Chelsea 0 Manchester City 2

[martin1905]

For all my positivity there are a few things that Maresca got badly wrong yesterday. 

Firstly playing Enzo as a 10. Not sure what he has seen in him that makes him think he can play there but even more baffling was why on earth he thinks he could be the one to lead the press.  Fair play to him for trying, and he really did try. It wasn't a lack of effort but it was embarrassing watching him try. He was trying his hardest and got nowhere near to being effective. 

Secondly. Jackson and Palmer should not have started the game. They were both clearly unfit. I haven't watched any of pre season but looking at the minutes played Madueke should have been more ready than Palmer. Unless he has been shocking during pre season he should have started.

The same goes for Guiu. He had plenty of minutes during pre season and whilst it would have been a big call to start him in a game like that he should have. First impressions of him were very good. He's a big old boy but looks very quick and he is a machine when it comes to pressing so even more surprised he didn't start.

He should have started Guiu and Madueke and bought on Palmer and Jackson early in the second half.

The last thing is Nkunku, he quite simply has to be the 10. It could be, as I said in a previous post it was more to do with others not being ready, hence Nkunku starting wide with Enzo at 10 so I'll give him the benefit of doubt but it has to change.

Edited August 19 by martin1905

[martin1905]

11 minutes ago, Blue Orca said:

Exactly. We were competitive against the best team in the land. Let's see how we progress. 

It's just being glossed over.

Everyone said before the game they hoped we wouldn't get battered but feared the worse.

We more than held our own, for large periods of the game. 

To see a performance like that, on day one should be very encouraging,  at least it is for me.

[east lower]

26 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Interesting discussion regarding Enzo.

For what it's worth, and I've said this for some time, the further up the field he plays the more ineffective he is. The last position I would play him is as a 10.

He's won the World Cup and Copa America playing deeper and is one of Argentinians key players.

I think a lot of people are rewriting history with his first 6 months here. He was pretty much universally praised. Sure some may have  not thought much of him, maybe just don't like the style of player he is or whatever, but he was very good. Certainly our best player for the back end of the Potter/Lampard season and there was a lot of excitement around him. You can't just claim that didn't happen, as it did. No suprise during that time he played deeper in midfield. 

Going forward I'd expect to see Enzo drop back and be one of the pivot. The debate then becomes does he warrant a place above Caicedo or Lavia. We are going to play plenty of games so the short answer is yes, in some games. However when we play the better teams it may be that he doesn't necessarily start those games. The longer this season goes on the more apparent it will become that it is a simple choice between Lavia and Enzo to partner Caicedo.

 

He's effective nowhere on the pitch, Maresca put him in a place where he thought his lack of pace and strength wouldn't be so much of an issue - and it still was. I also note a position that last season Mr Fernandez was quoted as saying was the one he saw himself in. He can't be played deeper in this league as it's too fast for him, he has to turn onto his right foot and teams know this. He can't play with his back to the opposition goal and gives the ball away,  as showed yesterday. 

The only people re-writing history are his apologists, we were rubbish in the Potter/Lampard season, 11th was it? Show me the positive critiques and I'll change my mind, but I'm still waiting for those.

Plays OK for his national team, but I've already commented why that possibly is. 

If he is accommodated deeper, we're jiggered.

The longer the season goes on with him in the team, the further we'll be away from a top four finish.

Edited August 19 by east lower

[JaneB]

Thiago Silva aims dig at Anthony Taylor after Chelsea denied penalty against Man City (msn.com)

We love and miss you Thiago 💙

[bertles86]

13 hours ago, Floyd25 said:

Really? If he’s an attacking midfielder, then I must be the prime minister, pigeonholing him in to that position when we have Nkunku and Palmer is absurd. 

But if Enzo isn't a 6 and isn't a 10, then what position is he? 

[Miguelito07]

6 minutes ago, bertles86 said:

But if Enzo isn't a 6 and isn't a 10, then what position is he? 

im gonna go for a 8? cos its the average

[Bison]

2 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

I don't disagree. But if he is to play, and let's be honest, there is no way the club will admit defeat for one of their marquee signings, #10 is the only place to hide him. In that position, at least he can utilise his passing range and hurt the opposition. Putting him at CM, at the expense of Caideco or Lavia is daft. His passing won't do any damage there and his habit of misplacing passes becomes much more of an issue. 

