Borussia Dortmund 1 Chelsea 0

[kev61]

23 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Because you're completing ignoring the skillset of the player in favour of their reputation. 

Would Kante be a nice player to have, of f-ing course, but he's not the solution to any of our problems either. We're not missing a ball-chasing midfielder that's technically limited, nor is positionally disciplined enough to sit deep and unlock Enzo. 

Kante was a brilliant player, but we're better serviced with a different profile of midfielder given the makeup of the current team. Not that shocking of a take.

You're off your rocker fella.Kante is a one off.He is in decline for sure,but to say a fully fit Kante would not make a difference to our current team is nonsense in the extreme.

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

But you do, at least have the balls to admit it.

lol. You could have the balls to make clear how I do that.

[Sciatika]

Reading the UEFA page, I think only Mount has got to three yellow cards and will miss the return.

Player stats | UEFA Champions League 2022/23 | UEFA.com

[Mark Kelly]

Just see the highlights , how we lost that game is beyond me. 

[Thiago97]

It is so frustrating to lose a match when you are the better team. The performance was exactly as I expected, but the result means we have a difficult 2nd leg to try and overcome.

I thought a number of positive performances to take form the game. I though Koulibaly came into a pressurised situation with some scrutiny on him and performed very well. He looks much more at home in the CL and a back four, rather than wide in a three in the PL. RLC had a good decent game, I said a few weeks back there is no reason why he cannot perform an Obi Mikel role as a short term gap. It's Obi Mikel light from defensive hold position, but it is proving useful.

Chilwell first half was exactly the performance that Cucurella gets slated for. Chilwell 2nd half was much better and that's closer to the Chilwell we need to see. Ziyech was ok and did a job, but I thought he was frustratingly wasteful at times.

Whilst Kai continues to frustrate, he and Felix do have a partnership that has seemed natural from their first game together. They link up well and seem to enjoy playing alongside each other. I just hope we can be see the rewards with some patience with these two, and they will start to kill games off in the coming games ahead.

Mudryk needs time to adapt. He has shown flashes of being a real threat, the one negative I have noticed though. He rarely seems to collect the ball under his control and first touch can be a bit heavy. In the games he has played so far, a number of times he looks to have a chance to break and does not take control of the ball. Possibly trying to hard and to eager to break with his pace.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

You're off your rocker fella.Kante is a one off.He is in decline for sure,but to say a fully fit Kante would not make a difference to our current team is nonsense in the extreme.

Nowhere did I dismiss Kante's quality as a player, or that he isn't a unique player in his own regard. I argued his value to the side in respects to what we're lacking and in need of. As such, Kante unfortunately isn't the style of midfielder we're needing for the aforementioned reasons in my last post. We'd be far better served with more of a Makelele, or even a Matic type than a ball chasing positionally free player like Kante. 

Whether you choose to agree with that or not, it still remains a situation that has more nuance than you're giving it. 

[FrankLampard8]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

You're off your rocker fella.Kante is a one off.He is in decline for sure,but to say a fully fit Kante would not make a difference to our current team is nonsense in the extreme.

No he's completely right. Might we be a be a bit better with a fit Kante in the team? Yeah sure just because he is an all time great midfielder. However, the profile of player he is isn't the perfect fit for this team. We would probably be better with a slightly worse player who screens the back four. The best 11 players don't always make the best team. 

[xceleryx]

9 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I though Koulibaly came into a pressurised situation with some scrutiny on him and performed very well. He looks much more at home in the CL and a back four, rather than wide in a three in the PL.

Agree. Thought he was one of our best players and made a few important challenges to break play up. He still needs to curb his aggressive nature a little, suffers a little in the same way as David Luiz  in this regard. As such he gets caught out more in the Premier League because teams tend to press harder, where there's that additional space and time in Europe which allows him to get back or for someone to cover when needed. A step in the right direction anyway. 

10 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

RLC had a good decent game, I said a few weeks back there is no reason why he cannot perform an Obi Mikel role as a short term gap. It's Obi Mikel light from defensive hold position, but it is proving useful.

I thought Ruben's first half was pretty poor outside of one or two moments. His off-ball work leaves so much to be desired at times, he genuinely just walks around looking lost on where he needs to be. He was better in the second half, but realistically he shouldn't be anywhere near the side if we're to be honest with ourselves. 

