Media Stories, Rumours and Gossip

[Blue Orca]

3 hours ago, Backbiter said:

The Guardian has done a feature on the current investigations by the FA into possible breaches of FFP by Chelsea, Man City and Everton. This is the headline they went with:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/nov/16/chelsea-facing-fa-and-premier-league-probe-for-possible-ffp-breaches

The Guardian lol. 

[thevelourfog]

I know we are desperate to see a media conspiracy against us, but the headline has a more obvious, self-serving motivation. The investigation into us is the Guardian's handiwork, of course they are going to promote it before anything else.

This line is interesting and I wonder how accurate it is ... "The case cannot go any further, to the law courts". I fully expect the specific argument about breach of profit and sustainability rules can't, but would expect there to be plenty of other legal avenues available for challenge. As I understand it, the nature of what Everton were accused of is quite different in that they simply reported huge losses they argued were covered by recent relaxations. Chelsea, and City, have been accused of actively circumventing the rules. Much more serious but because of that much more difficult to establish as fact and I don't believe for one second either club has to or will settle for a decision made on the balance of probability. 

[chara]

I may not be the brightest but reading the Guardian piece about RA and "The Truth" as reported by the G... I read that RA may have been wheeling and dealing in the football market place...not defending or attacking..but without the involvement of the day to day running of Chelsea but of course any mud that can be thrown at Chelsea as a club will be.

Cynical OG...if Chelsea get dragged down but not Citeh ?...or perhaps if Citeh get clear how can any charges be made at Chelsea or other clubs??...the whole stinking swamp that is becoming the financial lynchpin of the game...not just EPL.... makes the future of the sport (maybe any sport) look very distasteful.

State sponsorship in any form means State financial resources and INFLUENCE.... what difference would a "regulator" make?

I despair.

For all the bashing of Todd and Co there does seem to be an effort to balance moral obligations (cynical Og says  protection of investments) with a setting aside of funds for possible legal issues and stepping up to report possible irregularities...points gleefully avoided by the Guardian.

Any smarter members out there to comment on my less than clever observations ?

The Media ?  ...Charlatans all.

[Max Fowler]

27 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I know we are desperate to see a media conspiracy against us, but the headline has a more obvious, self-serving motivation. The investigation into us is the Guardian's handiwork, of course they are going to promote it before anything else.

Well also the Man City story started back in February. The Chelsea stuff of this week is new.

City stuff is relegated to a sub headline because it was reported in full here back in February.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2023/feb/06/manchester-city-charged-by-premier-league-over-alleged-financial-rule-breaches

[Dwmh]

34 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I know we are desperate to see a media conspiracy against us, but the headline has a more obvious, self-serving motivation. The investigation into us is the Guardian's handiwork, of course they are going to promote it before anything else.

Guardian plugging the Guardian, yes.
 

34 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

This line is interesting and I wonder how accurate it is ... "The case cannot go any further, to the law courts". I fully expect the specific argument about breach of profit and sustainability rules can't, but would expect there to be plenty of other legal avenues available for challenge.

This.  I'm not a lawyer, but I would be quite gobsmacked if a cartel agreement between businesses can include a specific measure to prevent any appeal to the courts.  Anymore than my landlord could include a clause which prevents me from appealing to a court, even if I agree to sign it.  Mafia rules.

Therefore the whole bluff (like UEFA's FFP) requires punishments mild enough to be acceptable by those that break the rules.  Smack me on the wrists and I'll say sorry.  Anything more serious then I'll call your bluff and the whole Book of rules is going to be judged in court.

[FIFA I believe have a rule that says if you sue your national FA then you must be banned from football.  But I dare any FA to try and exercise that rule.]

Edited November 17, 2023 by Dwmh

[Max Fowler]

I am all for the "Chelsea against the world" mentality we fostered on the pitch under the RA era. It was fantastic to feel like the whole world hated us, have Jose as our instigator in chief and a team that fully represented that spirit.

Of course, there are examples of officials turning against us - that infamous Barcelona game where we really were robbed, no Chelsea fan really likes Anthony Taylor either but no referee deserves death threats or abuse going over the line.

It's a bit embarrassing to hear the double-standards on here relating to our finances though. We should have known Roman was likely to be at risk of breaching FFP, so should Man City. If we did wrong we should be punished, so should they.

I repeat: if we were fans of any other club in the football pyramid, we would be calling for a proper investigation and punishment of Chelsea if Roman did wrong. Because we are Chelsea fans it's all one great media-government collusion.

