He was average yesterday, nothing more, nothing less. His performance at Anfield recently was good, where he played that hybrid LB/LCB role you describe. I think at times we have asked a lot of him with this type of role, also LCB role with Sterling as wing back in some earlier games. 
He looks short on confidence and could probably do with a break out of the first team for a short run of games , just to take the focus away from him .

I’m a big fan of Chilwell at his peak, but we didn’t really see too much of that post injury, whilst he has had another since. The confidence lacking , backward passing is what we were seeing from Chilwell earlier in the season. Maybe he just needs a run now to find some form and hope his body stands up up with no issues from a run of 5-6 consecutive games. 

[exiledblue]

Only 1 year ago

[thevelourfog]

3 hours ago, Rob B said:

My issue is not so much a technical one, but a physical / willingness one.  I’ll explain…

Cucurella gave Mudryk absolutely no support all game.  No overlapping runs, no underlapping runs,  didn’t give him the ball quickly to feet or even over the top in space - nothing.  That meant our entire left hand side was nullified.  

Agreed, and bizarre to me because I honestly thought when he signed any criticism was going to he that he was a little cavalier and attack minded. Perhaps I had him wrong all along (watched a full 90 of him maybe 6 or 7 times tbf).

[Ham]

20 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

You'll be relieved to know the reason the handball wasn't given for a penalty by VAR was because Soucek was putting his arm out "to break" his "fall" .

No , really .

Ignoring the fact that the only reason he needed to break his fall was because he was throwing himself to the ground to block the shot with his hand  🤷🏻‍♂️

Also ignoring the fact that his hand never reached the floor. He simply reached out to the ball.

Meanwhile......

 

[McCreadie]

Watched the game again this morning and it was actually a very good controlled performance. Never an easy place for us to go. We dominated pretty much from start to finish and never looked to be struggling to contain them. This WAS an improvement, much as a few don’t want it to be. Much better attacking threat, especially 1st half. We didn’t make enough clear cut chances 2nd half, but we were still way more dangerous than WH and never in trouble. Enzo and Felix were excellent. Mudryk will be great once he adjusts. James and Chilwell both a little rusty understandably. Hopefully they will both be up to speed in a couple of weeks. Oh, and the triple substitution actually had no detrimental impact on our attacking threat. VAR theived us of 2 points and that is the beginning, middle and end of it. Sterling and Kante still to come back to replace Madueke and RLC. Lots to be positive about.

[Mark Kelly]

8 minutes ago, Ham said:

Ignoring the fact that the only reason he needed to break his fall was because he was throwing himself to the ground to block the shot with his hand  🤷🏻‍♂️

Also ignoring the fact that his hand never reached the floor. He simply reached out to the ball.

Meanwhile......

 

I've said a hundred times , our games are refereed differently to everyone else's.

On purpose.

As a club we should really be making more out of it , it's not like the PGMOL could treat us any harsher than they are.

Riley should be made to leave early.

[thevelourfog]

16 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Watched the game again this morning and it was actually a very good controlled performance. Never an easy place for us to go. We dominated pretty much from start to finish and never looked to be struggling to contain them. This WAS an improvement, much as a few don’t want it to be. Much better attacking threat, especially 1st half. We didn’t make enough clear cut chances 2nd half, but we were still way more dangerous than WH and never in trouble. Enzo and Felix were excellent. Mudryk will be great once he adjusts. James and Chilwell both a little rusty understandably. Hopefully they will both be up to speed in a couple of weeks. Oh, and the triple substitution actually had no detrimental impact on our attacking threat. VAR theived us of 2 points and that is the beginning, middle and end of it. Sterling and Kante still to come back to replace Madueke and RLC. Lots to be positive about.

Who doesn't want us to improve? Can we name names when we say things like this?

I respect your optimism and really hope you have it right. I'm just not seeing that "containing" the 16th placed team in the league (but still managing to concede) really is an improvement. I desperately want to see improvement.

[Mark Kelly]

6 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Who doesn't want us to improve? Can we name names when we say things like this?

I respect your optimism and really hope you have it right. I'm just not seeing that "containing" the 16th placed team in the league (but still managing to concede) really is an improvement. I desperately want to see improvement.

I suppose putting the ball in the net three times is three times more than usual even if two were offside . 

