Transfer Talk Topic

[martin1905]

8 hours ago, xceleryx said:

If that's our midfield for this upcoming season it's a concern. 

The issue with virtually all of our young midfielders is that none are naturally suited to playing within a pivot, with virtually all having strengths that tend to lie more on the attacking side of the ball which suits more of a midfield three. 

Casadei is more of an #8 that likes to get forward, make runs into the box, and generally have an impact closer to goal. He's also a bit slower, so if he was to be thrown into a pivot and get left isolated he'd likely be exposed through quick transitions. 

Santos is more box-to-box and capable of having an impact on both sides of the ball, he is however probably the most capable of playing in a pivot but it doesn't necessarily maximise all of his qualities. 

Hall is probably similar to Casadei where his game naturally tends to favour more attacking aspects, so probably suits a greater attacking based role than a deeper defensive one. Not entirely sure what type of role he'd suit best at Premier League level, but it certainly isn't within a pivot.

Out of the three Santos makes the most sense to keep from a fit perspective as a 4th choice option, but we seriously need to be signing two defensive minded players so we've actually got a proper alternative. Santos could ultimately end up backing up Enzo in this situation, which would let him still have some attacking influence. 

I fear you've done a ROTG and been a little premature.

To claim neither Casadei or Santos are suitable to a pivot is a bit silly at this point, neither have played a single minute of first team football for us, Santos hasn't played at any level in this country, Casadei only championship. Both are very young and very talented and should be able to adapt.

The most important attribute to be able to play there is to be well rounded. A three man midfield allows you to use three different types of midfielders, in a pivot it's about a partnership where both need to complement each other and be able to do a bit of everything. Both Santos and Casadei look fairly versatile to me and I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to play there.

 

[Mark Kelly]

25 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

We can't keep them all. So, we sell off those who will not make it as part of the first-team squad, and we try to keep the best. However, sometimes they decide to move, and sometimes, the amount offered means that a sale is the best outcome for the club, as a business. Personally, I have no problem with letting Mount go if he wants to go, or CHO. I don't want players who don't want to be here (cf. Lukaku). There is no way on this planet I would let Colwill go unless he demanded it. I would try to keep Conor because I think he fits our needs, but if someone offered a ludicrous amount of money, I would consider it. I'd be mad not to. 

The problem I have with it is that nominally a bid of £45m for Gallagher could be viewed as a good deal .

However , Gallagher has two years of Premier League experience and has proven robust and not susceptible to injury , is flexible and wants to succeed at Chelsea .

To spend 90%  of that income on Kudus (as an example) with no Premier League experience and a questionable injury record (he's even injured now)  strikes me as someone playing FM2023 where every shiny bauble we don't own is rated a better deal than the player we do own  and I believe it's due entirely to the fact that they want to increase the worth of the Gallagher income to game the FFP system .

If he and Chalobah weren't Youth team players with no cost against them they wouldn't be looking to cash in as they are both perfectly adequate rotation squad players.  

[MickyDroy]

8 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I fear you've done a ROTG and been a little premature.

To claim neither Casadei or Santos are suitable to a pivot is a bit silly at this point, neither have played a single minute of first team football for us, Santos hasn't played at any level in this country, Casadei only championship. Both are very young and very talented and should be able to adapt.

The most important attribute to be able to play there is to be well rounded. A three man midfield allows you to use three different types of midfielders, in a pivot it's about a partnership where both need to complement each other and be able to do a bit of everything. Both Santos and Casadei look fairly versatile to me and I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to play there.

 

Santos is coming off a poor loan at Vasco after a step up from Serie B to A. He's looked decent enough in pre-season but there is no evidence he is ready for a lot of minutes for the first team. As it stands he's basically a nailed on starter and that should be unacceptable with pre season ending in a week.

The midfield is a complete mess. Whoever thinks we are fine at the moment are fooling themselves, we are one injury away from Santos - Casadei on opening day in the Premier League and for all their potential and all their youth - that would be one of the worst midfield in the entire league.

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by MickyDroy

[martin1905]

I doubt if anyone really wants to see Gallagher and Chalobah leave but anything over £40m for Gallagher is money you just can't turn down and as much as well all love Trev the reality is he's not really that great is he...

 

[martin1905]

2 minutes ago, MickyDroy said:

Santos is coming off a poor loan at Vasco after a step up from Serie B to A. He's looked decent enough in pre-season but there is no evidence he is ready for a lot of minutes for the first team. As it stands he's basically a nailed on starter and that should be unacceptable with pre season ending in a week.

The midfield is a complete mess. Whoever thinks we are fine at the moment are fooling themselves, we are one injury away from Santos - Casadei on opening day in the Premier League and for all their potential and all their youth - that would be one of the worst midfield in the entire league.

 

I've never suggested he is ready for a lot of first team minutes.

I'm not one to worry about hypotheticals and get worked up about what may or may not happen but I very much doubt we will go into the season with no new midfield players and at any point see Santos and Casadei start a single game for us next season.

[RDCW]

6 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The problem I have with it is that nominally a bid of £45m for Gallagher could be viewed as a good deal .