[Dwmh]

9 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Of course, there are examples of officials turning against us - that infamous Barcelona game where we really were robbed, no 

That had little to do with us.  There are dozens of clubs that have been robbed by refs in Barca games over decades.  That was a Barca thing, not a Chelsea thing.  Even now there is an inquiry into Barca bribing Spanish refs.
In March prosecutors filed a complaint over alleged payments of more than €7.3m over 17 years to firms owned by José María Enríquez Negreira, who was vice-president of the football federation’s refereeing committee (CTA) from 1993 to 2018.

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

It's a bit embarrassing to hear the double-standards on here relating to our finances though. We should have known Roman was likely to be at risk of breaching FFP, so should Man City. If we did wrong we should be punished, so should they.

Yes of course.  And you couldn't buy a player from Ukraine cleanly back in 2013 and I'd even more surprised if it could be done in 2023.   
When SAF was asked why he didn't buy Hazard for £30m, he said openly that the price had to be added to a £6m agents fee.

I think it is highly likely that there have been a whole lot of behind the scenes payments to Chelsea staff and players over the 2003-2021.
(Giving rise to the suggestion that perhaps an end to behind the scenes payments lead to the massive dash for the doors by so many players and staff once RA was going.  Given the sanctions the club/RA might have been quite unable to make payments from  Feb 2022 onwards.  Admittedly I have long been clutching at straws to understand the great desertion  from the club.)

Of course there has been a lot of such shenanigans going on at most other clubs too.  The Man U capture of Mikel for example was naughty.

 

 

 

[Sciatika]

27 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Of course, there are examples of officials turning against us - that infamous Barcelona game where we really were robbed, no Chelsea fan really likes Anthony Taylor either but no referee deserves death threats or abuse going over the line.

I thought Taylor had a decent game on Sunday. He missed a few things such as Haaland using Cucurella as a lever and the Walker handball. He played the advantage quite well which I like to see.

[thevelourfog]

11 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Giving rise to the suggestion that perhaps an end to behind the scenes payments lead to the massive dash for the doors by so many players and staff once RA was going.  Given the sanctions the club/RA might have been quite unable to make payments from  Feb 2022 onwards.  Admittedly I have long been clutching at straws to understand the great desertion  from the club.

A very interesting theory.

I've just seen the Guardian's reporting on Zahavi's and Abramovich's alleged 3rd party ownership of players and the question it raises for me about the other allegations is very basic, perhaps stupid, but I think stands ... How do you defensibly assert Abramovich's imo likely actions are Chelsea's, rather than his own? It is, again, a very different nature of allegation than those made against City.

[Sciatika]

I wondered the same thing but could not decide whether my natural prejudice was taking control.

[Dwmh]

27 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I've just seen the Guardian's reporting on Zahavi's and Abramovich's alleged 3rd party ownership of players and the question it raises for me about the other allegations is very basic, perhaps stupid, but I think stands ... How do you defensibly assert Abramovich's imo likely actions are Chelsea's, rather than his own? It is, again, a very different nature of allegation than those made against City.

2 things.  If this were a tax case there are very clear rules to decide if a company is moving profits (or costs) from one company to another, and there is a ton of legal precendent.  Similarly where a minority shareholder is being cheated by moving profits out of that company and into another.  So I think tranfer of costs can be proven in a court.
Second is the "knowingly" question.  But if any one of Eugene, Maria, Buck or RA can be shown to be aware of what was being done outside the club I think that is evidence that key people at the club were aware and were responsible to report them.

But again the club seem to have broken cartel club rules.  Punishing the club is exercising mafia rules.  Can the PL face up to a member that refuses to play the game?

42 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

A very interesting theory.

They say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  Both the mass desertion and my suggested explanation are certainly extraordinary.  Not a good theory even if better than every other theory I have heard.

[chara]

41 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

A very interesting theory.

I've just seen the Guardian's reporting on Zahavi's and Abramovich's alleged 3rd party ownership of players and the question it raises for me about the other allegations is very basic, perhaps stupid, but I think stands ... How do you defensibly assert Abramovich's imo likely actions are Chelsea's, rather than his own? It is, again, a very different nature of allegation than those made against City.

My point exactly...the murky waters of financial "machinations" are more an individual 's handling of wheeling and dealing rather than a club's involvement...

 I think if the FA Epl et al start an investigation of any Club's actual behind the scenes /under the counter activities..as opposed to individual out of Club Financial "Market/Jungle"" activity by owners etc..there will be too many ugly incidents to be honestly dealt with...from youth signings to "bungs" and the whole ooze in between...it is not a "Roy Of The Rovers" environment.

