West Ham United 1 Chelsea 1

[Holymoly]

48 minutes ago, Miguelito07 said:

Just to add to the points above - has anyone noticed how (more) crap we are after half-time? It must be a snooze fest in those 15 minutes

I think this is where I am most disappointed with the coaching staff (that and proactive substitutions or rather lack thereof). It's been said before but the first half is down to the players while the second is down to what the coach says at half time.

[east lower]

1 hour ago, Bob Singleton said:

While I don't doubt that opposition managers are 'enjoying' playing against us at the moment, this is just another form of mindless Cucurella bashing. He received what was in essence a hospital pass and lost the ball. One can argue until the cows come home whether he is to be blamed for that. What cannot be argued, however, is that a good 15 seconds elapses before the goal is scored, and that is entirely down to both Reece James and Noni Madueke not doing their jobs on the right. Neither tracked their man, and ultimately Reece James allowing Emerson a free run into the area led to the goal.

My point is that GP isn't doing anything to tactically alter things. If the opposition can see it, why can't GP and his array of coaches? Potter has two choices, do something to counter what the opposition are doing or do nothing, he appeared to do the latter and we paid the price for that - Bad choice.

If you apply the basic rule of defending for any defender and full-backs particularly is 'Stop the cross'. If we'd stopped the cross, we'd stop the goal being scored. Whatever James or Madueke do is secondary. Who was at fault for not stopping the cross, people can make their own minds up. WHU targeted our left probably because James at 75% is still more difficult to get at/get by than Cucurella.

GP has publicly stated that Cucurella isn't in his best form and had some personal issues effecting him, so what would you do? Again, he has two choices get him out of the limelight and let him get his issues resolved and ease him back in when the team are performing at a better level or feed him to the wolves and let him get even more stick - because the latter is what's happening. He'd be better off, sticking Dave at left-back if GP was thinking of getting Chilwell fit and ready to replace him. 

Default mode at left-back is sideways or backwards anyway so it would have made little difference. I have also watched Cucurella starve Mudrych of the ball for two games on the trot. You can see that the earlier you get Mudrych the ball, the more chance he'll have of getting by or past a full-back. By the time Cucurella decides he might just give ball to Mudrych, the opposition has had the time to double-up. This was particularly evident with a defence minded Moyes side on Saturday, where they even brought a third-man back.

Our team is is a shockingly bad run of form and results and our manager doesn't seem able to turn things around for 90minutes let alone for a few games. The CL has seen Potter's best performances thus far and I am hoping that applies this week, although if we do not beat Southampton on Saturday, things might start becoming more vocal and uncomfortable for TB and Co.

[jasonb]

I'll give him to 11th March. 

Think by then we will have had back either Kovacic or Zakaria to partner Enzo and the new lads will have a better understanding. 

[ROTG]

4 hours ago, Holymoly said:

Different club now mate. Different owners, with a different view on how to win consistently without having to reinvent the wheel every time a manager changes. Graeme Potter would never have even got an interview under Abramovich. The fact that he is in post means that Clearlake is not about to use the previous regime's blueprint. We'd all better get used to that otherwise we will stress ourselves into an early grave.

On the other hand. 
when the shareholder see the revenue coffers from sponsors drying up because of the clubs mid table mediocrity. Then they might start ascertain some pressure.  

[xceleryx]

9 hours ago, east lower said:

Default mode at left-back is sideways or backwards anyway so it would have made little difference. I have also watched Cucurella starve Mudrych of the ball for two games on the trot. You can see that the earlier you get Mudrych the ball, the more chance he'll have of getting by or past a full-back. By the time Cucurella decides he might just give ball to Mudrych, the opposition has had the time to double-up. This was particularly evident with a defence minded Moyes side on Saturday, where they even brought a third-man back.

Just on this bit specifically, there's a video going around comprised of all the times Cucurella had the ball and didn't pass to Mudryk. While the intention of it was to highlight Cucurella's poor usage, what it actually shown light on was the positioning of Mudryk to be a recipient of a pass. In most instances he was often hugging the sideline with a man directly on him and with no real space other than back inside. A pass could've been forced into him but if the team emphasis is being placed on retaining possession then Cucurella playing a safer higher percentage pass backwards or sideways fits the wider objective. If a pass was forced into Mudryk he'd often only have two options - cut back inside into traffic with a man directly pressuring him, or to lay the ball back to Cucurella himself. Even if Cucurella wanted to then overlap it would be possible because of just how wide Mudryk's positioning is, leaving those underlapping runs we saw our wingbacks making under Tuchel which isn't as practical in a back four as it leaves the wings exposed should possession be lost. 