Ideally he wouldn't play at all. I think our best starting XI is;

                               GK

James - Disasi - Colwill - Cucurella

                Caicedo - Lavia

      Palmer - Nkunku - LW

                               S

Haven't named GK or S because we need new players there. LW is a toss up between Neto, Sterling and Mudryk. No clear front runner there imo. 

Oh of course, Enzo is going to play no matter what. Being made captain after he was caught chanting racist songs tells us all we need to know. Forget about form and tactical fit, those things couldn't matter any less.

Maresca has to figure out what to do with him and quickly. Considering he has to play, I sort of understand why having him at 10 makes the most sense because it's a position where he causes us less damage. And when he's bypassed we should have enough players behind him to make life tough for the opposition. As we saw for the Kovacic goal, when Enzo is in a deeper position and somebody invariably walks by him as if he isn't there then they are through with a clear sight on goal.

As I said earlier, playing Enzo 10 also brings other problems: he isn't shifty/tricky on the ball in tight spaces which the position requires, he kills any press from the front and also moves other players like Nkunku away from their supposedly best position. And then moving Enzo back into midfield meant we had to sacrifice Lavia who had a shout for our man of the match.

It'll be tough task for Maresca to play everybody the directors want (Enzo, Sanchez etc)  but to also get results at the same time.

Edited August 19 by Bison

[Sleeping Dave]

5 minutes ago, Bison said:

 

It'll bough task for Maresca to play everybody the directors want (Enzo, Sanchez etc)  but to also get results at the same time.

No doubt. 

[Max Fowler]

We shouldn't be surprised to be impressed with some of our play from yesterday, particularly against a team that doesn't play a low block like City. We all know that there are talented players in the squad. We all know that Maresca is a talented coach too.

The point is there are glaring and fundamental problems with the way this squad has been put together that no nice patterns of play are going to fix. Yesterday showed nothing different than we are going to struggle this season, as we are not clinical in forward positions and make mistakes at the back. Only a sustained run of form will change that calculation.

[martin1905]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

He's effective nowhere on the pitch, Maresca put him in a place where he thought his lack of pace and strength wouldn't be so much of an issue - and it still was.

We've watched him for a season and a half now. He was much better in his first 6 months. Whether or not people want to acknowledge that now is up to them.

He is least effective the further up the pitch he plays. We saw that first hand last season. There was a fair bit of excitement at the beginning of last season. Let's not forget 90% of this forum predicted a top 4 finish last year and part of that was based on Enzo. 

After his promising fist 6 months people expect him to kick on yet we saw Poch play him further forward, where he is useless.

1 hour ago, east lower said:

I also note a position that last season Mr Fernandez was quoted as saying was the one he saw himself in.

He did and Poch accommodated him by playing him there. We all saw how that ended up.

1 hour ago, east lower said:

He can't be played deeper in this league as it's too fast for him, he has to turn onto his right foot and teams know this. He can't play with his back to the opposition goal and gives the ball away,  as showed yesterday. 

He can and he has. He played his best football there for us. Can he play there against the bigger teams? Probably not, and I've said as much,  but when we are going to be camped in the opposition half with 60% possession and winning the ball back high up the pitch he can definitely play there. 

He can't play as a 10. We've seen more than enough evidence of that.

1 hour ago, east lower said:

The only people re-writing history are his apologists, we were rubbish in the Potter/Lampard season, 11th was it? Show me the positive critiques and I'll change my mind, but I'm still waiting for those.

We were worse than rubbish that season and maybe that's why Enzo stood out those first 6 months when he came in. It's a shame we haven't got the old forum. The vast majority of people were very happy with his performances.

1 hour ago, east lower said:

Plays OK for his national team, but I've already commented why that possibly is. 

And you could be right. Or it could just be that he's better playing a deeper role. He's proved that here and when he plays for his country.

1 hour ago, east lower said:

If he is accommodated deeper, we're jiggered.

When everyone is fully fit and we are properly up and running it's the only place for him. If he doesn't play there we are screwed as we only have Lavia and Caicedo yet we have plenty of attacking options. 

