Transfer Talk Topic

[chara]

26 minutes ago, Original 21 said:

So I have a day off then log on to Twitter, or ‘X’ as it’s called now, and it appears that: 

Kudus is going to Brighton.

We’re about to splurge £95m on Caicedo. 

We’re going to trigger Tyler Adams’ £20m release clause.

Have bid 25m for Olise, even though he’s out injured.

Still thinking about swapping Lukaku for Vlahovic.

Ziyech is still a Chelsea player.

And what did you learn from all that?...different day same old media buffoonery!

[xceleryx]

7 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

If you haven't seen it , it was hilarious , not quite as hilarious as sweeper keeper Obama being lobbed from the halfway line but nice to see anyway.

And here is the vulnerable nature of Onana. The Premier League is rather different to playing in Holland or Italy, it's a quicker league and teams press more intensively, it's imperative for Man Utd that they retain possession and don't turn it over cheaply around the half way line with any regularity, otherwise he's going to be caught out if he has such a high starting position or tries to get too fancy on the ball under pressure. 

Also Mount's little fluffing of his lines put a smile on my face to see. 

[kev61]

I don't see any player that unduly worried me in pre -season except maybe Casadei. 

Nkunku,Gusto and Jackson look class.Kepa doesn't worry me like he does some folk.He's not the greatest keeper in the world but he is far from being a liability.

All things considered I think we are a handful for any team,and can only get better with proper coaching.

Still like to see a midfielder that is an all rounder.If only the likes of Kante grew on trees.

Edited August 6, 2023 by kev61

[RDCW]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

I don't see any player that unduly worried me in pre -season except maybe Casadei. 

Nkunku,Gusto and Jackson look class.Kepa doesn't worry me like he does some folk.He's not the greatest keeper in the world but he is far from being a liability.

All things considered I think we are a handful for any team,and can only get better with proper coaching.

Still like to see a midfielder that is an all rounder.If only the likes of Kante grew on trees.

We don't need another Kante, we need another Makekele.

[kev61]

44 minutes ago, RDCW said:

We don't need another Kante, we need another Makekele.

We don't "need" another Kante?You'r right we don't "need" another Kante because it is impossible to get someone that comes close.

Makekele was good but not Kante good - and to stop this going further it is a matter of opinion.

[Chelsea_Matt]

1 hour ago, RDCW said:

We don't need another Kante, we need another Makekele.

Why not? NG was amazing. And in my view he was just as influential as the legendary Maka. 

[kev61]

29 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

Why not? NG was amazing. And in my view he was just as influential as the legendary Maka. 

You're not going to get a true assessment  of Kante on here.

Maka was a spoiler.He stopped the opposition playing.Kante could do that but offered much more.

[RDCW]

47 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

Why not? NG was amazing. And in my view he was just as influential as the legendary Maka. 

Different roles. Kante was not a holding midfielder, which us what we need in the current squad.

[Chelsea_Matt]

7 minutes ago, RDCW said:

Different roles. Kante was not a holding midfielder, which us what we need in the current squad.

He was in the sense he was a ball-winner all over the park which is what we need. Failing that imo a nasty brute in midfield will do us just fine. NG and Maka were both brilliant; either style will do for me because while the defence looks much physically tougher and mentally resilient we need a bit more of that in midfield. Once we get that (and Zyech and Fatty Boom Boom moved on), it’s a perfect window imo. God forbid Todd ‘n’ Eggy get credit for that here eh? 🤪 @ROTG 

[Sciatika]

I have always felt that Maka's best weapon was his smile.  

[kev61]

13 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

I have always felt that Maka's best weapon was his smile.  

Indeed the smiling assassin.Top player in a limited position.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

He was in the sense he was a ball-winner all over the park which is what we need. Failing that imo a nasty brute in midfield will do us just fine. NG and Maka were both brilliant; either style will do for me because while the defence looks much physically tougher and mentally resilient we need a bit more of that in midfield. Once we get that (and Zyech and Fatty Boom Boom moved on), it’s a perfect window imo. God forbid Todd ‘n’ Eggy get credit for that here eh? 🤪 @ROTG 

We ideally need less of a roaming ball-winner though, which I believe is the underlying point @RDCWwas putting forward. If we consider Enzo to be someone that needs a bit more freedom than he's been allowed to get since arriving, then ideally his partner is more disciplined positionally to sit and cover. As brilliant as Kante was, he was never this type of player. In fact, he required that same defensively disciplined partner to be fully maximised himself. 

