Transfer Talk Topic

[kev61]

13 minutes ago, chara said:

Sort of agree with you kev..Hall is young though....it's not so long ago that the forum was up in arms about CHO going off to Germany...I know the injury didn't help but here we are looking to off load him for whatever we can get.

KDB/Salah were a long way off what they became....doubt many saw more than a reasonable career for Salah and ..for me..KDB could have gone either way depending on other factors.

As ever luck has a lot of influence and having the skills is not enough.

True.I see Maatsen as 'potentially' a top class premiership player - many people will not agree but I see something in him.

[kev61]

On 14/08/2023 at 14:23, RDCW said:

The path to enlightenment is first to understand that you know nothing - the Socratic paradox, but we also need to acknowledge that opinions are like arseholes John Snow.

The path to enlightenment is a Buddhist philosophy and the meaning is to stay away from extremist views.

The socratic  paradox is a Greek philosophy and the meaning is accept you know nothing - completely different philosophies.

Edited August 17, 2023 by kev61

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, Floyd25 said:

We’ve brought in too many young players which leads to people like Hall being forced out and it’s avoidable. If you look at some of the players being prioritised ahead of him, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. I’m not sure that I buy that he ever wanted to leave anyway, what’s done is done and we move on. I said I wouldn’t get attached to academy players anymore ages ago, just hope we don’t regret this one. 

Hard to buy into this line of thinking personally when you consider most are wanting him to be playing left-back. We've literally purchased no one in this area outside of Cucurella, and prior to then Hall wasn't even a twinkle in anybodies eye at that point. Even putting Cucurella aside Hall would still be behind Maatsen, an actual fullback who has demonstrated a capability at a senior level for the role, and of course Chilwell a far superior player. 

If we looked at the midfield argument then sure, we've purchased other young players that he'll need to compete against for a place, but that's what happens at bigger clubs - there's always competition for places. You could also strongly argue that those we have signed are all better than Hall in this position, or at least demonstrated more. 

None of these even takes into the account the tactical fit within Poch's 4-2-3-1 either. Which adds another layer to the argument where it emphasises Hall not being, or having really played, as an actual fullback. Or how he fits into midfield pivot where he's certainly not a DM nor tempo controlling player like Enzo. 

Again, ideally he stays and fights for a place here but if he hasn't got that mentality he's more than welcome to use the door. We're not going to be a worse side because of his departure. 

[thevelourfog]

lol, did I genuinely read here that journalists don't lie about transfers, contracts, football in general? 

[ShedMiddle]

3 hours ago, kev61 said:

I don't see the potential in Hall that some people seem to.

He looks an average Graham le Saux - but in fairness I never saw the potential in KDB or Salah.

Don't agree. On his debut in the fa cup he was man of the match. He had stand out performances after that in his limited appearances.

The only problem I saw was that he should be a left wing back/left back but, saw himself as a midfielder. 

I am gutted because he has all the attributes to be the very best in that left back role. He is strong, fast, professional and very tidy on the ball.

[kev61]

4 minutes ago, ShedMiddle said:

Don't agree. On his debut in the fa cup he was man of the match. He had stand out performances after that in his limited appearances.

The only problem I saw was that he should be a left wing back/left back but, saw himself as a midfielder. 

I am gutted because he has all the attributes to be the very best in that left back role. He is strong, fast, professional and very tidy on the ball.

I respect your views.Look he's 18 -  I'm not about to tear him apart.He could well be the fish that got away.

[Floyd25]

2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Hard to buy into this line of thinking personally when you consider most are wanting him to be playing left-back. We've literally purchased no one in this area outside of Cucurella, and prior to then Hall wasn't even a twinkle in anybodies eye at that point. Even putting Cucurella aside Hall would still be behind Maatsen, an actual fullback who has demonstrated a capability at a senior level for the role, and of course Chilwell a far superior player. 

If we looked at the midfield argument then sure, we've purchased other young players that he'll need to compete against for a place, but that's what happens at bigger clubs - there's always competition for places. You could also strongly argue that those we have signed are all better than Hall in this position, or at least demonstrated more. 

None of these even takes into the account the tactical fit within Poch's 4-2-3-1 either. Which adds another layer to the argument where it emphasises Hall not being, or having really played, as an actual fullback. Or how he fits into midfield pivot where he's certainly not a DM nor tempo controlling player like Enzo. 