The squad has been assembled with Enzo as one of the deeper midfielders, you've only got to look at it to see that.

1 hour ago, east lower said:

The longer the season goes on with him in the team, the further we'll be away from a top four finish.

Wit will be interesting what happens in the next 8 matches, including the conference games. Then we have a horrendous run of fixtures where we play Liverpool,  Newcastle,  United, Arsenal, Villa and Tottenham in 6 weeks.

 

[NoblyBobly]

2 hours ago, Miguelito07 said:

I get what you're saying (writing) but if he was a star then teams would be lining up to buy him. I do think however that he is on par with Guehi - but then again, i dont think he's world class.

I actually liked what I saw from Forfana yesterday. Yep, there some crap moments (which is understandable as he has been out for more than a season) but I liked his aggression and passing.

The question is, is he officially up for sale? 
second question is, have other teams seen enough of him play? Probably not …tbf we haven’t either but we look more closely. He’s not the finished article for sure but I haven’t seen anyone we got who’s obviously better that we’ve got. He has a lot to like I think and will just get better. His problem ( like Connor) is that he’s an academy product so it’s pure profit if we sell. The owners seem to like that. 

[Siidi]

I like what I saw in Lavia - his speed of turn, aggression, anticipation, and confidence on the ball. He actually looked more suited to the PL than Caicedo. 

We desperately need a top striker. 

[chara]

2 hours ago, bertles86 said:

But if Enzo isn't a 6 and isn't a 10, then what position is he? 

I always thought the old joke not funny, laboured and tired BUT...Left Back ....In The Dressing Room ?

 

[xceleryx]

55 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

The question is, is he officially up for sale? 
second question is, have other teams seen enough of him play? Probably not …tbf we haven’t either but we look more closely. He’s not the finished article for sure but I haven’t seen anyone we got who’s obviously better that we’ve got. He has a lot to like I think and will just get better. His problem ( like Connor) is that he’s an academy product so it’s pure profit if we sell. The owners seem to like that. 

He's 25 and realistically doesn't have a lot of significant development left, at least not enough to propel him into a position of being one of the top tier centrebacks. He'll do well to reach Zouma levels, which isn't a knock but it's 4th or 5th CB quality at the very best. 

I've asked before but what exactly is he good at? What about his game stands him above others exactly? 

His best two qualities are his speed, which isn't blistering anyway, and his versatility. Otherwise we're looking at a 6ft + CB that wins less than 50% of his aerial duels, is redundant at ground level due to awful progressive abilities, plays on the back foot which means he doesn't really step up to make interceptions, and is prone to his own lapses in concentration. 

I'd be shocked if any of the general "top 6" would be looking at him as an option beyond that of a squad player. Then you look at the general lack of interest being shown in him, despite essentially being told to go - missing out on the pre-season tour and also directed to train away from the main group. He'd be a great pickup for a Palace or Fulham type club, which if Guehi ends up joining Newcastle I wouldn't be surprised if Chalobah ends up being his replacement. 

[Ham]

3 hours ago, east lower said:

 

The only people re-writing history are his apologists, we were rubbish in the Potter/Lampard season, 11th was it? Show me the positive critiques and I'll change my mind, but I'm still waiting for those.

 

No.  You're rewriting history because, in a misfiring team, he was one of the best players for the first 6 months of last season.  

No amount of stomping your feet with your fingers in your ears is going to change that. 

 

[Chelsea_Matt]

3 hours ago, JaneB said:

Thiago Silva aims dig at Anthony Taylor after Chelsea denied penalty against Man City (msn.com)

We love and miss you Thiago 💙

More than ever. 🩶

[east lower]

9 minutes ago, Ham said:

No.  You're rewriting history because, in a misfiring team, he was one of the best players for the first 6 months of last season.  

No amount of stomping your feet with your fingers in your ears is going to change that. 

 

We’ll see how it ends up, he was a poor buy and has generally limited us, as witnessed during his absence last season.

Still waiting for the plaudits and reports from those ‘wonderful’ first six months.  Silence is almost deafening.

Results on the other hand are very much available to see.

As regards the last paragraph, you lads saying we’re in a good place perhaps ought to look in the mirror before coming out with that tosh.

