Chelsea 0 Manchester City 2

[xceleryx]

53 minutes ago, Floyd25 said:

Yea but he could run all day long and cover every blade of grass, that isn’t going to increase his speed or make him any better at pressing opponents. I like running long distance, doesn’t mean I put in good times compared to top athletes. I think he’s a fairly limited player personally, but he should at least be playing in his natural role, which is as a DLP in my opinion. 

That's a different argument though. People lazily say Enzo "can't run", when the issue is more that he lacks the leg speed and mobility most would prefer. Those that generally take issue with this probably also didn't like Jorginho, Riquelme, Pirlo, Kroos, Kimmich, etc as players either. 

Where he should play, if he should play, how good he is, etc is all subjective at the end of the day. Everyone is going to pass their own judgement and that's of course ones own prerogative.

[Super Kenny Monkou]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Both Nkunku and Palmer have played PLENTY of (good) football in the wide areas, to say they've been shunted is a bit disingenuous also. 

Okay fair point. But you can’t say we would not have been a lot better yesterday if one of them played in the 10 role. The only time my son and I thought we might create something was when Palmer was on the ball.

It is a pile on I agree but he is holding the team back. We finished last season strongly and it is no coincidence he wasn’t playing.

The club have treated some home grown players pretty poorly, why should he escape when contributing very little.

[east lower]

29 minutes ago, Bison said:

Lmao at distance covered. No context, just distance covered. Scraping the barrel. 

Enzo was running slowly at whoever had the ball and they would easily play around him. Several moments of fake pressing throughout the match (running slowly after the ball by himself and then throwing his hands up in the air as if he was being hard done by by the rest of the team). Lot of distance covered though so must be good! 

He's not a good option there but he has to play and there's nowhere else to hide him. 

Enzo has no press resistance and can't get any separation from his markers. He can't receive the ball on the turn or with his back to play while being pressed and find a solution. Playing him at 10 just exposes all of this.

He was a Clearlake buy, they’ve no one to blame but themselves on that, and I don’t think they like to readily admit a £100m+  balls-up. But it seems they are OK with making the other£100+ less effective by accommodating the Argentinian.

He can look good in his national team as international football is played so cautiously with little or no intensity. No wonder the Benfica fans were ambivalent about him leaving. And appointing him as a Captain, god give me strength - can no one at our football club read the room anymore, or are they so ‘clever’ they think doing the opposite of what’s required really smart.

No.1 priority should be his exit and in this window. No.2 priority is that Sanchez is removed from the starting lineup, preferably sold. If the club and the D’sOF (who struggle to direct eating your dessert after your main) want Maresca to succeed then those are ‘musts’.

That will mean more exits are required to cover the losses made on those two, but the first stage of redemption is acknowledging your mistakes and then correcting them.

Conor Gallagher chants going on in the game yesterday too, bet that pleased Mr Bohely, and as for him walking out before the end - disgrace. Show some leadership man.

Oh, Anthony Taylor performed up to his usual standards.

Edited August 19 by east lower

[Thiago97]

34 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

That's a different argument though. People lazily say Enzo "can't run", when the issue is more that he lacks the leg speed and mobility most would prefer. Those that generally take issue with this probably also didn't like Jorginho, Riquelme, Pirlo, Kroos, Kimmich, etc as players either. 

Where he should play, if he should play, how good he is, etc is all subjective at the end of the day. Everyone is going to pass their own judgement and that's of course ones own prerogative.

I think you have hit the nail on the head here really..........none of these players played in the PL (Except the much debated Jorginho for similar reasons to Enzo)

I'm not an Enzo basher and think he has qualities that he offers, the major problem is this league is all about athletes in the positions where Enzo plays. That's the key issue we have here. Yes he can run and he puts a shift in, but this league will just eat you up unless you have excellent athletic ability in midfield and attack. If a player does not have that athletic ability in size or speed, they would have to be truly elite level footballer to make a significant impact here. 

Edit - A good comparison here is Kovacic. Similar size to Enzo, not fast or specifically that athletic either, relatively similar in terms of ability on the ball.......the big difference between the two is Kovacic has much more speed in shorter burst. That acceleration and speed of directional change allows him to compete in the PL, plus he has the stamina to do this for the best part of 90mins. 