Again, ideally he stays and fights for a place here but if he hasn't got that mentality he's more than welcome to use the door. We're not going to be a worse side because of his departure. 

I don’t think Hall sees himself as a left back, but I think he could end up playing left wing actually. I’m not sure about Maatsen demonstrating capability at the left back role for us, I rate him but Poch doesn’t see him as a left back.

I’m not sure about Santos or Casadei or even Chuckwuemeka all being better than Hall to be honest, two of those three haven’t played for us yet and I’m not sure Chukwuemeka has a higher ceiling than Hall. 
 

Fully agree that it won’t affect us in the short term and I hope it wont come back to bite us. Anyway that’s my two cents, he’s going and that’s that. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by Floyd25

[Bison]

4 hours ago, DannyLB said:

Why shambles? He wants to go. After last season I couldn’t care less for any player not fully committed. Good luck to him. 

Again, why would he sign a 7 year deal if that was the case? 

[Mark Kelly]

29 minutes ago, Floyd25 said:

I don’t think Hall sees himself as a left back, but I think he could end up playing left wing actually. I’m not sure about Maatsen demonstrating capability at the left back role for us, I rate him but Poch doesn’t see him as a left back.

I’m not sure about Santos or Casadei or even Chuckwuemeka all being better than Hall to be honest, two of those three haven’t played for us yet and I’m not sure Chukwuemeka has a higher ceiling than Hall. 
 

Fully agree that it won’t affect us in the short term and I hope it wont come back to bite us. Anyway that’s my two cents, he’s going and that’s that. 

I feel like I'm swimming against the tide often on here but I'm with you with regards to Chukwuemeka , I have never seen him play for us and been remotely impressed with him , I get that he's young and I get that he hasn't had many sample games to judge him but I've seen plenty of other players , Gabriel , Casedei , Hall , Maatsen all look far more impressive than Chuk who appears to be able to run around a bit anonymously and garner praise from all quarters without influencing the game in any way shape or form.

Although that said if as we are being led to believe(?) that Hall wants out then I'm with Danny B that we really shouldn't be hanging on to players who don't want to stay. 

[Sleeping Dave]

36 minutes ago, Bison said:

Again, why would he sign a 7 year deal if that was the case? 

Since then we’ve bought midfielders to the tune of roughly £200m. So yeah, he’s pushed out and honestly who can blame him if he says fuck it?

I’m at loss how he was used so little during pre-season. 

[Sciatika]

There will be a whole range of academy players that we have to let go because not all of them will get the time to develop in our first team given the competition. I doubt CC will get much game time, either. While loans suit some, they tend not to work in key positions, such as the midfield, because the loaning club are reluctant to risk playing them. They end up on the bench for the season anyway and hoping that others are unable to play for some reason. As a left-sided midfielder, he might get a few games as a left-back in order to wedge him into a team, even though that is not his strength, but, in the end, that's not much use to him. I thought (and still think) Lewis Hall could be one of the really good ones. I thought the same about Livramento, Baker, JCS, and Ake. This will happen more and more because our academy provides us with some of the capital we need to build our squad. For a player like Hall, a permanent transfer to a top-level club where he can genuinely compete for a starting place might be a better option. The option to go to the club that is able to offer CL football and that he supports might be too good to refuse.

[Thiago97]

I don't want to lose Lewis Hall, but I think I have to see it from his perspective here. There is no doubt that what has gone on a Chelsea over the last 12 months is just a little crazy. This is different compared to say Mount, as Mount was clearly central to all that craziness and a well established player whose career was already made to some extent.

If you then get an offer from a big club who are clearly going places themselves, you will be closer to the first team in both your favoured position and your back up position lets say. You will be earning more money and have the chance to put down some roots at a football club, rather than being moved around on loans and never really knowing where your future is at Chelsea. Well I think you have to take that chance.

So whilst I don't want him to leave. I think it's too good an opportunity for him to not leave. I don't see this as he does not want to be here , or he is not prepared to fight for his place here.  It is a simple one in my mind, its a great opportunity that offers him more football,  more money, and a more stable environment for him to develop his career.

