Transfer Talk Topic

[ROTG]

7 hours ago, paulw66 said:

As far as I know Jackson and Vlahovic don't play any other positions either, so you have two guys battling for one spot, when we'll have 45 games ish, max. Is one of them going to happy with 15-20 starts? 

Hence the club paids Poch millions to keep the squad happy. Also although they are no9's one would guess they have different strengths and weaknesses.

It would also be nice to have two big No9's to throw on if the team is chasing a game. "I cannot remember the last time the club had that type of option."

[ChelseaJambo]

I'm not really sure why (wasn't really keen on Poch before the appointment and we've not made blockbuster signings) but I'm feeling really good about the season ahead and really looking forward to it.

The team look happier in the social clips, I'm liking what Poch is saying and I'm excited about Jackson and I think we'll see Enzo really shine too this year.

[bertles86]

7 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Well, it's a brainer for me. 

We have no Europe this year. If Jackson can continue this form, and we only play with one striker, and we have Nkunku who can fill in, plus Broja if need be. 

As far as I know Jackson and Vlahovic don't play any other positions either, so you have two guys battling for one spot, when we'll have 45 games ish, max. Is one of them going to happy with 15-20 starts? 

 

It makes sense for me. Hark back to 2014-15 when we won the league and league cup. We did that with Drogba, Costa and Remy. Any team needs 2-3 first team strikers to breed competition, keep strikers hungry and of course for injury cover. Not to mention give a different profile against different opponents. Jackson looks great, but if we sit back to hit on the counter and Dyche's Everton counter that by also sitting back, then we're in that Sarri/Tuchel style situ where we have 70% possession but can't break through because they sit deep and we don't have anyone like Giroud to play off. That could be Vlahovic. 

 

The only proviso would be ensuring we play to Vlaho's strengths with the right formation and tactics, otherwise it'll be Lukaku and Tuchel all over again.

[ROTG]

9 minutes ago, bertles86 said:

 

 

The only proviso would be ensuring we play to Vlaho's strengths with the right formation and tactics, otherwise it'll be Lukaku and Tuchel all over again.

Poch seemed to push the right buttons for Kane

[thevelourfog]

8 hours ago, paulw66 said:

As far as I know Jackson and Vlahovic don't play any other positions either, so you have two guys battling for one spot, when we'll have 45 games ish, max. Is one of them going to happy with 15-20 starts? 

16 starts for Jackson last season. I think he'd live with competition and not starting every game, and that he shouldn't be here if not.

[paulw66]

1 minute ago, thevelourfog said:

16 starts for Jackson last season. I think he'd live with competition and not starting every game, and that he shouldn't be here if not.

There's a big gap between "not starting every game" and maybe ending up with 50%

[paulw66]

45 minutes ago, bertles86 said:

It makes sense for me. Hark back to 2014-15 when we won the league and league cup. We did that with Drogba, Costa and Remy. Any team needs 2-3 first team strikers to breed competition, keep strikers hungry and of course for injury cover. Not to mention give a different profile against different opponents. Jackson looks great, but if we sit back to hit on the counter and Dyche's Everton counter that by also sitting back, then we're in that Sarri/Tuchel style situ where we have 70% possession but can't break through because they sit deep and we don't have anyone like Giroud to play off. That could be Vlahovic. 

 

The only proviso would be ensuring we play to Vlaho's strengths with the right formation and tactics, otherwise it'll be Lukaku and Tuchel all over again.

In 2014/15 Costa was the main striker and was injured a fair bit. Drogba was 35 and Remy cost peanuts

Vlahovic is neither 

[Chelsea_Matt]

This chap from Juve can’t be worse than fatty boom boom, could he? And he’d be cheaper wages-wise.

[Sciatika]

To me, it's a cost-benefit thing. If the sum total of wages and fees is less than the equivalent to the existing player, then even if Vlahovic is unable to fight his way into the match day squad, then we are up on the deal. If not, then we should simply relegate RL to training on his own. If he wants to play football then he will have to move to a club that will have him (e.g. Saudi).

[Morgs]

11 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

He was much hyped but his star has fallen a lot during his time in Italy. You have to wonder what his chances of doing well would be in the higher level of the EPL? Not great, I would say!

I think its about how you use him. If you want a very quick, agile number nine playing on the shoulder of the last man and peeling off either side of his man to receive the little cute diagonal balls into feet to roast the defender for pace and finish ala Liverpool Torres then Vlahovic isn't your guy. 