Edited August 19 by Thiago97

[Floyd25]

30 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

That's a different argument though. People lazily say Enzo "can't run", when the issue is more that he lacks the leg speed and mobility most would prefer. Those that generally take issue with this probably also didn't like Jorginho, Riquelme, Pirlo, Kroos, Kimmich, etc as players either. 

Well, when I say he can’t run, I mean he can’t run quickly enough and play the pressing game that is required of him in that position.  He has no business belonging in the same sentence as Kroos, Kimmich or Pirlo in my opinion, they all had better attributes than him. I genuinely cannot see why some people hold him in such high regard, and he has only been made captain to try and keep the rest in line after the scandal, but I guess we agree to disagree.

[east lower]

39 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I think you have hit the nail on the head here really..........none of these players played in the PL (Except the much debated Jorginho for similar reasons to Enzo)

I'm not an Enzo basher and think he has qualities that he offers, the major problem is this league is all about athletes in the positions where Enzo plays. That's the key issue we have here. Yes he can run and he puts a shift in, but this league will just eat you up unless you have excellent athletic ability in midfield and attack. If a player does not have that athletic ability in size or speed, they would have to be truly elite level footballer to make a significant impact here. 

Edit - A good comparison here is Kovacic. Similar size to Enzo, not fast or specifically that athletic either, relatively similar in terms of ability on the ball.......the big difference between the two is Kovacic has much more speed in shorter burst. That acceleration and speed of directional change allows him to compete in the PL, plus he has the stamina to do this for the best part of 90mins. 

Three times the player that Fernandez is - And it showed.

Smarter, Faster and stronger. 

Just a a singular example, Fernandez couldn’t score the goal that Kovacic did yesterday. 

Jorginho could counter his lack of speed with his intelligence and positioning skills. He also added value by organisation of those around him, smart too as it helped mask his own deficiencies. Thought he was a smashing player and much undervalued.

No one wins PL titles anymore with limited players like Fernandez in their team.

 

Edited August 19 by east lower

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, Super Kenny Monkou said:

Okay fair point. But you can’t say we would not have been a lot better yesterday if one of them played in the 10 role. The only time my son and I thought we might create something was when Palmer was on the ball.

It is a pile on I agree but he is holding the team back. We finished last season strongly and it is no coincidence he wasn’t playing.

The club have treated some home grown players pretty poorly, why should he escape when contributing very little.

Hard to say, maybe it takes away from other areas by having someone else out wide or maybe whoever ends up as the #10 struggles themselves. It's all guess work to a degree. But yes, I do agree that Palmer getting on the ball was giving us a greater spark. 

There were also other changes that aided the aside beyond just Enzo being out, something I touched on a day or so ago. He also looked brilliant in the first 6 months after he joined, so it's not as if he can't do it either. 

[Sleeping Dave]

1 hour ago, Bison said:

He's not a good option there but he has to play and there's nowhere else to hide him. 

Enzo has no press resistance and can't get any separation from his markers. He can't receive the ball on the turn or with his back to play while being pressed and find a solution. Playing him at 10 just exposes all of this.

I don't disagree. But if he is to play, and let's be honest, there is no way the club will admit defeat for one of their marquee signings, #10 is the only place to hide him. In that position, at least he can utilise his passing range and hurt the opposition. Putting him at CM, at the expense of Caideco or Lavia is daft. His passing won't do any damage there and his habit of misplacing passes becomes much more of an issue. 

Ideally he wouldn't play at all. I think our best starting XI is;

                               GK

James - Disasi - Colwill - Cucurella

                Caicedo - Lavia

      Palmer - Nkunku - LW

                               S

Haven't named GK or S because we need new players there. LW is a toss up between Neto, Sterling and Mudryk. No clear front runner there imo. 

1 hour ago, east lower said:

He was a Clearlake buy, they’ve no one to blame but themselves on that, and I don’t think they like to readily admit a £100m+  balls-up. But it seems they are OK with making the other£100+ less effective by accommodating the Argentinian.

He can look good in his national team as international football is played so cautiously with little or no intensity. No wonder the Benfica fans were ambivalent about him leaving. And appointing him as a Captain, god give me strength - can no one at our football club read the room anymore, or are they so ‘clever’ they think doing the opposite of what’s required really smart.

