Transfer Talk Topic

[xceleryx]

4 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Interesting discussion on elite now vs then. Personally I do not burly that theory… Well, probably not in the same way as some of you mean to express it. 

In the past, there would be a much wider variation between the players. Since basically 90% of all elite (read players playing in the big leagues) have gone through the same sort of education, with the same type of blueprint, the variation becomes smaller. Hence, the top players are perceived as being less dominant, not because they are worse but because the general level is higher. We have simply raised the lower threshold. 

Players are also much better tactically today and most have fantastic engines. The game today is more about having a team properly gelled into a style and players who got together than individual quality. There are a few exceptions like Messi, Ronaldo in the last two decades and likely players like Haaland, Mbappe and Bellingham in the present. Personally I think the heydays of football was the 90’s and 00’s. Since 2010 the characters in world football are much more bland. Zlatan Ibrahimovic was one of the last lads of the old school era. Can anyone imagine Hristo Stoichkov or Romario being able to be who they were today? Not a chance. 

Players are better athletes in this day and age, but in by gone years players had more individuality about them which created excitement and a level of unpredictability. 

I think Wenger actually came out recently and spoke about how there's less park football or grass roots level just playing for the fun and enjoyment, now days there's greater emphasis on winning and being coached to do things in a specific manner. As you also expressed, a lot of players go through the same education of "how football should be played". In short it's stripped the individualism that we used to once see in more abundance. 

Brazil is one of the few nations that still encourage flair at a young age and don't try and really shackle their players. 

[kev61]

12 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

Yes, I believe that he is.

Not by me, you weren't.

Sure there is/are. Just don't expect me to name them!

I don't think there is.Since poch took over I don't see any change.

The likes of Mudryk  and more importantly Jackson are losing it...why?.

I've said before Poch is on a road that will get him sacked.

Bet against me folk.I welcome opposition.

[Michael Tucker]

5 minutes ago, kev61 said:

I don't think there is.

Asked and answered then.

[kev61]

18 hours ago, Sciatika said:

Clowns perform there

You don't need a clown to perform in a big top.There is Stamford bridge that they will get well paid and never have to work again.

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

Christensen  is as good

only in a back 5 in the PL, or a back 4 in a slower more technical leagues, was found out to many times in a back 4 in the PL with him usually feigning an injury when he dropped a bollock

Edited September 9, 2023 by ROTG

[kev61]

9 minutes ago, ROTG said:

only in a back 5 in the PL, or a back 4 in a slower more technical leagues, was found out to many times in a back 4 in the PL with him usually feigning an injury when he dropped a bollock

What sort of a post is that?.

Are you insane?....probably not which is all the more worrying.

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

What sort of a post is that?.

Are you insane?....probably not which is all the more worrying.

Now Now my little old cyber leprechaun  - Stick and stones all that stuff

You defiantly need to pass around those Jamaican herbal cigarettes you smoke with the marshmallow people, if you honestly believe Christensen was the dogs bollocks at Chelsea.

Toodles

[kev61]

10 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Now Now my little old cyber leprechaun  - Stick and stones all that stuff

You defiantly need to pass around those Jamaican herbal cigarettes you smoke with the marshmallow people, if you honestly believe Christensen was the dogs bollocks at Chelsea.

Toodles

You'r a funny chap.mad as a hatter but I like that -  more power to your elbow.

[Michael Tucker]

 

19 minutes ago, ROTG said:

if you honestly believe Christensen was the dogs bollocks at Chelsea.

He didn't say that he was from what I can see.

19 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Toodles

And I really wish that you'd stop this nonsense too. It's predictable, childish, and very boring.

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

He didn't say that he was from what I can see.