We're also not really wanting our pivot to advance higher up the pitch too frequently. their primary job out of possession is going to see them sit in the middle opposed to press high to try and win the ball. In possession we'll have at least one fullback pushed up, the other tucked at times to form a 3ATB,  and Enzo roaming to make himself available in those half spaces for us to play through. There really isn't a need for a Kante-like ball-winner anymore. 

If anything the ideal prototype is Matic. 

[martin1905]

36 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

We ideally need less of a roaming ball-winner though, which I believe is the underlying point @RDCWwas putting forward. If we consider Enzo to be someone that needs a bit more freedom than he's been allowed to get since arriving, then ideally his partner is more disciplined positionally to sit and cover. As brilliant as Kante was, he was never this type of player. In fact, he required that same defensively disciplined partner to be fully maximised himself. 

We're also not really wanting our pivot to advance higher up the pitch too frequently. their primary job out of possession is going to see them sit in the middle opposed to press high to try and win the ball. In possession we'll have at least one fullback pushed up, the other tucked at times to form a 3ATB,  and Enzo roaming to make himself available in those half spaces for us to play through. There really isn't a need for a Kante-like ball-winner anymore. 

If anything the ideal prototype is Matic. 

Firstly, the bolded bit. We haven't seen that in pre season, at all. We haven't seen any fancy, new age Pep/Pep wannabe(Arteta) tactics. We've seen a good, old fashioned, pretty rigid 4231 where the roles of each player are pretty simple.

I believe, again basing this on what we have seen in pre season and the fact that we have gone all-in for Caicedo and no one else that the last type of player we need is a Matic or Makelele. Poch wants the pivot to be well rounded, do a bit of everything as opposed to a very rigid partnership along the lines of Fabregas and Matic, as an example where both players were extremely limited in certain parts of the game and both had different jobs to do. The pairing will both be doing a bit of everything and the most exciting bit about the potential Enzo/Caicedo pairing is that they are both very good at everything but excell at opposite things.

I don't believe, for one second we are going to bring in Caicedo and ask him to just sit, like a Matic. I think the idea of having two, such well rounded players  is to complement one another but also to be able to do each others job, to an extent.

If Enzo is further forward, trying to make things happen higher up the pitch  then no doubt Caicedo will sit a bit deeper but once we lose the ball, it will be Enzo that becomes the deeper of the two and Caicedo will be the one that joins the press and goes looking to win the ball back high up. When we do he is more than adequate at making things happen with the ball whilst Enzo is more than capable of covering further back. At that stage, once we are comfortable in possession, in the opponent's half, the two will lost likely switch again, allowing Enzo to be the more creative and Caicedo hiding back a bit.

It's why they are such a good pairing and why we have put all our eggs in the Caicedo basket. It's literally shit or bust and our season hinges on his signing, which is why it will happen.

Enzo, playing alongside Rice, as an example would be nowhere near as effective, people would be screaming out for a more creative player, which he just isn't. I've seen it far, far too many times when teams play a pivot, it becomes all about what the two aren't doing as it's very rare to find two that complement each other so well, where both can contribute to the defensive side of the game, the press and the attacking part.

I'm not sure how much people have seen of Caicedo, and I'm not aiming this at you, but I can only imagine it's not that much. He's a far, far better player than some on here are giving him credit for and absolutely no doubt a much better all round footballer than the one dimensional Declan Rice.

That being said Rice in a three man midfield is king, sitting at the base but in a pivot he'd be wasted whereas Enzo and Caicedo is THE perfect pair.

[SideshowLuiz]

18 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Firstly, the bolded bit. We haven't seen that in pre season, at all. We haven't seen any fancy, new age Pep/Pep wannabe(Arteta) tactics. We've seen a good, old fashioned, pretty rigid 4231 where the roles of each player are pretty simple.

I believe, again basing this on what we have seen in pre season and the fact that we have gone all-in for Caicedo and no one else that the last type of player we need is a Matic or Makelele. Poch wants the pivot to be well rounded, do a bit of everything as opposed to a very rigid partnership along the lines of Fabregas and Matic, as an example where both players were extremely limited in certain parts of the game and both had different jobs to do. The pairing will both be doing a bit of everything and the most exciting bit about the potential Enzo/Caicedo pairing is that they are both very good at everything but excell at opposite things.

I don't believe, for one second we are going to bring in Caicedo and ask him to just sit, like a Matic. I think the idea of having two, such well rounded players  is to complement one another but also to be able to do each others job, to an extent.