No.1 priority should be his exit and in this window. No.2 priority is that Sanchez is removed from the starting lineup, preferably sold. If the club and the D’sOF (who struggle to direct eating your dessert after your main) want Maresca to succeed then those are ‘musts’.

That will mean more exits are required to cover the losses made on those two, but the first stage of redemption is acknowledging your mistakes and then correcting them.

Conor Gallagher chants going on in the game yesterday too, bet that pleased Mr Bohely, and as for him walking out before the end - disgrace. Show some leadership man.

 

Fully agree with this. Personally I'd much rather have a Connor Gallagher in the side, back-up to Caicedo/Lavia and the CAM in tough ties like the one yesterday. His pressing game along warrants him being in the squad. So predictable we would miss his athleticism, yet the powers upstairs are completely devoid of any competence in building a squad. 

Selling Chalobah and Gallagher is so daft it beggars belief. 

To make things worse, Enzo had the armband yesterday. It's do ridiculous it's hard to believe. 

[CarefreeMuratcan]

Comparing our games against City last season, it was about the same. We played ok. had chances we didn't take that would have changed the game.

It's a far cry from the seasons (21-22 and 22-23) previous (different set of players) where we didn't lay a glove on them at all.

It's mad that we haven't beaten them since the CL Final though. 10 games since then. 8 losses, 2 draws.

[east lower]

8 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

He also looked brilliant in the first 6 months after he joined, so it's not as if he can't do it either. 

No he didn't, he was almost as ineffective as he is now. 

I cannot remember one critique of his performances from anyone outside of the club that have shown and demonstrated his 'brilliance'.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, Thiago97 said:

I think you have hit the nail on the head here really..........none of these players played in the PL (Except the much debated Jorginho for similar reasons to Enzo)

I'm not an Enzo basher and think he has qualities that he offers, the major problem is this league is all about athletes in the positions where Enzo plays. That's the key issue we have here. Yes he can run and he puts a shift in, but this league will just eat you up unless you have excellent athletic ability in midfield and attack. If a player does not have that athletic ability in size or speed, they would have to be truly elite level footballer to make a significant impact here. 

Edit - A good comparison here is Kovacic. Similar size to Enzo, not fast or specifically that athletic either, relatively similar in terms of ability on the ball.......the big difference between the two is Kovacic has much more speed in shorter burst. That acceleration and speed of directional change allows him to compete in the PL, plus he has the stamina to do this for the best part of 90mins. 

I agree, the dynamic nature of the Premier League does often mean the need for pure athletes in the midfield who can run, more so if pressing football is deployed on top. And if you don't have those athletic qualities there needs to be some other sort of standout quality. Now, maybe this is where Enzo lacks a little more in comparison to say some of the less athletic players that have played within a Premier League midfield - Barry, Xabi Alonso, Fabregas (later on in his career) and Carrick all spring to mind. 

I personally have little issue with Enzo because I like what he does offer for the most part. Sure, I'd like more from him as I no doubt he expects of himself. Not everyone will agree with that and that's fine, I still think we're a better possession side when Enzo is present.

The real task is trying to find his best role within the side, one where the attackers around him still can influence proceedings. Now that Lavia is back, that double pivot and Caicedo should fill some of Enzo's deficiencies, so its arguably the best moment to try and find what works best for all.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, Floyd25 said:

Well, when I say he can’t run, I mean he can’t run quickly enough and play the pressing game that is required of him in that position.  He has no business belonging in the same sentence as Kroos, Kimmich or Pirlo in my opinion, they all had better attributes than him. I genuinely cannot see why some people hold him in such high regard, and he has only been made captain to try and keep the rest in line after the scandal, but I guess we agree to disagree.

That's fair to say when explained, taking "he can't run" at face value can (and has) been interpreted differently. 

The comparison between those players was more to highlight that athletic abilities aren't a must. Sure, Enzo isn't as elite of a passer or as a creative as some of those names, but even if he had those qualities the key complaint about not having the mobility or athleticism would likely still remain. At what point does having enough creativity or passing quality make up the difference? 

End of the day it'll always likely be one of those arguments that see's the goalposts moved, regardless of assists/goals or general impact. A lack of athleticism and perceived "laziness" will always end up being the stick he or similar players are bashed with, more so in the modern Premier League where everyone wants midfield athleticism first.