Mr Kev61 reference Christensen being on the same level as Dick Van Dyke at Liverpool. Which I am sorry to say in a not the case regardless of my dislike of Liverpool players

[Sciatika]

Christensen was not at Van Dyke's level when the former was with us.  However, I think Christensen is on the upward slope of his career, and VVD is distinctly the other way. Christensen has or will overtake VVD. I don't think the latter has been as good since his injury, and at 32, he seems to be slowing down. I would say he has lost a yard, as you might expect. Increasingly, he relies on his strength, often operating at the margins of the rules, more often than not getting away with it. He is also often trying to back up his teammates at the cost of his own position, though whether that is a consequence of the players around him is questionable. The problem I had with Christensen early in his career is that he lacked the physicality needed in the Prem, although that improved over the latter part of his career with us. His ability to read the game and be "in the right place" is almost at the level of JT, in my opinion.

[boratsbrother]

18 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

I honestly think Caicedo will turn out to be an unbelievable signing, as long as we can get the team playing around him.
Think how valuable Kante was for us (also called "water carrying" by Tuchel).

 

Caicedo might we'll go on to do a decent or even very good job for us but that's not the point.

If we, or other clubs, are now paying enormous fees for the likes of a Caicedo, what on earth will be the asking price if another Maradona or Messi emerges? These kind of fees are just very bad economics for football as a sport/industry .

[Ham]

34 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Caicedo might we'll go on to do a decent or even very good job for us but that's not the point.

If we, or other clubs, are now paying enormous fees for the likes of a Caicedo, what on earth will be the asking price if another Maradona or Messi emerges? These kind of fees are just very bad economics for football as a sport/industry .

We might have already bought the next Maradona or Messi. 

Isn't that the new model?

[Mark Kelly]

Are there two Christensen's then? 

I don't recognise this behemoth of defending that everyone is eulogising. 

The one who played for us was as wet as an April fortnight in Margate. 

 

[Max Fowler]

10 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Players are better athletes in this day and age, but in by gone years players had more individuality about them which created excitement and a level of unpredictability. 

I think Wenger actually came out recently and spoke about how there's less park football or grass roots level just playing for the fun and enjoyment, now days there's greater emphasis on winning and being coached to do things in a specific manner. As you also expressed, a lot of players go through the same education of "how football should be played". In short it's stripped the individualism that we used to once see in more abundance. 

Brazil is one of the few nations that still encourage flair at a young age and don't try and really shackle their players. 

I just think there's less characters because everyone's addicted to their phones.

New generations are softer even if they are better tactically and even technically.

Leads to players like Mudryk who can't handle the pressure of the big occasion.

While South Americans who genuinely grew up in the streets still escape some of that.

[Max Fowler]

2 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

Caicedo might we'll go on to do a decent or even very good job for us but that's not the point.

If we, or other clubs, are now paying enormous fees for the likes of a Caicedo, what on earth will be the asking price if another Maradona or Messi emerges? These kind of fees are just very bad economics for football as a sport/industry .

That's a different question.

Personally I don't see 115 million for Caicedo as that much more egregious than say 100 million for Grealish 3 years go.

Also seems like fees are more and more dictated by age and especially years remaining on contracts, rather than actually value of player.

Example - Salah is currently "on value" at 150-200 million - in a year he make go for 100 and that is an undervaluation but because he only has 1 year left on his contract.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Max Fowler]

11 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I was looking it up earlier but didn't share to keep things brief (unheard of, I know lol), but...

Looking at the top 15 highest transfer fees paid each year since 2018/19, so 90 transfers accumulatively in that span of time, only 29 of the signings made were 25 years of age or older. With the number gradually getting less as the seasons went on, and it also includes some of the big Saudi purchases like Neymar. 

Money is seriously being plowed into younger players and less so into established ones, whether it's because there isn't the established quality out there to go around, or other reasons such as clubs feeling its more beneficial investing that level of money into potential who knows. 

You go back 20 years and you'd have a hard time not seeing a top side with a handful truly elite players, if not a full eleven.

 

I mean honestly the standard of current say 25-29 year olds is so bad - that is insane to think about.