If Enzo is further forward, trying to make things happen higher up the pitch  then no doubt Caicedo will sit a bit deeper but once we lose the ball, it will be Enzo that becomes the deeper of the two and Caicedo will be the one that joins the press and goes looking to win the ball back high up. When we do he is more than adequate at making things happen with the ball whilst Enzo is more than capable of covering further back. At that stage, once we are comfortable in possession, in the opponent's half, the two will lost likely switch again, allowing Enzo to be the more creative and Caicedo hiding back a bit.

It's why they are such a good pairing and why we have put all our eggs in the Caicedo basket. It's literally shit or bust and our season hinges on his signing, which is why it will happen.

Enzo, playing alongside Rice, as an example would be nowhere near as effective, people would be screaming out for a more creative player, which he just isn't. I've seen it far, far too many times when teams play a pivot, it becomes all about what the two aren't doing as it's very rare to find two that complement each other so well, where both can contribute to the defensive side of the game, the press and the attacking part.

I'm not sure how much people have seen of Caicedo, and I'm not aiming this at you, but I can only imagine it's not that much. He's a far, far better player than some on here are giving him credit for and absolutely no doubt a much better all round footballer than the one dimensional Declan Rice.

That being said Rice in a three man midfield is king, sitting at the base but in a pivot he'd be wasted whereas Enzo and Caicedo is THE perfect pair.

Interesting analysis - as someone who hasn't watched much of Caicedo, which are the parts you think he excels in  compared to Enzo? And how do you feel about Tyler Adams?

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

it’s a perfect window imo. God forbid Todd ‘n’ Eggy get credit for that here eh? 🤪 @ROTG 

It’s not exactly credit, more like they are seeking repent for last season 😀

[kev61]

2 hours ago, RDCW said:

Different roles. Kante was not a holding midfielder, which us what we need in the current squad.

Kante could have been anything you wanted in midfield.

 

[ROTG]

24 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Firstly, the bolded bit. We haven't seen that in pre season, at all. We haven't seen any fancy, new age Pep/Pep wannabe(Arteta) tactics. We've seen a good, old fashioned, pretty rigid 4231 where the roles of each player are pretty simple.

I believe, again basing this on what we have seen in pre season and the fact that we have gone all-in for Caicedo and no one else that the last type of player we need is a Matic or Makelele. Poch wants the pivot to be well rounded, do a bit of everything as opposed to a very rigid partnership along the lines of Fabregas and Matic, as an example where both players were extremely limited in certain parts of the game and both had different jobs to do. The pairing will both be doing a bit of everything and the most exciting bit about the potential Enzo/Caicedo pairing is that they are both very good at everything but excell at opposite things.

I don't believe, for one second we are going to bring in Caicedo and ask him to just sit, like a Matic. I think the idea of having two, such well rounded players  is to complement one another but also to be able to do each others job, to an extent.

If Enzo is further forward, trying to make things happen higher up the pitch  then no doubt Caicedo will sit a bit deeper but once we lose the ball, it will be Enzo that becomes the deeper of the two and Caicedo will be the one that joins the press and goes looking to win the ball back high up. When we do he is more than adequate at making things happen with the ball whilst Enzo is more than capable of covering further back. At that stage, once we are comfortable in possession, in the opponent's half, the two will lost likely switch again, allowing Enzo to be the more creative and Caicedo hiding back a bit.

It's why they are such a good pairing and why we have put all our eggs in the Caicedo basket. It's literally shit or bust and our season hinges on his signing, which is why it will happen.

Enzo, playing alongside Rice, as an example would be nowhere near as effective, people would be screaming out for a more creative player, which he just isn't. I've seen it far, far too many times when teams play a pivot, it becomes all about what the two aren't doing as it's very rare to find two that complement each other so well, where both can contribute to the defensive side of the game, the press and the attacking part.

I'm not sure how much people have seen of Caicedo, and I'm not aiming this at you, but I can only imagine it's not that much. He's a far, far better player than some on here are giving him credit for and absolutely no doubt a much better all round footballer than the one dimensional Declan Rice.

That being said Rice in a three man midfield is king, sitting at the base but in a pivot he'd be wasted whereas Enzo and Caicedo is THE perfect pair.

The problem for me is the club might end up spending £200 plus millions on two midfield players who would not walk into any of the top teams in the PL or Europe.

Maybe the reality is the club have become a sustainable club rather than a winning club. 
 

I guess we will know more between matchday 1 and 38

[kev61]

34 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Firstly, the bolded bit. We haven't seen that in pre season, at all. We haven't seen any fancy, new age Pep/Pep wannabe(Arteta) tactics. We've seen a good, old fashioned, pretty rigid 4231 where the roles of each player are pretty simple.