However , Gallagher has two years of Premier League experience and has proven robust and not susceptible to injury , is flexible and wants to succeed at Chelsea .

To spend 90%  of that income on Kudus (as an example) with no Premier League experience and a questionable injury record (he's even injured now)  strikes me as someone playing FM2023 where every shiny bauble we don't own is rated a better deal than the player we do own  and I believe it's due entirely to the fact that they want to increase the worth of the Gallagher income to game the FFP system .

If he and Chalobah weren't Youth team players with no cost against them they wouldn't be looking to cash in as they are both perfectly adequate rotation squad players.  

Exactly. The idea that the rate of attrition we have seen in the most successful youth set up in our history is just natural wastage is utterly ludicrous. We are habitually letting players go who would be useful squad players and who could well have developed into more if they had stayed with the club. You have to read the words of departed players who have said they saw no means of making it with Chelsea. 

Such failure to integrate the riches of our academy system into the first team squad would be mitigated if we had indeed been consistently able to fins better players for better money elsewhere, but the fact is we haven't and we can't.

[MickyDroy]

Just now, martin1905 said:

I've never suggested he is ready for a lot of first team minutes.

I'm not one to worry about hypotheticals and get worked up about what may or may not happen but I very much doubt we will go into the season with no new midfield players and at any point see Santos and Casadei start a single game for us next season.

I interpreted this as that but sorry if I misunderstood you:

Both Santos and Casadei look fairly versatile to me and I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to play there.

You may be right but two months ago when Ugarte rejected us I assume many would have said we'd never go into pre-season with no new midfielders either and here we are. Bottom line is that pre-season will very likely end before any new midfielder will have been able to play a single game with for example Enzo Fernandez and that is not good enough.

 

[martin1905]

13 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The problem I have with it is that nominally a bid of £45m for Gallagher could be viewed as a good deal .

However , Gallagher has two years of Premier League experience and has proven robust and not susceptible to injury , is flexible and wants to succeed at Chelsea .

To spend 90%  of that income on Kudus (as an example) with no Premier League experience and a questionable injury record (he's even injured now)  strikes me as someone playing FM2023 where every shiny bauble we don't own is rated a better deal than the player we do own  and I believe it's due entirely to the fact that they want to increase the worth of the Gallagher income to game the FFP system .

If he and Chalobah weren't Youth team players with no cost against them they wouldn't be looking to cash in as they are both perfectly adequate rotation squad players.  

I don't see Kudus or Olise or Cherki as replacements for Gallagher.

I think he was seen as someone that could potentially play deeper but he just can't so we are looking to sell him and bring in one other midfielder, along with Caicedo.

Caicedo has clearly been out number one target all summer. We, from what I have been told, and all the players linked to us and it's fairly obvious looking at our squad, are looking at another AM, Cherki-Olise-Kudus, who can all play through the middle as cover for Nkunku and on the right, where we only have Madueke. So that makes sense. Obviously a striker too.

The injury to Fofana has no doubt thrown a spanner in the works but if we can sell Chalobah and Gallagher and bring in a centre half and more suited midfielder to replace Gallagher then it makes perfect sense.

[Morgs]

9 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

 

The injury to Fofana has no doubt thrown a spanner in the works but if we can sell Chalobah and Gallagher and bring in a centre half and more suited midfielder to replace Gallagher then it makes perfect sense.

I see what you're saying Martin but it only makes perfect sense IF we are able to sign the players we need. 

If clubs like Brighton know we are in a hurry and want to bend us over on the fee then we need to push back but then the deal doesn't get done. 

[martin1905]

13 minutes ago, MickyDroy said:

I interpreted this as that but sorry if I misunderstood you:

Both Santos and Casadei look fairly versatile to me and I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to play there.

You may be right but two months ago when Ugarte rejected us I assume many would have said we'd never go into pre-season with no new midfielders either and here we are. Bottom line is that pre-season will very likely end before any new midfielder will have been able to play a single game with for example Enzo Fernandez and that is not good enough.

 

No worries, I meant that I don't see why either can't play deeper, in a pivot, in general.

It's not unusual to not have your squad ready during pre season, it's generally the norm. In an ideal world we would all, especially the managers, love  our transfer dealings to be done by the end of June, ready for the start of pre season but it never happens, perhaps it should but it just never does.

United have been pretty ruthless with replacing De Gae and for reasons that aren't about the ability of being an actual goalkeeper, yet haven't played a single minute with Onana in goal and they have no striker. City have only replaced Gündoğan with Kovacic. Liverpool too only making like for like replacements.

The point being, nobody's squad is ready now, yet alone was for the start of pre season and none of them had to deal with getting rid of all the players we had to, which was far more important.

I will share your concerns if we don't bring anyone in in time for Liverpool but until then sit back and enjoy the usual yearly hysteria.

[kev61]

15 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

No worries, I meant that I don't see why either can't play deeper, in a pivot, in general.

 

What is a pivot in footballing terms.It's a ridiculous concept invented by people who play football on line.