Think of the best current outfield players in that bracket - the best I can come up with is Rodri / Bernardo Silva.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Max Fowler

[ROTG]

28 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Example - Salah is currently "on value" at 150-200 million - in a year he make go for 100 and that is an undervaluation but because he only has 1 year left on his contract.

On the Saudi league will pay that kind of money for Salah next summer. No European team will pay that because not just the length of his contract also because of his wages. 

Our club has a proven goal scorer and because of his stupid wages were unable to give him away let alone get a decent fee for him.  

[Ham]

52 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

That's a different question.

Personally I don't see 115 million for Caicedo as that much more egregious than say 100 million for Grealish 3 years go.

Also seems like fees are more and more dictated by age and especially years remaining on contracts, rather than actually value of player.

Example - Salah is currently "on value" at 150-200 million - in a year he make go for 100 and that is an undervaluation but because he only has 1 year left on his contract.

He's only worth that sort of money to Saudi clubs in his capacity as the most high profile Muslim player in the world.

His transfer value in Europe would be £30m ish. He's on the down slope already.  

[boratsbrother]

13 minutes ago, Ham said:

He's only worth that sort of money to Saudi clubs in his capacity as the most high profile Muslim player in the world.

His transfer value in Europe would be £30m ish. He's on the down slope already.  

Salah is past his peak but he's still one of the world's top strikers. He's blessed with elite level technical ability and a quick football brain so he'll   be able to adapt his game a bit and stay around the top level of strikers for a good few years to come. 

[Max Fowler]

31 minutes ago, Ham said:

He's only worth that sort of money to Saudi clubs in his capacity as the most high profile Muslim player in the world.

His transfer value in Europe would be £30m ish. He's on the down slope already.  

Oh come on. He’s still one of the best three premier league players

[Sleeping Dave]

8 hours ago, Sciatika said:

Christensen was not at Van Dyke's level when the former was with us.  However, I think Christensen is on the upward slope of his career, and VVD is distinctly the other way. Christensen has or will overtake VVD. I don't think the latter has been as good since his injury, and at 32, he seems to be slowing down. I would say he has lost a yard, as you might expect. Increasingly, he relies on his strength, often operating at the margins of the rules, more often than not getting away with it. He is also often trying to back up his teammates at the cost of his own position, though whether that is a consequence of the players around him is questionable. The problem I had with Christensen early in his career is that he lacked the physicality needed in the Prem, although that improved over the latter part of his career with us. His ability to read the game and be "in the right place" is almost at the level of JT, in my opinion.

 Put Christensen in the PL and he’ll go back to dodging games because he can’t stomach it. One of the most overrated defenders we’ve ever had. 

He’s perfect for Barcelona. But in any League where he’ll be under pressure he’ll fold. Mental strength of a toddler. It’s amazing what absence can do to a players ability. 

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, boratsbrother said:

Salah is past his peak but he's still one of the world's top strikers. He's blessed with elite level technical ability and a quick football brain so he'll   be able to adapt his game a bit and stay around the top level of strikers for a good few years to come. 

So why did he not show that intelligence at Chelsea?

[chara]

12 minutes ago, ROTG said:

So why did he not show that intelligence at Chelsea?

Too early in his development and somewhat pigeon holed by the coach plus a far deeper and stronger squad than today!...will always remember him working his socks off on Demba Ba Day!

[boratsbrother]

2 hours ago, chara said:

Too early in his development and somewhat pigeon holed by the coach plus a far deeper and stronger squad than today!...

Exactly!

Just looked at his stats at Chelsea. 13/14 played 10 with 4 as sub and scored 2 goals. 14/15 played 3 as sub then sold. Hardly terrible stats and certainly not ones to not rate a young forward starting his career at a big club.

Chelsea players didn't want him to leave because they saw him tearing it up on the training ground and knew what a talent he was. There's also a YouTube highlights video of him at Chelsea which shows very clearly he was an immense talent just waiting fo fully get going as a player.

A Wenger, Pep or Klopp type manager would have nurtured him along, whereas Jose was always about the here and now.