[Thiago97]

Just now, xceleryx said:

Agree. Thought he was one of our best players and made a few important challenges to break play up. He still needs to curb his aggressive nature a little, suffers a little in the same way as David Luiz  in this regard. As such he gets caught out more in the Premier League because teams tend to press harder, where there's that additional space and time in Europe which allows him to get back or for someone to cover when needed. A step in the right direction anyway. 

I thought Ruben's first half was pretty poor outside of one or two moments. His off-ball work leaves so much to be desired at times, he genuinely just walks around looking lost on where he needs to be. He was better in the second half, but realistically he shouldn't be anywhere near the side if we're to be honest with ourselves. 

From next season I agree. Given the options we have available now though, he is the only option we have who can allow Enzo more freedom.

Gallagher lacks the technique and not his game. Mount natural instinct is to get forward. Kovacic best when allowed freedom to run with the ball. The only other option in short term is Zakaria and he is injured, though again its not really his game to sit and hold.

We know this position needs addressing, I just think right now RLC is the only valid option. Unless Chalobah was given a good there, but again I think technique and lack of quality passing would end up costing us.

[Bison]

1. Why don't we press well as a team?
2. Why are our defenders so deep all the time?
3. Why are there huge distances between the defenders, the midfielders and the forwards?
4. Why are there never any tactical tweaks done in game and only subs when players tire?
5. What does Potter actually do during the week?

 

[xceleryx]

2 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

From next season I agree. Given the options we have available now though, he is the only option we have who can allow Enzo more freedom.

Gallagher lacks the technique and not his game. Mount natural instinct is to get forward. Kovacic best when allowed freedom to run with the ball. The only other option in short term is Zakaria and he is injured, though again its not really his game to sit and hold.

We know this position needs addressing, I just think right now RLC is the only valid option. Unless Chalobah was given a good there, but again I think technique and lack of quality passing would end up costing us.

Don't disagree if we're playing a pivot, Loftus-Cheek has the technical calmness that the other don't so it does make him the best of a bad bunch. 

While I prefer him in defence and think he does look better there, I wouldn't object to seeing Chalobah get a run as that holding type of player just to see how it looks. 

[xceleryx]

4 minutes ago, Bison said:

1. Why don't we press well as a team?
2. Why are our defenders so deep all the time?
3. Why are there huge distances between the defenders, the midfielders and the forwards?
4. Why are there never any tactical tweaks done in game and only subs when players tire?
5. What does Potter actually do during the week?

 

1. We look to have moved away from the intensive press we displayed under Tuchel that was often lead by both Kante and Mount, and to a degree Werner when he played. I think we're opting to remain more structured and organised because of the midfield situation. 
2. The deeper defence is the trade off with moving to a back four currently. We can't play a higher line with Thiago Silva or a proper holding player to be trusted in sitting and shielding the defence. 
3. Could be a few reasons why, with one of the main ones being all the personnel changes made. Our wide player actually stay wide now, rather than just drift into the midfield like we'd see with Pulisic or Mount when playing there. Having a clogged corridor like we would've had meant the lines between each third usually closed as players looked to find space, that's not needed as much now so players can stay in their more natural areas and that's increased the distance between them. 
4. A long standing Potter problem, who knows. 
5. Likely eats three good meals a day.

[Holymoly]

9 hours ago, kev61 said:

Well seeing as I haven't got Jorginho to moan about anymore....Havertz slides into that role rather nicely😃.

I can't even criticise Ziyech tonight(plenty of time for that in the future I'm sure!).

Tonight was the first time I moved forward in my seat,not quite on the edge - but overall I see progress.

Quite honestly Zyech has seemed the most motivated I've ever seen him since the PSG fiasco. Havertz on the other hand is becoming ever more ineffective. Quite apart from the lack of goals he's drifting around the pitch like the gormless village idiot. As soon as we get a competant striker/goal scorer he is surplus to requirements in my book as he provides very little to the team in that position.

James and to a lesser extent Chilwell were still playing in 3rd gear, Mudryk doesn't have a footballing brain on top of his impressive physical attributes and Cucurella looks better coming off the bench. Mount seems to have come in for a bit of criticism for getting a yellow card and suspension but maybe that sort of attitude is what is missing from our game (that and goals obviously). All too often last night I saw us hurdling confrontations with defenders and the goalkeeper when we could have been leaving a bit on the opposition to make them think twice next time.