Also Enzo Fernandez is one assist away from leading the Chelsea assists league after two games . He's currently on one assist . 

[Trini_Blue]

1 hour ago, McCreadie said:

Watched the game again this morning and it was actually a very good controlled performance. Never an easy place for us to go. We dominated pretty much from start to finish and never looked to be struggling to contain them. This WAS an improvement, much as a few don’t want it to be. Much better attacking threat, especially 1st half. We didn’t make enough clear cut chances 2nd half, but we were still way more dangerous than WH and never in trouble. Enzo and Felix were excellent. Mudryk will be great once he adjusts. James and Chilwell both a little rusty understandably. Hopefully they will both be up to speed in a couple of weeks. Oh, and the triple substitution actually had no detrimental impact on our attacking threat. VAR theived us of 2 points and that is the beginning, middle and end of it. Sterling and Kante still to come back to replace Madueke and RLC. Lots to be positive about.

Yeah I rewatched the second half last night and what stuck out to me again was how well organized we looked. West Ham only had one real chance and it was off a set piece that Badiashile got the ball but was still called for the ball and booked.

Enzo had another masterclass IMO. Top top player. He literally does it all. Loftus cheek didn't look half bad either.

Honestly, the only thing is that even on second viewing we still look a bit lethargic. Maybe Potter is to blame for that but I just don't see him getting fired for it because we are looking very solid otherwise.

I'm not sure I want to see the guy get fired either because I'm not comfortable with the kind of message that sends to the new recruits. Some of them seem really comfortable with him.

Everybody has long contracts in place and I saw Boehly, Behdad and the coaching staff having lunch together this week and I believe the ownership group wants to have a long-term vision in mind.

[McCreadie]

26 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Who doesn't want us to improve? Can we name names when we say things like this?

My exact words were “This was an improvement, much as a few don’t want it to be.”

Which in my mind meant “This was an improvement. A few people refuse to acknowledge that, because of their deeply entrenched Potter-out agendas.”

“Improvement” to me, is “better play for longer periods”. Simple. We saw that. We need to keep seeing “improvement”, week on week.

It does seem to me, that to a few on here, “improvement” equals “win.” Or at least “cannot exist without win”.

 

 

 

[McCreadie]

2 minutes ago, Trini_Blue said:

Yeah I rewatched the second half last night and what stuck out to me again was how well organized we looked. West Ham only had one real chance and it was off a set piece that Badiashile got the ball but was still called for the ball and booked.

Enzo had another masterclass IMO. Top top player. He literally does it all. Loftus cheek didn't look half bad either.

Honestly, the only thing is that even on second viewing we still look a bit lethargic. Maybe Potter is to blame for that but I just don't see him getting fired for it because we are looking very solid otherwise.

I'm not sure I want to see the guy get fired either because I'm not comfortable with the kind of message that sends to the new recruits. Some of them seem really comfortable with him.

Everybody has long contracts in place and I saw Boehly, Behdad and the coaching staff having lunch together this week and I believe the ownership group wants to have a long-term vision in mind.

Well said

[boratsbrother]

12 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I'm probably in the minority here but I don't think Cucurella is nearly as bad as many are portraying him to be. Not to suggest he doesn't have a lot of room for improvement but the West Ham equaliser highlighted that he's the go-to man to single out whenever the chance arises, even if other players were more culpable. 

Chilwell is the more attack minded player, I think that was well known even before Cucurella arrived so it's no a great surprise he offers more in the final third. You can see the difference in roles both players have though when playing. Cucurella is often tucking inside and playing as nearly a faux centreback/midfielder to form somewhat of a back three. This tends to limit his passing options, which is why he goes backwards and sideways so much. Chilwell tends to play more as a traditional fullback/wingback with greater emphasis placed on overlapping and getting forward. 

That said I thought generally speaking Cucurella was solid without being spectacular. He won 4/4 ground duels, completed 88% of his passes, had 3 tackles and wasn't dribbled past. Even when isolated against Antonio on a few occasions he held his own. 

The biggest gripes people seem to have is that he doesn't do enough in possession, and that's fair to an extent, but as allude to above there's possible cause for that due to instructions. Especially if you compare how he looked in the few games early under Tuchel, where his forward passing was more decisive. 