I believe, again basing this on what we have seen in pre season and the fact that we have gone all-in for Caicedo and no one else that the last type of player we need is a Matic or Makelele. Poch wants the pivot to be well rounded, do a bit of everything as opposed to a very rigid partnership along the lines of Fabregas and Matic, as an example where both players were extremely limited in certain parts of the game and both had different jobs to do. The pairing will both be doing a bit of everything and the most exciting bit about the potential Enzo/Caicedo pairing is that they are both very good at everything but excell at opposite things.

I don't believe, for one second we are going to bring in Caicedo and ask him to just sit, like a Matic. I think the idea of having two, such well rounded players  is to complement one another but also to be able to do each others job, to an extent.

If Enzo is further forward, trying to make things happen higher up the pitch  then no doubt Caicedo will sit a bit deeper but once we lose the ball, it will be Enzo that becomes the deeper of the two and Caicedo will be the one that joins the press and goes looking to win the ball back high up. When we do he is more than adequate at making things happen with the ball whilst Enzo is more than capable of covering further back. At that stage, once we are comfortable in possession, in the opponent's half, the two will lost likely switch again, allowing Enzo to be the more creative and Caicedo hiding back a bit.

It's why they are such a good pairing and why we have put all our eggs in the Caicedo basket. It's literally shit or bust and our season hinges on his signing, which is why it will happen.

Enzo, playing alongside Rice, as an example would be nowhere near as effective, people would be screaming out for a more creative player, which he just isn't. I've seen it far, far too many times when teams play a pivot, it becomes all about what the two aren't doing as it's very rare to find two that complement each other so well, where both can contribute to the defensive side of the game, the press and the attacking part.

I'm not sure how much people have seen of Caicedo, and I'm not aiming this at you, but I can only imagine it's not that much. He's a far, far better player than some on here are giving him credit for and absolutely no doubt a much better all round footballer than the one dimensional Declan Rice.

That being said Rice in a three man midfield is king, sitting at the base but in a pivot he'd be wasted whereas Enzo and Caicedo is THE perfect pair.

You'r suffering with celeryitis.Get a grip Martin.

[Rob B]

6 minutes ago, ROTG said:

The problem for me is the club might end up spending £200 plus millions on two midfield players who would not walk into any of the top teams in the PL or Europe.

Maybe the reality is the club have become a sustainable club rather than a winning club. 

I guess we will know more between matchday 1 and 38

Aside from Man City and Real Madrid who are both in a league of their own when it comes to midfields, I think they do actually.

The top teams in Europe away from them are us, Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool, Bayern,  Barcelona and PSG, Napoli and Inter. 

Barcelona have just signed Oriel Romeu and an ageing Gundogan (as good as he is) on a free transfer.  Let’s not pretend they wouldn’t bite your hand off for Enzo at least.

PSG have just paid £60m for a slower, less athletic and older version of Caicedo in Ugarte, who isn’t Prem proven, whilst they have Verrati and Wijnaldum in their 30’s.

I’ve genuinely never heard of Napoli’s midfielders, not a single one,  and Man United paid £70m for Casemiro (great player) but he is 31.  I wonder who Man U fans would prefer - a 31 year old Casemiro or a 21 year old Caicedo?!  £60m for Mount with a year left on his deal, or Enzo for £100m on an 8 year contract?  Again, I know which represents better value - and I’m a Mount fan. 

Arsenal are perhaps the only club where you could argue the toss.  With Declan Rice, Odegard, Partey, Havertz, Smith-Rowe and Jorginho they have quality and depth, but I have no doubt that Arteta would take both in a heartbeat. 

Make no mistake about it, IF we get Caicedo we have a top, top pivot for many years to come.  You could argue we would be light on the ground if either get injured, but we have some great prospects lined up in Santos, Lewis Hall and Ugochukwu.  (I think Casadei and Chukwuemeka are better further up the field) 

[Floyd25]

36 minutes ago, Rob B said:

I’ve genuinely never heard of Napoli’s midfielders, not a single one

I watched them play a little bit, Zieliński and Elmas caught my eye, especially the latter whose still improving. Agree with the points you raised though on the whole, we get Caicedo and we do have the potential for a top class midfield. Some very talented young midfielders coming through as well like you say, we look pretty healthy in this position going forward, also think Castledine could be very good in a few years. 

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

Firstly, the bolded bit. We haven't seen that in pre season, at all. We haven't seen any fancy, new age Pep/Pep wannabe(Arteta) tactics. We've seen a good, old fashioned, pretty rigid 4231 where the roles of each player are pretty simple.