[xceleryx]

11 minutes ago, east lower said:

No he didn't, he was almost as ineffective as he is now. 

I cannot remember one critique of his performances from anyone outside of the club that have shown and demonstrated his 'brilliance'.

Now you're just letting your hate for Enzo blind you, he was excellent after joining and that was supported by metrics at the time.

Maybe you expected more, or something different (quite clearly both), but he's not been useless from day dot.

Either way, agree to disagree.

[Siidi]

Colwill has the looks of a tough defender.  But can anyone tell me in which part of the game  he is better than Chalobah or even Badiashile? 

[NoblyBobly]

8 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Now you're just letting your hate for Enzo blind you, he was excellent after joining and that was supported by metrics at the time.

Maybe you expected more, or something different (quite clearly both), but he's not been useless from day dot.

Either way, agree to disagree.

Since he’s arrived I’ve seen little moments of good play , signs of promise but generally he’s been ineffective in this team and a huge waste of money so far ( because I expect we are going to see a lot more of him). Obviously he was Sarris ‘boy’ so permanent fixture there but I’m a bit gob smacked at how many games and how many chances he’s had to make an impact. This is what frustrates people. Without him through injury , Connor and Caicedo thrived and we just looked better ( results confirmed that). But then we ditch Connor !! . It’s extremely disappointing. 

[NoblyBobly]

10 minutes ago, Siidi said:

Colwill has the looks of a tough defender.  But can anyone tell me in which part of the game  he is better than Chalobah or even Badiashile? 

None because Chalobah is the best defender we’ve got/had. You just watch him become a star elsewhere. 

[Miguelito07]

1 minute ago, NoblyBobly said:

None because Chalobah is the best defender we’ve got/had. You just watch him become a star elsewhere. 

I get what you're saying (writing) but if he was a star then teams would be lining up to buy him. I do think however that he is on par with Guehi - but then again, i dont think he's world class.

I actually liked what I saw from Forfana yesterday. Yep, there some crap moments (which is understandable as he has been out for more than a season) but I liked his aggression and passing.

[east lower]

12 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Now you're just letting your hate for Enzo blind you, he was excellent after joining and that was supported by metrics at the time.

Maybe you expected more, or something different (quite clearly both), but he's not been useless from day dot.

Either way, agree to disagree.

I don't hate him, I just think he is an extremely over-rated footballer and has questionable personal characteristics (some of the latter that I could see result in some people really disliking him). He's been disappointing from day one and hopeless for last season, this season's not shaping up too well either. We need shot of him and sharpish like. He represents everything that's wrong with us right now. But, I'll await the positive critiques and see if they can help change my view.

Metrics - Oh super, he had good metrics. Like he ran more than a few of ours yesterday, just couldn't get near the ball because he's too slow. How did his good metrics result in improved results? And that's the whole problem with managing by data/metrics - They don't equal good results. Teams do that and teambuilding is key, finding the correct combinations, shifting out people who just don't fit. But not us, we shift out the ones who DO fit.

Metrics has more than played it's part in getting us into the soulless and unsuccessful place we're at now and have been at since the owners have taken charge and systematically removed all traces of our former staff and methods. What a wonderful success it's been and it'll get worse yet, unless there's radical change, but they're screwed as they've spent their dough and placed us on the precipice of penalty with their crass incompetence.

Agree to disagree, not really - because I'm right and results prove it.

[Bones]

15 hours ago, McCreadie said:

Meanwhile, a few are going to act with faux outrage as to why we didn’t beat the best team in the World in our first competitive game with a new manager and half a team that have barely played together.

Our first competetive game with a new manager and half a team is exactly the problem!

[martin1905]

Interesting discussion regarding Enzo.

For what it's worth, and I've said this for some time, the further up the field he plays the more ineffective he is. The last position I would play him is as a 10.

He's won the World Cup and Copa America playing deeper and is one of Argentinians key players.

I think a lot of people are rewriting history with his first 6 months here. He was pretty much universally praised. Sure some may have  not thought much of him, maybe just don't like the style of player he is or whatever, but he was very good. Certainly our best player for the back end of the Potter/Lampard season and there was a lot of excitement around him. You can't just claim that didn't happen, as it did. No suprise during that time he played deeper in midfield. 