Progress, but we need to start scoring so that we have a chance of winning games.

[Holymoly]

52 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

A long standing Potter problem, who knows. 

Last night we were being effective. The only reason we weren't three up by the 65th minute was dreadful finishing and we ain't got a goal machine to bring on to change that.

[Mark Kelly]

10 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

Quite honestly Zyech has seemed the most motivated I've ever seen him since the PSG fiasco. Havertz on the other hand is becoming ever more ineffective. Quite apart from the lack of goals he's drifting around the pitch like the gormless village idiot. As soon as we get a competant striker/goal scorer he is surplus to requirements in my book as he provides very little to the team in that position.

James and to a lesser extent Chilwell were still playing in 3rd gear, Mudryk doesn't have a footballing brain on top of his impressive physical attributes and Cucurella looks better coming off the bench. Mount seems to have come in for a bit of criticism for getting a yellow card and suspension but maybe that sort of attitude is what is missing from our game (that and goals obviously). All too often last night I saw us hurdling confrontations with defenders and the goalkeeper when we could have been leaving a bit on the opposition to make them think twice next time.

Progress, but we need to start scoring so that we have a chance of winning games.

Yes , we are a bit toothless in the tackle and to be honest a bit wet but I think this is borne out of the way referees treat us in the Premier league . Dortmund were full of all the usual tricks and slyness , us not so much.

[RDCW]

2 hours ago, kev61 said:

You're off your rocker fella.Kante is a one off.He is in decline for sure,but to say a fully fit Kante would not make a difference to our current team is nonsense in the extreme.

Prime Makelele even better in this team.

[boratsbrother]

7 hours ago, kev61 said:

Mudryke is on the verge of anonymity just like Werner.

 

I have similar Werner vibes about Mudryk, but it's far too early to say he's actually on the verge of being another Werner.

I might be in a minority of one, but I also have concerns about Enzo. Again, very early days, but to me he looks like he'll give us similar problems to those which Jorginho caused -  Good on the ball, but another slow midfielder who won't score or create much in the final third and at the other end of the pitch doesn't provide sufficient protection for the defence. That could have been ,Jorginho chasing shadows for their goal last night.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2023 by boratsbrother

[martin1905]

Not read any of this thread yet, I like to come in blind so as not to be potentially be swayed by others.

A better performance overall but a performance for me which is about par, at best. No doubt it was a big improvement and if that's how people want to judge it then I'm sure many will be happy with it but it was an improvement from a team that sits 15th in the premier League form table with 1 win in 6 and 2 in 13 so the bar is low. And we lost.

It's also the third game, only 3 games I hear you all cry, with the new players and we have W1 D1 L1 and scored 1.

So yes an improvement in terms of performance but still a loss and an improvement on absolute garbage. I think it's also worth questioning if this improvement is down to anything the coaching team has done or is it just that we have better players now. Enzo and Felix are such a huge upgrade they were always going to make a big difference. I say this as yes individuals have played much better, mainly due to being better players but there is still so much wrong as a team.

We still don't press yet we don't sit back and counter,. normally it's one or the other yet we don't seem to really do anything without the ball.

There were huge gaps between the defence and midfield and midfield and attack.

There was again far too  many sideways passes, the ball has to go out to the wide players quicker. Possession football is great if there is an end product but we get to the final third and just go backwards and that's the hardest part of playing that way. Keeping the ball in your defensive and middle thirds is easy it's what you do with it in the final third that counts and we still have no idea how to open teams up.

Felix's corners were incredible, every single one, in the previous game too and yet I don't think we won a single header. There was no movement at all.

Their goal was schoolboy stuff, absolutely shocking.

These are things that don't take time, they are the sort of things that should have been sorted out from day one, it's nothing to do with the old squad, the new players or injuries it's just inept coaching. We are 24 games in now under Potter and the lack of any meaningful improvement in basic, key, areas is a huge concern.

 

 

 

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, Holymoly said:

Last night we were being effective. The only reason we weren't three up by the 65th minute was dreadful finishing and we ain't got a goal machine to bring on to change that.

Indeed, and I have no qualms about the performance itself.