There's obviously a shortage of chemistry at present as expected with new players, so maybe that understanding will grow. Not saying that Cucurella can't improve in this area mind you, he could be a more decisive like he was earlier in the season but for whatever reason we're not seeing that from either fullback right now. 

[east lower]

7 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Just on this bit specifically, there's a video going around comprised of all the times Cucurella had the ball and didn't pass to Mudryk. While the intention of it was to highlight Cucurella's poor usage, what it actually shown light on was the positioning of Mudryk to be a recipient of a pass. In most instances he was often hugging the sideline with a man directly on him and with no real space other than back inside. A pass could've been forced into him but if the team emphasis is being placed on retaining possession then Cucurella playing a safer higher percentage pass backwards or sideways fits the wider objective. If a pass was forced into Mudryk he'd often only have two options - cut back inside into traffic with a man directly pressuring him, or to lay the ball back to Cucurella himself. Even if Cucurella wanted to then overlap it would be possible because of just how wide Mudryk's positioning is, leaving those underlapping runs we saw our wingbacks making under Tuchel which isn't as practical in a back four as it leaves the wings exposed should possession be lost. 

There's obviously a shortage of chemistry at present as expected with new players, so maybe that understanding will grow. Not saying that Cucurella can't improve in this area mind you, he could be a more decisive like he was earlier in the season but for whatever reason we're not seeing that from either fullback right now. 

I’ve seen a video showing the ‘lowlights’. Those can be misleading though, Azpi does similar these days.

I’m basing what I say next on what I see from the stands and from coaching received. Cucurella invariably doesn’t get his body shape correct for a forward pass when he’s receiving the ball, open your body so that you can see where you can pass forward to. Instead he faces square on to where he’s getting the ball from, this costs him a second or two that are precious at that level. 
 

Shame, as his first few games looked promising. He’s not offering the team much right now and the other pros will know this. Potter is doing him no favours by selecting him. Problem for Potter is that Chilwell struggles to stay fit and has done for two seasons, not wholly dissimilar to his injury record at Leicester if I recall correctly? Also Hall is very raw and open to being targeted, at least with Hall he’ll offer attacking threats. Azpi is the obvious choice, he’s a better defender, even now. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by east lower

[xceleryx]

12 minutes ago, east lower said:

I’ve seen a video showing the ‘lowlights’. Those can be misleading though, Azpi does similar these days.

I’m basing what I say next on what I see from the stands and from coaching received. Cucurella invariably doesn’t get his body shape correct for a forward pass when he’s receiving the ball, open your body so that you can see where you can pass forward to. Instead he faces square on to where he’s getting the ball from, this costs him a second or two that are precious at that level. 

Shame, as his first few games looked promising. He’s not offering the team much right now and the other pros will know this now. Potter is doing him no favours now. Problem for Potter is that Chilwell struggles to stay fit and has done for two seasons, not wholly dissimilar to his injury record at Leicester if I recall correctly?

You take a look at his positioning though on the pitch, it's generally deeper and more infield. When that's the sort of areas he's largely getting the ball in, its naturally going to have an impact on being able to open himself up to play passes forward and outside. Couple that with Mudryk not necessarily helping the cause right now with his own positioning to receive the ball, it's not a huge shock that progressive play down the left has been hampered.

There's also  passing map of Cucurella out there that lays everything out, the one big take away is that the majority of his progressive passes all have come about when he was higher up the pitch. It almost looks as if by playing this sort of deeper faux LCB/DM role has had negative implications in other areas of his game. Before he was taken off in the second half we did see a couple of occasions where Cucurella did push on into the final third, including a pretty decent cross being played into the box that ended up cleared. That was more reminiscent of the player we saw in the first few games under Tuchel. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. But it may be worth keeping an eye on moving forward. 

As for Chilwell, he's another problem for different reasons. 