Not necessarily true. I actually broke this down a little the other week after one of the games, believe it was the one Cucurella provided that assist in, it just depends on who we've got in the side at the time. In short we saw a glimpse of - RJ and Chillwell together, RJ not quite as adventurous with the RW ahead of him playing wider. On the left Chilwell was getting forward and staying wide/high, with the LW tucking side a little narrower. When Cucurella has played at LB he's been tucked inside and forming somewhat of a 3ATB or playing that faux midfield position, while the RW had stayed higher and wider themselves. 

It's not as intricate as it might be under other managers, but it's certainly been there on occasion. 

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

I believe, again basing this on what we have seen in pre season and the fact that we have gone all-in for Caicedo and no one else that the last type of player we need is a Matic or Makelele. Poch wants the pivot to be well rounded, do a bit of everything as opposed to a very rigid partnership along the lines of Fabregas and Matic, as an example where both players were extremely limited in certain parts of the game and both had different jobs to do. The pairing will both be doing a bit of everything and the most exciting bit about the potential Enzo/Caicedo pairing is that they are both very good at everything but excell at opposite things.

I don't believe, for one second we are going to bring in Caicedo and ask him to just sit, like a Matic. I think the idea of having two, such well rounded players  is to complement one another but also to be able to do each others job, to an extent.

If Enzo is further forward, trying to make things happen higher up the pitch  then no doubt Caicedo will sit a bit deeper but once we lose the ball, it will be Enzo that becomes the deeper of the two and Caicedo will be the one that joins the press and goes looking to win the ball back high up. When we do he is more than adequate at making things happen with the ball whilst Enzo is more than capable of covering further back. At that stage, once we are comfortable in possession, in the opponent's half, the two will lost likely switch again, allowing Enzo to be the more creative and Caicedo hiding back a bit.

It's why they are such a good pairing and why we have put all our eggs in the Caicedo basket. It's literally shit or bust and our season hinges on his signing, which is why it will happen.

Enzo, playing alongside Rice, as an example would be nowhere near as effective, people would be screaming out for a more creative player, which he just isn't. I've seen it far, far too many times when teams play a pivot, it becomes all about what the two aren't doing as it's very rare to find two that complement each other so well, where both can contribute to the defensive side of the game, the press and the attacking part.

I'm not sure how much people have seen of Caicedo, and I'm not aiming this at you, but I can only imagine it's not that much. He's a far, far better player than some on here are giving him credit for and absolutely no doubt a much better all round footballer than the one dimensional Declan Rice.

That being said Rice in a three man midfield is king, sitting at the base but in a pivot he'd be wasted whereas Enzo and Caicedo is THE perfect pair.

Matic never really just "sat" though and I think that's a bit disingenuous to the role he played here at times. He has his moments getting forward and either playing a pass or rifling in a shot from range. Of course it wasn't in spades and it did vary a little under each manager he played under, but he was more than just a pure midfield anchor. 

With respects to Caicedo, there's more in his locker than just being a sitting player but it is also something he has done. We'll likely see both Enzo and Caicedo alternate at times when it comes to sitting deeper, but ideally you still have a primary job for both to prevent confusion and a lack of communication, which is something we saw last season when we'd end up with both midfielders pushed up and not one actually doing any covering deeper. The issue with what you've proposed with Enzo sitting back and Caicedo ball chasing higher up field is that it'll put us back into the dilemma of Enzo being isolated and not having the legs to cover all the ground necessary - a familiar problem of the past. 

The other factor in all of this is that Caicedo is basically the last good option out there in the market. Had we signed Ugarte earlier in the window, a far more defensive holder, then this discussion wouldn't be happening and we'd have a more orthodox player on our hands that would've genuinely sat. 

Either way I don't think Caicedo and Enzo make a bad pairing, it's more about the role Caicedo would have and whether it's more gears towards what we had in Kante, which for me is a red flag and puts us back to dealing with the same problems of prior years, or if it'll be a more reserved one that prioritises shape and organisation over pressing aggressively up field to win the ball back quicker. 

I suppose we'll find out one way or another should Caicedo sign. 

[jasonb]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

Kante could have been anything you wanted in midfield.

Except a goal scoring midfielder or even one creating regular assists................

 

[kev61]

10 minutes ago, jasonb said:

Except a goal scoring midfielder or even one creating regular assists................

 

Ha!.There is couch you need to lie on - not taking the piss but........

[jasonb]

He was exceptional at certain aspects of the game yet limited in others.

[kev61]

3 minutes ago, jasonb said:

He was exceptional at certain aspects of the game yet limited in others.

I'll leave it there Jason - what player on gods green earth isn't "limited" in one way or the other.