An observation if you will though is that we once more looked better against a side that played open higher tempo football, much like the Liverpool performance. We need to be bringing this level to the other games where sides get back behind the ball and the tempo drops. 

[xceleryx]

16 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

I have similar Werner vibes about Mudryk, but it's far too early to say he's actually on the verge of being another Werner.

I might be in a minority of one, but I also have concerns about Enzo. Again, very early days, but to me he looks like he'll give us similar problems to those which Jorginho caused -  Good on the ball, but another slow midfielder who won't score or create much in the final third and at the other end of the pitch doesn't provide sufficient protection for the defence. That could have been ,Jorginho chasing shadows for their goal last night.

Re Enzo: Well yeah, if he's going to be the deepest midfielder tasked with protecting the defence then he's going to be found out on occasions, that was always a known aspect. This is a part of why we're needing a holding type of midfielder, this shifts that responsibility away from Enzo and lets him push higher up the pitch where he's far more effective. Right now though we've not got much choice but to play him in this deeper role. The idea that some had in which Enzo was a like-for-like Jorginho replacement were always misinformed. 

Even in this deeper role he's already shown to be by far and away out most creative midfielder this season in the handful of games he's played. 

[martin1905]

5 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Re Enzo: Well yeah, if he's going to be the deepest midfielder tasked with protecting the defence then he's going to be found out on occasions, that was always a known aspect. This is a part of why we're needing a holding type of midfielder, this shifts that responsibility away from Enzo and lets him push higher up the pitch where he's far more effective. Right now though we've not got much choice but to play him in this deeper role. The idea that some had in which Enzo was a like-for-like Jorginho replacement were always misinformed. 

Even in this deeper role he's already shown to be by far and away out most creative midfielder this season in the handful of games he's played. 

Any criticism of Enzo is just nonsense, especially coming from someone that didn't watch the game.

He's class, pure class.

[ROTG]

11 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Any criticism of Enzo is just nonsense, especially coming from someone that didn't watch the game.

He's class, pure class.

How was the trip and the Dortmund experience?

TB was on TV take photos of the Dortmund wall. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by ROTG

[NoblyBobly]

10 hours ago, kev61 said:

Well seeing as I haven't got Jorginho to moan about anymore....Havertz slides into that role rather nicely😃.

I can't even criticise Ziyech tonight(plenty of time for that in the future I'm sure!).

Tonight was the first time I moved forward in my seat,not quite on the edge - but overall I see progress.

Well I expect a few more to be wiggling in there seat at bit more soon because all we are short of is a number 9 . Over the last few games I have seen glimpses of where we might be heading ( too much negativity on here imo). In his interview Potter quite rightly pointed that no one was waxing lyrical about Brighton for the first 6 months he was there. In fact he’s had the two extremes here. First he’s had to deal with a never ending injury list and now an influx of new players just as all the injuries come back. He’s a rather calm character but I’m sure his mind is working over time on piecing things together.   

[NoblyBobly]

3 hours ago, Bison said:

1. Why don't we press well as a team?
2. Why are our defenders so deep all the time?
3. Why are there huge distances between the defenders, the midfielders and the forwards?
4. Why are there never any tactical tweaks done in game and only subs when players tire?
5. What does Potter actually do during the week?

 

6. Why can some not see a big improvement in this team of late , and had luck not deserted us again , we would have beaten a tough German team in their own intimidating ground? 
7. Why can some not see that Potters problem is that we spent half a billion and bought no one who can put the ball in the back of the net? 
 

 

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, boratsbrother said:

I have similar Werner vibes about Mudryk, but it's far too early to say he's actually on the verge of being another Werner.

I might be in a minority of one, but I also have concerns about Enzo. Again, very early days, but to me he looks like he'll give us similar problems to those which Jorginho caused -  Good on the ball, but another slow midfielder who won't score or create much in the final third and at the other end of the pitch doesn't provide sufficient protection for the defence. That could have been ,Jorginho chasing shadows for their goal last night.

 

 

He was up against the fastest player in the Bundesliga who had plenty of space to run into. That's not one of the fastest players in their league, but THE fastest player clocked in the Bundesliga. The same thing would have have happened to any of our players in that situation, probably barring Mudryk .

Enzo already has an assist to his name., but for a great save last night, he would have had a goal to his game too. The comparisons to Jorginho in speed, creativity and goal threat, are frankly ridiculous