I would expect we will have either a buy back clause or significant sell on clause. Though its hard to accept, sometimes the right deal suits all parties. That's how I see this situation here and I wish him all the best .

Edited August 17, 2023 by Thiago97

[kev61]

1 hour ago, Floyd25 said:

I don’t think Hall sees himself as a left back, but I think he could end up playing left wing actually. 

The one thing I am sure of is Hall is not a winger regardless of age.

 

[paulw66]

People still thinking he signed that new deal, despite no confirmation from the club. 

 

Wibble. 

[paulw66]

2 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

lol, did I genuinely read here that journalists don't lie about transfers, contracts, football in general? 

Yes. Not sure where to go from there. If we were to believe everything in the press, we'd have signed another 50 players by now. 

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, Bison said:

Again, why would he sign a 7 year deal if that was the case? 

Why would we offer him one if we intended to sell a week later? All with the caveat, of course, that none of us know what we have actually offered a contract or that he has signed one. If we slavishly believe reports, we had a plan that absolutely didn't involve selling him.

Things can change quickly, for clubs and players. His family are Newcastle fans, perhaps they chanced their arms and he liked what he heard, particularly in the context of the club spending big money on two 19 year olds and a 21 year old who play in his usual position.

[Sleeping Dave]

2 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I don't want to lose Lewis Hall, but I think I have to see it from his perspective here. There is no doubt that what has gone on a Chelsea over the last 12 months is just a little crazy. This is different compared to say Mount, as Mount was clearly central to all that craziness and a well established player whose career was already made to some extent.

If you then get an offer from a big club who are clearly going places themselves, you will be closer to the first team in both your favoured position and your back up position lets say. You will be earning more money and have the chance to put down some roots at a football club, rather than being moved around on loans and never really knowing where your future is at Chelsea. Well I think you have to take that chance.

So whilst I don't want him to leave. I think it's too good an opportunity for him to not leave. I don't see this as he does not want to be here , or he is not prepared to fight for his place here.  It is a simple one in my mind, its a great opportunity that offers him more football,  more money, and a more stable environment for him to develop his career.

I would expect we will have either a buy back clause or significant sell on clause. Though its hard to accept, sometimes the right deal suits all parties. That's how I see this situation here and I wish him all the best .

And that my friend is exactly what scares me. A CL club who ended up with 27 points more than us last season can offer that to our biggest academy prospect while we can't. 

Was it really necessary to spend £20m on Ugochukwu? We have bought so many players and all of them won't come good. How come we don't look to our most promising academy players before going out buying players we may not even need? In terms of Cucurella, Poch should have made it clear he wasn't part of the first team to ensure that his agent is also doing some work to try to shift him. 

[xceleryx]

51 minutes ago, Floyd25 said:

I don’t think Hall sees himself as a left back, but I think he could end up playing left wing actually. I’m not sure about Maatsen demonstrating capability at the left back role for us, I rate him but Poch doesn’t see him as a left back.

I’m not sure about Santos or Casadei or even Chuckwuemeka all being better than Hall to be honest, two of those three haven’t played for us yet and I’m not sure Chukwuemeka has a higher ceiling than Hall. 
 

Fully agree that it won’t affect us in the short term and I hope it wont come back to bite us. Anyway that’s my two cents, he’s going and that’s that. 

Not suggesting Hall see's himself as a left-back, more that a portion of the supporter base are pigeoning him into that role within the current squad. As for Maatsen, I was more referring to his time at Burnley last season than here. The sense so far is that he'll play a big higher up field under Poch should he remain.

It's not necessarily all about what each player has done playing for us either, it's an argument that's hard to have unless all players involved get similar opportunities to stake their claim. If I had to rank each of the four players as midfield talent then Hall would be in competition with Chukwuemeka for that 3rd or 4th spot, with Santos and Casadei well out ahead. But again, we need to see Hall actually playing in midfield more, as  the one time he did for us last season he was utterly woeful and out of his depth. 

But yeah, I suppose we'll see how it goes by the end of the window.

[xceleryx]

38 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Since then we’ve bought midfielders to the tune of roughly £200m. So yeah, he’s pushed out and honestly who can blame him if he says fuck it?

I’m at loss how he was used so little during pre-season. 

And where would you play him, Dave? 