He's being subbed every game which is very telling and wouldn't be getting a start at all if Chilwell was fully fit. Looks closer to a bargain basement £6 million player than one which cost a whopping 60 million.

 

 

[Ham]

The agenda is very real.

 

[Sciatika]

I haven't had a chance to watch the whole game yet, but one thing I did note was that their goal was a defensive lapse that was not only Cucurella's fault (although he was part of it). Here's an image:

As Coufal (5) receives the ball, Soucek (28) is on the point of the area. Cucrella points indicating to Mudryk that he needs help. Mudryk was slow to get back, but Cucurella did not push out to Coufal because Soucek is still there (first mistake). This gives Coufal time to make the telling cross.

As the cross comes across, Enzo is covering Bowen (20) with Silva on Antonio (9) in the box. I think Badiashile is watching Bowen. Soucek and the cross. RLC is on the edge of the box - not sure what he is doing. James and Mudueke are supposed to be dealing with Benrahma (22) (James) and Emerson (33) (Madueke).  Kepa sees Bowen and steps left to cover a potential shot. Bowen only gets a deflection. I think Badiashile is worried about diverting the deflection into the net and so he leaves it. 

If you watch the clip. Madueke notices too late that Emerson has got away (mistake) allowing Emerson to come in at the back to score.

 

[Mark Kelly]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

The agenda is very real.

 

Essentially *uck Chelsea 

Edited February 12, 2023 by Mark Kelly

[chara]

15 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Essentially *uck Chelsea 

Rinse, Repeat.....

[Proud-Blue]

I feel this is quite revealing in terms of our attacking play. Look at the difference between left and right. We very few vertical passes from our left side, especially from Cucurella, To me this shows he is either not very good at playing forward passes or is shot of confidence. Given his history of playing well between the lines at Brighton, and in the first couple of games for us, I'm going to go with the latter.

We're also not going to get the best out of Mudryk unless we have an LB who allows him to cut inside. Cannot wait for Ben Chilwell to be fully fit. 

While I think our forward movement definitely felt better, it's going to be predictable if our left side is essentially blunt compared to our right.

 

[thevelourfog]

3 hours ago, McCreadie said:

My exact words were “This was an improvement, much as a few don’t want it to be.”

I know, I read them. Mine was about naming those people, as it's a bugbear of mine when this is done on a forum. 

I think everyone wants us to be better. I think some people have different opinions on Potter, but I don't see how thinking he's not up to it is any more of an "agenda" than optimism. 

[McCreadie]

1 minute ago, thevelourfog said:

I know, I read them. Mine was about naming those people, as it's a bugbear of mine when this is done on a forum. 

I think everyone wants us to be better. I think some people have different opinions on Potter, but I don't see how thinking he's not up to it is any more of an "agenda" than optimism. 

Well, once again, if that was what I had said, fine. It wasn’t. Yesterday was an improved performance. Some refuse to accept that. Not the same as “not wanting us to be better” at all.

[thevelourfog]

1 minute ago, McCreadie said:

Well, once again, if that was what I had said, fine. It wasn’t. Yesterday was an improved performance. Some refuse to accept that. Not the same as “not wanting us to be better” at all.

I think they are, for all intents and purposes, the same things as each other. But we disagree. You strike me as a reasonable poster and someone whose contributions I enjoy, so not looking to make it a thing and will drop it now.

I didn't see the improvements you allude to. Because I don't think they were there. I do think you're being honest that you saw them, though, rather than "refusing to accept" optimism is misplaced. I don't really understand why agendas are such a thing here, I think we just all have different opinions, different things in performances we value, different unconscious bias we seek confirmatory evidence of. 

[McCreadie]

2 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I think they are, for all intents and purposes, the same things as each other. But we disagree. You strike me as a reasonable poster and someone whose contributions I enjoy, so not looking to make it a thing and will drop it now.

I didn't see the improvements you allude to. Because I don't think they were there. I do think you're being honest that you saw them, though, rather than "refusing to accept" optimism is misplaced. I don't really understand why agendas are such a thing here, I think we just all have different opinions, different things in performances we value, different unconscious bias we seek confirmatory evidence of. 