We are one game in, against City, so far to early to judge anything. It may be he only played as a 10 yesterday due to others, Neto/Sterling/Mudryk not being ready, or even wanted in Sterling's case. It is interesting that we started with a double 6, everyone expected us to start the season with 3 in midfield but if we continue with a pivot we are going to have to pick two of Enzo, Caicedo and Lavia and rotate them.

There's going to be a fair bit of tweaking going forward, this new system, new way of playing is going to take time and it's also going to take a bit of time for Maresca to work out his best line up. 

If he continues to play as a 10 it will mean two things. Nkunku or Palmer won't and they are going to play the vast majority of games which means Sterling, Mudryk,  Madueke, Neto and possibly Felix are battling for minutes. And secondly Caicedo and Lavia will have to play every game. Neither of those two things makes sense.

Going forward I'd expect to see Enzo drop back and be one of the pivot. The debate then becomes does he warrant a place above Caicedo or Lavia. We are going to play plenty of games so the short answer is yes, in some games. However when we play the better teams it may be that he doesn't necessarily start those games. The longer this season goes on the more apparent it will become that it is a simple choice between Lavia and Enzo to partner Caicedo.

 

[Blue Orca]

1 hour ago, Sleeping Dave said:

I don't disagree. But if he is to play, and let's be honest, there is no way the club will admit defeat for one of their marquee signings, #10 is the only place to hide him. In that position, at least he can utilise his passing range and hurt the opposition. Putting him at CM, at the expense of Caideco or Lavia is daft. His passing won't do any damage there and his habit of misplacing passes becomes much more of an issue. 

Ideally he wouldn't play at all. I think our best starting XI is;

                               GK

James - Disasi - Colwill - Cucurella

                Caicedo - Lavia

      Palmer - Nkunku - LW

                               S

Haven't named GK or S because we need new players there. LW is a toss up between Neto, Sterling and Mudryk. No clear front runner there imo. 

Fully agree with this. Personally I'd much rather have a Connor Gallagher in the side, back-up to Caicedo/Lavia and the CAM in tough ties like the one yesterday. His pressing game along warrants him being in the squad. So predictable we would miss his athleticism, yet the powers upstairs are completely devoid of any competence in building a squad. 

Selling Chalobah and Gallagher is so daft it beggars belief. 

To make things worse, Enzo had the armband yesterday. It's do ridiculous it's hard to believe. 

Fofana instead of Disaster everyday.

[martin1905]

9 minutes ago, Bones said:

Our first competetive game with a new manager and half a team is exactly the problem!

Is it though?

One game and you've made your mind up. 

We clearly saw a system and a way of playing yesterday and it was different to what we have seen the last two years. That system is going to take time to implement.  It's going to take time to get right, it is going to need tweaking and will evolve throughout the season and beyond. 

The reality is we just don't know who will suit the system and who won't. The first competitive game, against Man City, really isn't the time to judge.

[Blue Orca]

15 minutes ago, Bones said:

Our first competetive game with a new manager and half a team is exactly the problem!

Largely the team played well. One keeper error that everyone knew would appear sooner than later and an offside goal that we knew Jackson would score sooner than later. Otherwise against the possible PL winners we were always in the game. Let's not panic. 

[Blue Orca]

3 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Is it though?

One game and you've made your mind up. 

We clearly saw a system and a way of playing yesterday and it was different to what we have seen the last two years. That system is going to take time to implement.  It's going to take time to get right, it is going to need tweaking and will evolve throughout the season and beyond. 

The reality is we just don't know who will suit the system and who won't. The first competitive game, against Man City, really isn't the time to judge.

Exactly. We were competitive against the best team in the land. Let's see how we progress. 

[Blue Orca]

16 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

I presume he’s in the ‘must play’ bucket along with Enzo. I don’t know why any coach would pick him. I saw that goal and that’s all on him, as so often is the case.

No good having a keeper that can pull off the odd great save, if they’re guaranteed to gift the opposition at least a couple of chances a match.

Top teams have a keeper that can win them points through the season, we have the opposite.

Yep, and that's why the club brought in steady Petrovic. Surely Maresca was aware of why we had to do this?