If you want a sort of mix between Mark Hughes, Mick Harford and Diego Costa - an aggressive lump, dominant in the air and incredibly powerful who receives the ball with his back to goal and whose game is about either turning the defender or pulling defenders away to create space - then he is (when fit) a class act. He's an instinctive, deadly finisher and at 6"3 is a massive lump for defenders to contend with.  He's all about aggression and power and bullying centre-halves. 

He's not quick, he isn't delicate and he isn't subtle but he does give you a plan B. I could imagine when teams drop deep against us and the pace of Jackson and Nkunku, Mudryk etc are nullified, we are getting pressed out of the game in the final third and cant make balls stick, he is your ideal option to bring off the bench because that's what he does. Your balls forward stick. He knocks them down and forces defenders to get tight to him to contest them which creates space. He's also a huge threat at set pieces because he loves to make those powerful late runs from a standing start to get on the end of them. We have a lot of good crossers at the club and he is someone who can and will attack crosses. 

I'd contend that his lack of pace isn't much of an issue as Costa, Giroud, Mick Harford and Sparky for example were classic aggressive hold-the-ball-up number nines for us and none of them had much pace either.  He maybe lacks the finesse to be truly appreciated at Juve as they love artful, delicate strikers who create and make things happen. He's a much more blunt instrument.

The issue as I see it is that he cant stay fit for more than five minutes but players of his type - aggressive, strong, physical lumps - will always have more muscle pulls and bruises etc. If you can keep him fit he is a proper option to change things off the bench. He'll find himself in trouble with Refs a lot as he loves a battle and has a nasty bas*ard streak a mile wide (which lets be honest, we love to see) but he isnt someone who you can press and kick out of games as happened to us all too often last season. 

I'm not saying he is the answer to all our problems but is only 23, he allows us to get The Cheesecake Factory off our wage books and away from the dressing room, he does give us another option and I do feel that his talents and style are probably better suited to the Prem than in Italy where they still frown a bit on "agricultural" strikers who are all elbows and pushes. It is precisely this that we missed last season.  He's quite underrated technically which is the only reason he is at Juve I reckon. 

I also think he is the sort of lad who will do what he does and be absolutely idolised by our (matchgoing) fans very quickly once he starts scoring goals and putting himself about, having the media turn on him etc. They are a bit snooty about players like him in Italy but we absolutely love that sort of player at Chelsea. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Morgs

[ROTG]

18 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

To me, it's a cost-benefit thing. If the sum total of wages and fees is less than the equivalent to the existing player, then even if Vlahovic is unable to fight his way into the match day squad, then we are up on the deal

Agree - seems a win win situation for the club, in moving on Pillsbury dough boy and getting someone in who still has something to prove and is coming into his prime years and cost less than potentials the club is buying to loan out

[Morgs]

Sorry I'm having an uncharacteristically optimistic rush of blood to the head but...

Imagine if in two weeks it looks like this, as I am starting to think it could do. 

 

 

Kepa, Sanchez, Bettinelli

James, Gusto

Disasi, Chalobah, Silva, Colwill, Badiashile

Chilwell, Maatsen 

Caicedo, Enzo, Santos,

Gallagher, Olise, Casadei, Chukwuemeka

Mudryk, Sterling, Madueke, Moreira 

Jackson, Vlahovic, Nkunku

 

Meaning Ziyech, Lukaku, Pulisic, Kovacic, CHO, Koulibaly, Ampadu, RLC, Cucurella, Mendy, Azpilicueta, Kante, Rahman and the rest have been moved on and we got really good money for most of them, plus good loans for Hall, Broja, Gabriel, Ugochukwu, Gilchrist, Humphries and so on. 

That is borderline miraculous. Quite astonishingly good.

Carlsberg don't do summer transfer windows, etc.... 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Morgs

[Mark Kelly]

^^^^^^

Think I'd prefer Gabriel over Moreira personally and I expect that Chalobah will be gone by then but other than that...

[Morgs]

9 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

^^^^^^

Think I'd prefer Gabriel over Moreira personally and I expect that Chalobah will be gone by then but other than that...

Kepa, Sanchez, Bettinelli

James, Gusto

Disasi, Humphries, Silva, Colwill, Badiashile

Chilwell, Maatsen 

Caicedo, Enzo, Santos,

Gallagher, Olise, Casadei, Chukwuemeka

Mudryk, Sterling, Madueke, Gabriel

Jackson, Vlahovic, Nkunku

 

😍

[paulw66]

8 minutes ago, Morgs said:

Kepa, Sanchez, Bettinelli

James, Gusto

Disasi, Humphries, Silva, Colwill, Badiashile

Chilwell, Maatsen 

Caicedo, Enzo, Santos,

Gallagher, Olise, Casadei, Chukwuemeka

Mudryk, Sterling, Madueke, Gabriel

Jackson, Vlahovic, Nkunku

 

😍

That's 5 more signings for the first team. Can't see it. Assuming Disasi is done, then CM has to be the priority. 