[east lower]

31 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

You take a look at his positioning though on the pitch, it's generally deeper and more infield. When that's the sort of areas he's largely getting the ball in, its naturally going to have an impact on being able to open himself up to play passes forward and outside. Couple that with Mudryk not necessarily helping the cause right now with his own positioning to receive the ball, it's not a huge shock that progressive play down the left has been hampered.

There's also  passing map of Cucurella out there that lays everything out, the one big take away is that the majority of his progressive passes all have come about when he was higher up the pitch. It almost looks as if by playing this sort of deeper faux LCB/DM role has had negative implications in other areas of his game. Before he was taken off in the second half we did see a couple of occasions where Cucurella did push on into the final third, including a pretty decent cross being played into the box that ended up cleared. That was more reminiscent of the player we saw in the first few games under Tuchel. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. But it may be worth keeping an eye on moving forward. 

As for Chilwell, he's another problem for different reasons. 

I've seen that passing map also, now whether it's because I'm an old dinosaur all that shows me is that his default is sideways/back. That video showed advanced positions in the opposition half where he does the same thing. It might be his mindset, it might be the coaching - either way it's not helping us get the ball forward more quickly. When we do get it forward, the opposition defences are set.

I was at Anfield and watched Mudrych there, in my mind that shows that whilst Mudrych is still acclimatising, he has the necessary tools to be a real danger and where else would you want a wide player but out with his feet next to the touchline? He's got enough pace that if the opposition want to play a high defensive line, he can make an out to in run for a ball through the defence. 

 

[boratsbrother]

It's not just Chelsea fans who are critical of Cucu's performances. Fans of other teams are saying how poor he is and in almost every game he plays the commentators mention how much he's struggling.

I also don't buy this "personal problems" he's having as an excuse for his poor performances. Lots of sportsmen/women and people in every walk of life have personal problems to deal with, some of them serious with a loved one in very bad health, but they are still able to go to work and do their job well.

Buster Douglas lost his mum just before he  fought Mike Tyson, but Douglas went out there and beat the crap of the unbeaten Tyson. So there's a good sporting example of that.

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, boratsbrother said:

It's not just Chelsea fans who are critical of Cucu's performances. Fans of other teams are saying how poor he is and in almost every game he plays the commentators mention how much he's struggling.

I also don't buy this "personal problems" he's having as an excuse for his poor performances. Lots of sportsmen/women and people in every walk of life have personal problems to deal with, some of them serious with a loved one in very bad health, but they are still able to go to work and do their job well.

Buster Douglas lost his mum just before he  fought Mike Tyson, but Douglas went out there and beat the crap of the unbeaten Tyson. So there's a good sporting example of that.

I would pay zero attention to opinions of other fans. Majority of fans watch their own club predominantly, they wouldn’t have a clue what goes on with other clubs. Pundits in the game are a good example of this. Many have inaccurate opinions of Chelsea, because they don’t know nor understand the club in detail, like people who follow them daily and have for years.

I would say this example is far from good too. An athlete who is paid to punch people goes into a fight with ranging emotions, probably including , sadness, frustration , rage , inspiration…..goes on to land a lucky punch . It’s a terrible example. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Thiago97
Lucky punch unfair…..but Tyson beat himself through no prep

[boratsbrother]

16 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I would pay zero attention to opinions of other fans. Majority of fans watch their own club predominantly, they wouldn’t have a clue what goes on with other clubs. Pundits in the game are a good example of this. Many have inaccurate opinions of Chelsea, because they don’t know nor understand the club in detail, like people who follow them daily and have for years.

I would say this example is far from good too. An athlete who is paid to punch people goes into a fight with ranging emotions, probably including , sadness, frustration , rage , inspiration…..goes on to land a lucky punch . It’s a terrible example. 

You've obviously never seen the fight. Douglas  was  calm and concentrated from the first bell and certainly  did not win by a lucky punch. 

That was just one example off the top of my head and I stand by what I said about people in all different professions go through bad times in their lives but still manage to go to work and do their jobs well. Indeed, going to work can be a bit of release from  what is going on when people are having a bad time.

[xceleryx]

11 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

You've obviously never seen the fight. Douglas  was  calm and concentrated from the first bell and certainly  did not win by a lucky punch. 