That’s all good and point taken. It’s massively disappointing to not be winning games. Especially for what feels like such a long period. Believe me, my natural position is every bit as negative as the next man 🙂. I’m just giving GP the benefit of the doubt, until the summer. And my personal experience was that, having watched the game again cold this morning, we were better than the recent performances against Fulham x 2, Bournemouth, Forest etc. (thought we were ok against Liverpool)

[Holymoly]

3 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

He's being subbed every game which is very telling and wouldn't be getting a start at all if Chilwell was fully fit. Looks closer to a bargain basement £6 million player than one which cost a whopping 60 million.

 

 

As I've already said Cucurella was only ever acquired as a backup to Chilwell. Unfortunately since he's been with us he's been required to be #1 left back. It's no surprise that is subbed early on in order to ease Chilwell back in. 

[My Blood Is Blue]

1 hour ago, McCreadie said:

That’s all good and point taken. It’s massively disappointing to not be winning games. Especially for what feels like such a long period. Believe me, my natural position is every bit as negative as the next man 🙂. I’m just giving GP the benefit of the doubt, until the summer. And my personal experience was that, having watched the game again cold this morning, we were better than the recent performances against Fulham x 2, Bournemouth, Forest etc. (thought we were ok against Liverpool)

I do agree that we saw some improvements, but these improvements need to be coming with some results very soon as well, otherwise we’re going to be drifting into accepting mediocrity, which none of us want. It is after all a results based business.

Much of my frustrations from yesterdays match were not new things since Potter has been here, it’s things that we’ve seen for years now… switching off after going 1-0 up, dominating possession and chances and only scoring one whilst our opponents seem to only need a couple of half chances against us to get a goal and our lack of ruthlessness in the final 3rd.

In fairness we did see some improvement in the final 3rd with players willing to at least attempt that final pass and I’m hopeful that once we can get players latching on to a couple of those chances and getting a few goals, we may well start seeing more and more go in.

[Thiago97]

2 hours ago, Holymoly said:

As I've already said Cucurella was only ever acquired as a backup to Chilwell. Unfortunately since he's been with us he's been required to be #1 left back. It's no surprise that is subbed early on in order to ease Chilwell back in. 

This isn’t true though is it. No one genuinely believes we swooped in to compete with City and buy Cucurella , to be a back up for Chilwell.

He was acquired to provide strong competition in that area and not go into the season with Chilwell only, with Alonso leaving the club.

We could have found a perfectly good backup , if that was the mandate, for a quarter of the fee paid for Cucurella.

[Thiago97]

2 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

I do agree that we saw some improvements, but these improvements need to be coming with some results very soon as well, otherwise we’re going to be drifting into accepting mediocrity, which none of us want. It is after all a results based business.

Much of my frustrations from yesterdays match were not new things since Potter has been here, it’s things that we’ve seen for years now… switching off after going 1-0 up, dominating possession and chances and only scoring one whilst our opponents seem to only need a couple of half chances against us to get a goal and our lack of ruthlessness in the final 3rd.

In fairness we did see some improvement in the final 3rd with players willing to at least attempt that final pass and I’m hopeful that once we can get players latching on to a couple of those chances and getting a few goals, we may well start seeing more and more go in.

I think what you described here are the improvements. They may only be minor improvements right now, but it is some progress. The start of the improvement came with Fulham away. We played much better, we actually worked the opposition goalkeeper for a change and likely would have picked up a result , but for the red card.

The defence has improved since Badiashille came into the fold. The midfield has started to look better and harder to bypass having legs in there that Gallagher has added, plus it’s already clear that Enzo adds far more steel than Jorginho does. We have now escaped the lure of falling back on Jorginho as an option, which I believe has stalled progress for a long time now.

We again worked the Fabianski more yesterday, than we have done opposition keepers for quite a while now. Felix and Havertz look like a partnership that could flourish, they already seem to be linking up reasonably well. 
I’m certainly not in the pro Potter camp, but I do also feel we are close to going on a decent run of form. I actually think Dortmund will be the catalyst for this good run this week. I think we will come back with a good result and performance. Confidence is such an underestimated thing in sport, I believe once we pick up a couple of wins in the next few games, we will see players relax more, and play more naturally with fluidity.

This still don’t mean Potter is the right man mid-long term and knee jerk reactions should be avoided when the good run comes. I am confident the whole situation will look much better by the time early-mid March is here. I’m happy to be shot down in flames if I am wrong on this over the next few weeks.