As a midfielder he's yet to demonstrate the capacities at senior level and has far better, both in term of quality and suitability ahead of him. Do you see Hall as capable in a pivot? I certainly don't, his game lends itself more towards being an #8 or more of that LCM in a midfield three  - which we don't use. 

As a fullback he's not looked comfortable in the brief time spent there, and again there's more suitable options ahead of him that were here before Hall was even a thought. 

His best football has come playing as a WB in a back three, where his strengths in ball progression are more beneficial. As I said in another post, there's a big difference between being a fullback and a wingback as we've seen with Alonso in the past and even someone like TAA at Liverpool.

I just don't get the fuss that's being made.

[Bison]

35 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Since then we’ve bought midfielders to the tune of roughly £200m. So yeah, he’s pushed out and honestly who can blame him if he says fuck it?

I’m at loss how he was used so little during pre-season. 

I am definitely looking at Pochettino funny in all of this. 

9 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Why would we offer him one if we intended to sell a week later? All with the caveat, of course, that none of us know what we have actually offered a contract or that he has signed one. If we slavishly believe reports, we had a plan that absolutely didn't involve selling him.

Things can change quickly, for clubs and players. His family are Newcastle fans, perhaps they chanced their arms and he liked what he heard, particularly in the context of the club spending big money on two 19 year olds and a 21 year old who play in his usual position.

Things can and do change quickly but signing a 7 year deal to then being asked to be sold in the same week just doesn't sound plausible. 

1 minute ago, xceleryx said:

Not suggesting Hall see's himself as a left-back, more that a portion of the supporter base are pigeoning him into that role within the current squad. As for Maatsen, I was more referring to his time at Burnley last season than here. The sense so far is that he'll play a big higher up field under Poch should he remain.

It's not necessarily all about what each player has done playing for us either, it's an argument that's hard to have unless all players involved get similar opportunities to stake their claim. If I had to rank each of the four players as midfield talent then Hall would be in competition with Chukwuemeka for that 3rd or 4th spot, with Santos and Casadei well out ahead. But again, we need to see Hall actually playing in midfield more, as  the one time he did for us last season he was utterly woeful and out of his depth. 

But yeah, I suppose we'll see how it goes by the end of the window.

Casadei or Santos being ahead of Hall is hilarious. Casadei in particular who looks like a gangly mess with zero awareness or technical ability. Hall is comfortably better than both.

I absolutely get it though. The directors are here to sign 20 nobodies because furthering the careers of Cobham kids does nothing for Winstanley or Lawrence as they can't claim the credit. 

[kev61]

1 hour ago, Floyd25 said:

I don’t think Hall sees himself as a left back, 

He could see himself as julius caesar but he needs to knuckle down to the club that employs him.

[xceleryx]

9 minutes ago, Bison said:

Casadei or Santos being ahead of Hall is hilarious. Casadei in particular who looks like a gangly mess with zero awareness or technical ability. Hall is comfortably better than both.

I absolutely get it though. The directors are here to sign 20 nobodies because furthering the careers of Cobham kids does nothing for Winstanley or Lawrence as they can't claim the credit. 

Both Casadei and Santos have demonstrated more across the board as midfielders than Hall, it's not unreasonable to think both are better talents in this area.

I mean Casadei has been hotly touted for years now, was stellar at the U/20 World Cup, and was one of Readings best players last season after joining in January. He's also trained with the senior Italian NT. Santos was playing first team football for Vasco prior to joining us, was exceptional at the U/20 South American Championship, then earned a senior Brazilian cap in a subsequent friendly. 

Hall has one abysmal senior appearance for us in midfield, then some good games playing as a wingback, a position that's now defunct in Poch's 4231. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by xceleryx
spelling correction

[Morgs]

9 hours ago, Ham said:

I get the Cucurella thing but your Chilwell obsession is just odd. 

Yeah that's one of the fashionable takes you see sometimes that I really don't get.

How anyone sees Ben Chillwell as anything other than a world class left back / left wing back and one of our finest players is beyond me. 

Like, how do you watch him and see a totally different player? 

[Morgs]

8 hours ago, Ham said:

 

I'm guessing when we bought Caicedo AND Lavia.  CM path blocked for years. 

This. 

[ROTG]

5 minutes ago, Morgs said:

This. 

What tosh.

top teams evolve season after season hence the need to sell and recruit annually