[Holymoly]

On 24/07/2023 at 09:39, paulw66 said:

You're right, assuming Ziyech goes, Gabriel and Morreira are loaned, that leaves only Madukeke as a RW. Sterling and Mudryk better on the left.

Morreira seems to think he will be in the squad for the season

[Holymoly]

1 hour ago, MickyDroy said:

I interpreted this as that but sorry if I misunderstood you:

Interesting name you've chosen then. I'm assuming, from the apologetic tone of your post, that he wasn't your hero?

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

I fear you've done a ROTG and been a little premature.

To claim neither Casadei or Santos are suitable to a pivot is a bit silly at this point, neither have played a single minute of first team football for us, Santos hasn't played at any level in this country, Casadei only championship. Both are very young and very talented and should be able to adapt.

The most important attribute to be able to play there is to be well rounded. A three man midfield allows you to use three different types of midfielders, in a pivot it's about a partnership where both need to complement each other and be able to do a bit of everything. Both Santos and Casadei look fairly versatile to me and I see no reason why they wouldn't be able to play there.

 

Wouldn't say its premature, it's more simply taking note of the type of players they are, how they've previously been used in the football they have played up until now, and whether their skillsets align with the necessary ones needed to properly play in a pivot generally speaking, much less in the Premier League. 

Santos is maybe the only exception because he has actually played a defensive role on occasion, however he's still very much a box-to-box player and we'd not be making use of his best qualities. Still wouldn't have him any higher than 4th choice, and he'd be backing up Enzo not whoever ends up being the his more defensively minded partner. 

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

What is a pivot in footballing terms.It's a ridiculous concept invented by people who play football on line.

https://footballhandbook.com/what-is-a-pivot-in-football/

[paulw66]

2 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

Quite, and this is exactly why our youth system operates at the scale it does. Because there are so many variables that cannot really be predicted or mitigated against, not just in football terms but in life generally. So you aim for overproduction, to bring through more players than you realistically could use. Because you can't always predict with accuracy who will just stop improving, who will do both ACLs, who will fall in with a party crowd, who will just fall out of love with football, whose family will move away, who will get an offer that feels a better fit for them, and so on. The sheer number of players we have seen move on is the exact function and consequence of the number we have brought through. 

Nicely put. 

I often feel the reason we get so much criticism for selling academy players is due largely to the fact we have produced so many. 

 

[Mark Kelly]

1 minute ago, xceleryx said:

https://footballhandbook.com/what-is-a-pivot-in-football/

Enjoyable read and very Chelsea-centric 

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, MickyDroy said:

Santos is coming off a poor loan at Vasco after a step up from Serie B to A. He's looked decent enough in pre-season but there is no evidence he is ready for a lot of minutes for the first team. As it stands he's basically a nailed on starter and that should be unacceptable with pre season ending in a week.

The midfield is a complete mess. Whoever thinks we are fine at the moment are fooling themselves, we are one injury away from Santos - Casadei on opening day in the Premier League and for all their potential and all their youth - that would be one of the worst midfield in the entire league.

What we ideally need is a Matic type, someone that can both drop back to collect the ball from the defence when we're building through possession and progress it forward, along with also being able to stand in the right spots defensively to cut passes out and help shield the defence. 

None of the younger lads we've got that play in midfield have games that fill these needs from a defensive aspect. They all either suit box-to-box or more offensively minded roles like with an #8 where they can arrive late into the box and impact the final third. 

[ROTG]

7 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

https://footballhandbook.com/what-is-a-pivot-in-football/

https://socialballroom.dance/ballroom-dance-spins-pivots-vs-pivoting-actions

[xceleryx]

2 minutes ago, ROTG said:

https://socialballroom.dance/ballroom-dance-spins-pivots-vs-pivoting-actions

https://www.howtogeek.com/701536/how-to-use-pivot-tables-to-analyze-excel-data/

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Also, provided we can get a replacement, 50m for Gallagher is bite-your-hand-off territory

thank heavens for the likes of Frank Arnessen, Micheal Emenalo, Neil Bath and most of all RA in believing and investing in youth academy and it merits.

I doubt academy will ever reach the same level of success with the youth teams and subsequence development and fees paid for players from that era.

Maybe someone can work out how much coin the club made on selling players from the 5 on the trot youth cup winners between 2014 & 2018 

[Lump Of Celery]

23 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Nicely put. 

I often feel the reason we get so much criticism for selling academy players is due largely to the fact we have produced so many. 

 

More PL minutes produced last season than any other academy in fact (by 27 Seconds!)

Academy study shows Chelsea and Arsenal produce most Premier League players | The Independent

[Dale86]

17 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

https://www.howtogeek.com/701536/how-to-use-pivot-tables-to-analyze-excel-data/

Pivot

[Lump Of Celery]

1 hour ago, Holymoly said:

Interesting name you've chosen then. I'm assuming, from the apologetic tone of your post, that he wasn't your hero?

 

23 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

What we ideally need is a Matic type, someone that can .... stand in the right spots 

*Waits to see if bait is taken* 

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Dale86 said:

Pivot

I knew what it was before I clicked , but still clicked.