[CarefreeMuratcan]

This Vlahovic development has been a very very pleasant surprise. He is exactly the kind of striker we need and the environment we are now fostering will ensure he thrives. He wasn't too good at Juventus, but they are as toxic of an environment as we were last season. 

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

There's a big gap between "not starting every game" and maybe ending up with 50%

Yeah I am kinda with you on this. I think another striker for this season is overkill. Nothing against Vlahovic as a player as such, though he is one of those players I have not every really watched to much. He does remind me a little of a left footed version of Morata, but one who can handle the physical side a bit better.

I think Jackson deserves the chance to start as our No9. If he does perform well in the first 5-10 games, then we just don't have the volume of games to rotate for different competitions. We have Nkunku who can operate there, we will have Broja back soon enough to come off the bench and provide a different option. We also have Sterling who can operate there if we are ever in a situation where we need to consider a 4th option, possibly 5th if Burstow hangs around (though you would expect a loan for him)

I don't really have any doubts that Jackson will prove to be a very useful signing. He may end up fading as the season progresses, as that can often happen with players in their first season in England. We can address that situation in January, as well as reassess the Broja situation then. Maybe he will need a loan if he is not getting many minutes.

Priority has to be midfield and another GK option right now.

[martin1905]

11 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Well, it's a brainer for me. 

We have no Europe this year. If Jackson can continue this form, and we only play with one striker, and we have Nkunku who can fill in, plus Broja if need be. 

As far as I know Jackson and Vlahovic don't play any other positions either, so you have two guys battling for one spot, when we'll have 45 games ish, max. Is one of them going to happy with 15-20 starts? 

 

Problem with playing Nkunku there is two fold. Firstly, he really isn't a striker and I don't think should be considered there. At all.

Secondly, he will be absolutely key playing as our number 10 and we don't really have anyone else to play there, certainly not anywhere near the level he can.

As good as Jackson looks, and he looks like he will be a superstar we can not go into the season with him, having started  16 games last season and missed two months through injury and Broja, who lets face it hasn't looked all that, for us or when he was at Southampton.

Vlahovic is far, far more proven than Jackson too. 61 goals and 10 assists in Serie A in 140 games  and that's after playing under Allegri for two seasons. Plenty to be read about that subject if you wish.

Would I pay the rumoured £70/80m for him? Absolutely no chance, but and it's the biggest thing for me, we can't sell Lukaku. Literally nobody wants him, except Juventus, who can't sign him unless they sell Vlahovic, which  isn't going to happen for the price they want .

So Lukaku plus £20/30m for a proven striker, who is still only 23 and has only really stagnated, rather than going massively backwards and the reason for that could well be the horrible 'football' Allegri plays. 

I watched a fair bit of him at Fiorentina as I'd heard a lot about him and was interested, he was coming through at a similar time to Haaland and wanted to make my own mind up about the two of them. He was quality and no surprise Juventus spent £80m+ on him, when he was still only 21.

I still think another striker is a necessity and a handful of good half's in pre season, no matter how impressed with Jackson I have been, doesn't change that. He will 100% start the season as first choice and we go from there. If nothing else it's incredibly healthy competition and we can't just be thinking about the upcoming season when opportunities like this come up.

[martin1905]

4 hours ago, ROTG said:

Caicedo might well be a good addition to the squad but not at 100m muted, The Arse may have paid over the top for Rice, however he had several seasons playing at a certain level in the PL unlike Ciacedio. I do believe at one point on the old forum you championed for him?

Never championed for Rice, always said I liked him but he was massively overrated and would be  massively over priced so we would never go anywhere near him, and rightly so.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Rice is going to be seen as a massive flop, due to Arsenal being poor, Arteta getting sacked and his price tag. I also have no doubt whatsoever that Caicedo will prove to be worth every penny and be out most important player next season.

As you keep banging on about, it's all about August 13th onwards, so we shall see.

4 hours ago, ROTG said:

Yes it does, because he is a total dud which cost 60m and there is no evidence that supports players form Brighton can step up a level when they move on.

 

On the positive side at least Winstanley & Co. managed to mug the Arse for 70m.

Again, I see no relevance to how individual players have done since leaving Brighton. Were not talking about them, were talking about Caicedo.