That was just one example off the top of my head and I stand by what I said about people in all different professions go through bad times in their lives but still manage to go to work and do their jobs well. Indeed, going to work can be a bit of release from  what is going on when people are having a bad time.

There's also hundreds if not thousands of others that go into their place of employment dealing with a range of personal issues and have their performance suffer, and I can speak to that with personal experience. It's both incredibly ignorant and incentive to cast such a generalised blanket over such a thing. We all handle things differently. 

[Mark Kelly]

4 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

There's also hundreds if not thousands of others that go into their place of employment dealing with a range of personal issues and have their performance suffer, and I can speak to that with personal experience. It's both incredibly ignorant and incentive to cast such a generalised blanket over such a thing. We all handle things differently. 

Potter alluded to personal issues , I believe that Cucurella has just become a father , there could be issues with the baby or his partner could be really missing the help of her family.

It could be something as simple as broken sleep at night with the baby.

We have no idea 

But to me it looks very much like a crisis of confidence which is why he keeps playing the easy ball , especially knowing as he must that the crowd are just waiting for him to drop a clanger. 

Lastly , despite not being in good form at the moment, he's nowhere as bad as he's being made out. 

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, east lower said:

I've seen that passing map also, now whether it's because I'm an old dinosaur all that shows me is that his default is sideways/back. That video showed advanced positions in the opposition half where he does the same thing. It might be his mindset, it might be the coaching - either way it's not helping us get the ball forward more quickly. When we do get it forward, the opposition defences are set.

I was at Anfield and watched Mudrych there, in my mind that shows that whilst Mudrych is still acclimatising, he has the necessary tools to be a real danger and where else would you want a wide player but out with his feet next to the touchline? He's got enough pace that if the opposition want to play a high defensive line, he can make an out to in run for a ball through the defence. 

 

I find it difficult to use the Liverpool game as marker just because they play in a manner that favours us, hence why we tend to always do better against these teams. Games tend to be more open, there's more space and in this particular instance Mudryk was up against a fossilised Milner and the 3000th defensive wonder in the world in Trent. Everything was more favourable, compare that to West Ham where it was men behind the ball and tighter marking. I recall very few times Mudryk was actually in space to receive the ball and unpressed, able to turn, and then attack. 

Re the positioning aspect. It's not so much about Mudryk taking up bad positions per se. Naturally we want out wide men wide, which is a hugely refreshing thing to be seeing after years of narrow attacking midfield like "wide" players. It's more that hugging the sideline deal limit ones space, often you'd see the West Ham defender right on Mudryk's heels not allowing him the opportunity to receive the ball and turn. We're going to see more sides do this purely because he's so damn quick defenders can't afford to be turned. It's up to Mudryk (and others) to time their movement, just as much as it is for us to get them the ball quicker. Again, this may just be a chemistry thing for the time being until everyone gets familiar with how each other players. We'll have to wait and see.

[Thiago97]

24 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

You've obviously never seen the fight. Douglas  was  calm and concentrated from the first bell and certainly  did not win by a lucky punch. 

That was just one example off the top of my head and I stand by what I said about people in all different professions go through bad times in their lives but still manage to go to work and do their jobs well. Indeed, going to work can be a bit of release from  what is going on when people are having a bad time.

The lucky punch comment was unfair. It’s still a terrible example and in no way comparable with what may be happening with Cucurella. So what if others have issues and manage them well. Everyone is different and deals with things differently.

It’s just black and white ramblings as usual. 

[xceleryx]

Just now, Mark Kelly said:

Potter alluded to personal issues , I believe that Cucurella has just become a father , there could be issues with the baby or his partner could be really missing the help of her family.

It could be something as simple as broken sleep at night with the baby.

We have no idea 

But to me it looks very much like a crisis of confidence which is why he keeps playing the easy ball , especially knowing as he must that the crowd are just waiting for him to drop a clanger. 

Lastly , despite not being in good form at the moment, he's nowhere as bad as he's being made out. 

It's been well documented he's had a few things going on behind the scenes, all of which will have no doubt impacted his preparation and performances - we can visibly see it for one. Whether that's still ongoing or not we don't know, but when these things may have been at their peak its enough to dig the initial hole. To then couple that with the teams awful performances in that time, that hole gets deeper and harder to get out of, leaving him where he is now. Having the lazy media and large percentage of the dim online fanbase pile in on top doesn't help. 