[chara]

@Dwmh...the clutching at straws points..... the exodus was really of senior players who had been stealing a living in the sense that their contribution to Chelsea generally fell short in comparision of their pay checks and transfer costs,

You have a good point but everyone on here basically had run out of patience with the players and perhaps as much as anything else maybe so had the Club...comparing the effort being made by the present disparate group of players one can see the glaring differences.

Thank you for laying out so many points in an easily understood fashion.... OG's like me need clarity!

Droy..Off point question..indulge me..the recent debate about influencial full backs..I of course thought about Ken Shellito..you know my opinion of him but following up on some online info I read that he sustained his ultimately career ending injury away at Sheffield W,..two references on line...my memory was it started on that ill-fated trip to Malta during the Big Freeze..I did find a ref from the Doc referring to the Malta incident but my memory say it was the Malta injury...any thoughts or am I losing the plot!

[Mark Kelly]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

I am all for the "Chelsea against the world" mentality we fostered on the pitch under the RA era. It was fantastic to feel like the whole world hated us, have Jose as our instigator in chief and a team that fully represented that spirit.

Of course, there are examples of officials turning against us - that infamous Barcelona game where we really were robbed, no Chelsea fan really likes Anthony Taylor either but no referee deserves death threats or abuse going over the line.

It's a bit embarrassing to hear the double-standards on here relating to our finances though. We should have known Roman was likely to be at risk of breaching FFP, so should Man City. If we did wrong we should be punished, so should they.

I repeat: if we were fans of any other club in the football pyramid, we would be calling for a proper investigation and punishment of Chelsea if Roman did wrong. Because we are Chelsea fans it's all one great media-government collusion.

Pardon me if I'm being a bit naive here but, the Everton case has been on the cards since last season so it was always coming, Citys issues have been known for months but Chelseas were highlighted when the new owners were doing due diligence when buying the club and brought to the relevant authorities and were fined heavier for it at the time.

We've had our punishment and any further punishment by the Premier League and I would expect we'd take it straight to court. 

[Max Fowler]

18 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Pardon me if I'm being a bit naive here but, the Everton case has been on the cards since last season so it was always coming, Citys issues have been known for months but Chelseas were highlighted when the new owners were doing due diligence when buying the club and brought to the relevant authorities and were fined heavier for it at the time.

We've had our punishment and any further punishment by the Premier League and I would expect we'd take it straight to court. 

These are secret payments that were not uncovered by our new owners when they took over the club. These are new charges.

[Backbiter]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

These are secret payments that were not uncovered by our new owners when they took over the club. These are new charges.

They aren't charges at this stage, just investigations. Some documents have been leaked in Cyprus showing payments that (allegedly) weren't declared in the accounts. No idea of the scale of the payments or whether they'd have put our spending in breach of FFP if the club had declared them.

[Mark Kelly]

30 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

These are secret payments that were not uncovered by our new owners when they took over the club. These are new charges.

Are you sure?  Because I remember them being secret payments last time too. 

Maybe they've dug a bit deeper this time. 

I would say they couldn't possibly charge the new club for the sins of the old club particularly under the circumstances of the theft of the club from Abramovich and then I remebered what the FA did to Luton. 

[Dwmh]

42 minutes ago, chara said:

@Dwmh....the clutching at straws points..... the exodus was really of senior players who had been stealing a living in the sense that their contribution to Chelsea generally fell short in comparision of their pay checks and transfer costs,

You have a good point but everyone on here basically had run out of patience with the players and perhaps as much as anything else maybe so had the Club...comparing the effort being made by the present disparate group of players one can see the glaring differences.

Do you mean the two that Arsenal bought or the three that went to United, City and Newcastle or the 5 that went to AM, RM and Barca?  Or the several who went to big Italian clubs.
Or perhaps you are talking about the coach and his assistant who went to Bayern Munich?

I know I missed a  year of intense mindset on here where wild ideas are allowed to grow till everyone believes in them.
But the idea that the players all left because they were crap is self-evident nonsense.

(i'm answering back strongly not because you pushed the idea, but because it seems to have inhabited this site).

 

51 minutes ago, chara said:

Droy..Off point question..indulge me..the recent debate about influencial full backs..I of course thought about Ken Shellito..you know my opinion of him but following up on some online info I read that he sustained his ultimately career ending injury away at Sheffield W,..two references on line...my memory was it started on that ill-fated trip to Malta during the Big Freeze..I did find a ref from the Doc referring to the Malta incident but my memory say it was the Malta injury...any thoughts or am I losing the plot!