4 hours ago, ROTG said:

Obviously, the club have other Idea's, not forgetting Badiashille is out injured and will miss the start of the season and will probably need a couple of weeks thereafter to meet Poch fitness levels, so I doubt he will be seen for the first 4-6 games of the season.

I don't think giving Colwill a new contract really means they, or more importantly Pochettino, see him as better than Badiashille. Strange conclusion you've made there.

Again, as you keep saying, August 13th......

 

[Thiago97]

7 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Problem with playing Nkunku there is two fold. Firstly, he really isn't a striker and I don't think should be considered there. At all.

Secondly, he will be absolutely key playing as our number 10 and we don't really have anyone else to play there, certainly not anywhere near the level he can.

 

He can play there absolutely fine and he has played there well for RB. I don't disagree that I probably prefer him in that roaming role from the left and No10 position. I think his skillset is well suited this role and he is a clever player.

The man himself though has even gone on record as saying he prefers playing as a No9 . He is happy to play anywhere in the forward positions, but regards No9 as his role.

That gives us 2 very good options, with a third option of a young N09 who we probably don't to rush too much into action after a serious injury. Plus other forwards who can cover if we need them too. As we are only likely to be playing 50 games, including good cup runs. That should be more than enough than throwing another one into the mix who is going to expect to play.

[Lump Of Celery]

2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

^^^^^^

Think I'd prefer Gabriel over Moreira personally and I expect that Chalobah will be gone by then but other than that...

According to the Strasbourg president, Gabriel is joining them on loan after the tour of the USA. Perhaps we can still change our mind on that, but I agree he looks better than Moreira (Who I don't think looks good enough yet). Although form that squad posted we would have Chuk and Maatsen that could fill in on the wing, and Kudus/Olise if signed

[Dale86]

2 hours ago, Morgs said:

I think its about how you use him. If you want a very quick, agile number nine playing on the shoulder of the last man and peeling off either side of his man to receive the little cute diagonal balls into feet to roast the defender for pace and finish ala Liverpool Torres then Vlahovic isn't your guy. 

Thanks for this write up on Vlahovic, haven't seen a second of him play but if he stays true to the style you've described then he could be a fantastic option for us to have. If you combine his strengths and what I've seen from Jackson and Nkunku in pre-season you have a pretty deadly attacking force. Like you said further down your post, having the ability to change a game where the speedy counter isn't working, is absolutely necessary, especially in the league. 

[Thiago97]

4 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Never championed for Rice, always said I liked him but he was massively overrated and would be  massively over priced so we would never go anywhere near him, and rightly so.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Rice is going to be seen as a massive flop, due to Arsenal being poor, Arteta getting sacked and his price tag. I also have no doubt whatsoever that Caicedo will prove to be worth every penny and be out most important player next season.

 

 

I think you are suffering from wishful thinking here. You were making similar noises around Arsenal last season, when others were highlighting how they had strengthened.

Rice is simply a better all round footballer than Caicedo. He's a leader who can control midfields and brings strong experience for someone of his age , he again raises the standards at Arsenal. He can also operate at CB if required too.

Caicedo is a much better athlete who has had 1 season doing very well at Brighton. If you watch him play though, he is almost a back up player for the team. He supports and helps out the defence, presses well from midfield and recycles possession. He does all these things well, yet none of them spectacular enough to warrant £100m fee. He may be a decent signing, but we are getting mugged off at £100m

[martin1905]

7 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

He can play there absolutely fine and he has played there well for RB. I don't disagree that I probably prefer him in that roaming role from the left and No10 position. I think his skillset is well suited this role and he is a clever player.

The man himself though has even gone on record as saying he prefers playing as a No9 . He is happy to play anywhere in the forward positions, but regards No9 as his role.

That gives us 2 very good options, with a third option of a young N09 who we probably don't to rush too much into action after a serious injury. Plus other forwards who can cover if we need them too. As we are only likely to be playing 50 games, including good cup runs. That should be more than enough than throwing another one into the mix who is going to expect to play.

Very rarely, if ever played up there on his own though. Transfermarkt, who are incredibly accurate for this, have him as playing 15 times there, in his entire career.

As for saying his best position, is that recent where he just said he likes playing close to goal or an older interview?

[Lump Of Celery]

6 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Never championed for Rice, always said I liked him but he was massively overrated

 

TBF to ROTG I'm fairly certain I remember you championing him, only since he was signing for Arsenal has he become overrated. Was it you that also saw him becoming a top CB last summer, I know one member was saying that