I agree with the last line and have said as much myself. We all know he hasn't been great, Cucurella will be the first to likely admit that himself, but it's actually becoming a bit of a joke now that he's being singled out for just about everything. I compared it with the criticism Alonso once got, or like with Jorginho at times, and even to a degree Mount. He actually defended quite well in the West Ham game, particularly in a few isolated instances with Antonio. Of course, no one said boo about any of this. 

[flllerywhereru2]

11 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Just on this bit specifically, there's a video going around comprised of all the times Cucurella had the ball and didn't pass to Mudryk. While the intention of it was to highlight Cucurella's poor usage, what it actually shown light on was the positioning of Mudryk to be a recipient of a pass. In most instances he was often hugging the sideline with a man directly on him and with no real space other than back inside. A pass could've been forced into him but if the team emphasis is being placed on retaining possession then Cucurella playing a safer higher percentage pass backwards or sideways fits the wider objective. If a pass was forced into Mudryk he'd often only have two options - cut back inside into traffic with a man directly pressuring him, or to lay the ball back to Cucurella himself. Even if Cucurella wanted to then overlap it would be possible because of just how wide Mudryk's positioning is, leaving those underlapping runs we saw our wingbacks making under Tuchel which isn't as practical in a back four as it leaves the wings exposed should possession be lost. 

There's obviously a shortage of chemistry at present as expected with new players, so maybe that understanding will grow. Not saying that Cucurella can't improve in this area mind you, he could be a more decisive like he was earlier in the season but for whatever reason we're not seeing that from either fullback right now. 

Well said, i saw that footagae and thought exactly the same. In the modern game losing the ball is often very costly, actually Reece James though a touch more progressive also cut back and kept posession several times.

[boratsbrother]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

There's also hundreds if not thousands of others that go into their place of employment dealing with a range of personal issues and have their performance suffer, and I can speak to that with personal experience. It's both incredibly ignorant and incentive to cast such a generalised blanket over such a thing. We all handle things differently. 

Over the last decade I have been working with and been in contact with people from all walks of life who've been through some truly awful events. From people who'd been  involved in the invasion of Iraq ( seeing a friend being blown up in front of him)to others being victims of  very serious abuse.  So I too can speak from personal experiences.  Without exception, every single one of them found solace in going to work and working well.

For what it's worth. I also had a complete breakdown and didn't handle it at all well. Not handling it well made my problems  a hell of a lot worse and last a lot longer than they would have done had I handled lthem like all the other people I knew who'd gone through their problems. 

[Mark Kelly]

4 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Over the last decade I have been working with and been in contact with people from all walks of life who've been through some truly awful events. From people who'd been  involved in the invasion of Iraq ( seeing a friend being blown up in front of him)to others being victims of  very serious abuse.  So I too can speak from personal experiences.  Without exception, every single one of them found solace in going to work and working well.

For what it's worth. I also had a complete breakdown and didn't handle it at all well. Not handling it well made my problems  a hell of a lot worse and last a lot longer than they would have done had I handled lthem like all the other people I knew who'd gone through their problems. 

I think routine can help when you have been hit for six 

Not sure "Cucurella you useless mop headed berk" helps anyone.

[boratsbrother]

4 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think routine can help when you have been hit for six 

Not sure "Cucurella you useless mop headed berk" helps anyone.

I found that talking very frankly to those who you trust worked best and talking to others who've gone through, or were going through their own problems. Bottling it up is the worst thing to do, imho. 

Agree about the name calling. Just stick to his performances! Also, no matter poor a player is for the team, fans should never get on their backs during a game.

[exiledblue]

On 13/02/2023 at 09:10, martin1905 said:

Only thing wrong with Cucurella is his price tag. He's nowhere near as bad as people are making out but it's no wonder City walked away at £30m.

A ridiculous amount of money but it's really not his fault.

He doesnt do any job, its not only about the money.

He is not a defender (no idea where the attacker is, no positional sense). He is not a wing back (to slow going forward and backwards and then watches the ball go by him in the other direction). He is not a midfielder (Cant pass accurately), Not a winger (final ball is terrible).

I fail to see anything he can actually do well and FFS cut his hair so he spends less time adjusting it.