Shellito the player is before anything I can recall, unlike Eddie Mac.  Shellito the coach is different unfortunately, and less said...
I know my Dad, and more so his friend who had a better memory and was more opinionated, both thought the injury was a great shame to a fine player.

[chara]

Thanks @Dwmh....Droy...was generalising rather than pushing an agenda.... watching the England/Malta game ..interesting watching two Chelsea old boys!

[Max Fowler]

55 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Are you sure?  Because I remember them being secret payments last time too. 

Maybe they've dug a bit deeper this time. 

I would say they couldn't possibly charge the new club for the sins of the old club particularly under the circumstances of the theft of the club from Abramovich and then I remebered what the FA did to Luton. 

Let's see.

I disagree that the club was stolen though, Mark. RA, as much as we love him, likely had ties to Putin and the government had no other choice (let's try and avoid politics). Guardiola could argue he will get punished for what happened before he arrived at City.

There's no other way of ensuring compliance across the board. Strip titles, dock points if needed. For the integrity of the league.

I don't know what the right punishment is but City and Chelsea could be looking at some pretty hefty repercussions.

What I reject most is that Chelsea are being treated especially unfairly, I just think there is no evidence for that. We got unlucky that our owner was Russian and Putin started a war with Ukraine, but we also got lucky that RA gave us all those years of success.

[Dwmh]

7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I disagree that the club was stolen though, Mark. RA, as much as we love him, likely had ties to Putin and the government had no other choice (let's try and avoid politics). Guardiola could argue he will get punished for what happened before he arrived at City.

RA certainly had ties to Putin.  The question is not whether RA has his assets stolen but whether the Russia asset loss was thefit.  It was theft.   $300bn of state assets as well as a load of private financial assets property and yachts.  
I agree RA wasn't treated any different to other Russians, but it was certainly theft.  Only partly compensated by theft by Russia of western assets in Russia 

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

What I reject most is that Chelsea are being treated especially unfairly, I just think there is no evidence for that.

I agree.  At least for now.

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

We got unlucky that our owner was Russian and Putin started a war with Ukraine,

Rather that US and UK provoked a situation and refused to consider Russia's alternatives to avoid a war then blocked a negotiated peace.

18 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

but we also got lucky that RA gave us all those years of success.

Amen to that.

[Chelsea_Matt]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

Let's see.

I disagree that the club was stolen though, Mark. RA, as much as we love him, likely had ties to Putin and the government had no other choice (let's try and avoid politics). Guardiola could argue he will get punished for what happened before he arrived at City.

There's no other way of ensuring compliance across the board. Strip titles, dock points if needed. For the integrity of the league.

I don't know what the right punishment is but City and Chelsea could be looking at some pretty hefty repercussions.

What I reject most is that Chelsea are being treated especially unfairly, I just think there is no evidence for that. We got unlucky that our owner was Russian and Putin started a war with Ukraine, but we also got lucky that RA gave us all those years of success.

Only it was stolen, wasn’t it. The govt were happy to take all that Russian (and Chinese etc) money for decades. Then suddenly it’s all dirty? It’s all a show. There’s so much Russian money invested they’ll never get to it (and I doubt they want to). Roman was an easy target despite having owned Chelsea for nearly 2 decades. So what IF he knew Putin? No evidence has ever been produced of any wrongdoing on Roman’s part. 

It stinks and everyone knows it. 

[Dwmh]

37 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

No evidence has ever been produced of any wrongdoing on Roman’s part. 

Some would say no evidence has been produced on Putin's part, other than being provoked by nato moving into to its neighbour.
But a clear divide has been created nonetheless.  Russian oligarchs (and others) were been forced to leave Russia and bad mouth Putin in return for access to their cash and work abroad or else retreat to Russia.  There is no room for sitting on the fence.  Roman understood that immediately.

Amusingly to me, some oligarchs, like Mikhail Fridman chose to run to Israel and abandon Russia but recently have returned with their tails between their legs and to some abuse in Russian media.  The odd popstar too and ballet dancer too.

[Ham]

Jason Burt reporting that Chelsea expect a large fine and/or transfer ban on the grounds that they self reported and set aside £100m with this in mind.

If they anticipated something like this, that might explain the insanely busy transfer windows. 

[Floyd25]

6 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

There's no other way of ensuring compliance across the board. Strip titles, dock points if needed. For the integrity of the league.

Really, you’d be okay if they started stripping us of titles that we won in the Roman era? I’d walk away from the sport.