Edited August 19 by east lower

[Max Fowler]

Enzo (Fernandez) still deserves a chance but the fact he has been made captain is pure wishful thinking / sunk cost fallacy from the board, having previously made Chilwell vice captain (another laughble decision based on his injury record, along with James, and who is now up for sale). 

Despite some occasional bright moments Fernandez has shown nothing to suggest he is captain material, even if we ignore his recent controversy. Poch was brought in after an exhaustive process to supposedly be the best fit for our squad and 12 months later we've brought in another Enzo, partly to get the best out of Fernandez.

It's so obvious that our thinking is not joined up / chaotic and that midfield three - Enzo, Lavia, and Caicedo - is just a small part of the problem. Not big enough for the PL, not enough leadership or creativity. Actually it's arguably one of our strongest areas but still reeks of being imbalanced and poorly assembled.

[Chelsea_Matt]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

We’ll see how it ends up, he was a poor buy and has generally limited us, as witnessed during his absence last season.

Still waiting for the plaudits and reports from those ‘wonderful’ first six months.  Silence is almost deafening.

Results on the other hand are very much available to see.

As regards the last paragraph, you lads saying we’re in a good place perhaps ought to look in the mirror before coming out with that tosh.

Yep. The happy clappy stuff I’m reading here makes me think I’m in a parallel dimension. 👻 🌪️ 🪐 

[Original 21]

4 hours ago, JaneB said:

Thiago Silva aims dig at Anthony Taylor after Chelsea denied penalty against Man City (msn.com)

We love and miss you Thiago 💙

Can’t help but feel that if it was the other way around, Taylor wouldn’t have hesitated in awarding a penalty to City. I’ve got a suspicion refs will find a way to award a penalty when it pleases them. 

[east lower]

12 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

Yep. The happy clappy stuff I’m reading here makes me think I’m in a parallel dimension. 👻 🌪️ 🪐 

You’d wonder if one or two are just being contrary, because they can.

[thevelourfog]

Genuinely don't remember this six month period where Enzo Fernandez was good. I remember people talking about it, but not a single performance that made any difference to a result. 

[Mark Kelly]

34 minutes ago, Original 21 said:

Can’t help but feel that if it was the other way around, Taylor wouldn’t have hesitated in awarding a penalty to City. I’ve got a suspicion refs will find a way to award a penalty when it pleases them. 

I agree, the commentary team fell over themselves to firstly state his hands were in a natural position (they weren't) and secondly that the rule has changed. Let's see how that rule hasn't changed when we do it. 

[chara]

58 minutes ago, east lower said:

You’d wonder if one or two are just being contrary, because they can.

Perish the thought!

28 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I agree, the commentary team fell over themselves to firstly state his hands were in a natural position (they weren't) and secondly that the rule has changed. Let's see how that rule hasn't changed when we do it. 

I posted my thoughts on the ref earlier...smug s***h***e..... perfect scenario's yesterday for him to deny Chelsea without needing to defend the decisions..or lack of them.

The "I've Seen Them Given" incidents, (easily deniable,) but not by Anthony for Chelsea.

I haven't forgotten the "Dawning of the Age of Aquarius" incident response from him!!

 🙈💈💇‍♂️

 

[NoblyBobly]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

He's 25 and realistically doesn't have a lot of significant development left, at least not enough to propel him into a position of being one of the top tier centrebacks. He'll do well to reach Zouma levels, which isn't a knock but it's 4th or 5th CB quality at the very best. 

I've asked before but what exactly is he good at? What about his game stands him above others exactly? 

His best two qualities are his speed, which isn't blistering anyway, and his versatility. Otherwise we're looking at a 6ft + CB that wins less than 50% of his aerial duels, is redundant at ground level due to awful progressive abilities, plays on the back foot which means he doesn't really step up to make interceptions, and is prone to his own lapses in concentration. 

I'd be shocked if any of the general "top 6" would be looking at him as an option beyond that of a squad player. Then you look at the general lack of interest being shown in him, despite essentially being told to go - missing out on the pre-season tour and also directed to train away from the main group. He'd be a great pickup for a Palace or Fulham type club, which if Guehi ends up joining Newcastle I wouldn't be surprised if Chalobah ends up being his replacement. 

Can you name any of our CBs that would be of interest to a top 6 club?