Transfer Talk Topic

[Ham]

4 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

Seen this a few times and not had the energy to respond, but just the once and for posterity. It's complete bollocks and reflects really badly on anyone who has seen it said elsewhere and unthinkingly repeated it.

Sanchez played every single minute of Brighton's PL campaign last year until 4th March. Of the 15 games he was not picked to start in, he was injured for 5. For the remaining 10, he was on the bench, so clearly not 3rd choice. Brighton signed a new keeper this summer to replace him, and that keeper has started the last 2 games after De Zerbi spoke in press conferences about easing them in after joining. That keeper, the one who replaced Sanchez, is their 1st choice. He was boight to replace the outgoing number 1 keeper. We can never know for sure what happens behind closed doors, but the noise was Sanchez and De Zerbi fell out on a personal level.

Sanchez was, with the exception of about 2 months, Brighton's automatic starter in goal. An argument he was 2nd choice is hard to really get going, but one he was 3rd is simply preposterous. It's just something anyone who wants to be unrelentingly negative about everything happening at the club will wheel out.

Whether or not Sanchez is good enough is, of course, a different matter. 

100%

Incidentally, I don't think there has even been a time in the history of CFCNET or son of CFCNET where I've disagreed so vehemently with so many opinions all at once as right now.

It's so unnecessarily depressing on here right now. The negativity is so far out of whack I'm genuinely embarrassed for us as a fan base.

There's no middle ground.  

Genuinely tired of this nonsense. 

[Dwmh]

6 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I'm hearing that Gallagher and Chalobah are on the selling pile and there are crazy rumours from that Sam guy who leaks the line ups that Cucurella and Maatsen are going to be left out of the squad because they didn't do what the club wanted in the transfer window and will again be sold in January. We wanted Maatsen to sign an extension and he has no intention of doing so. 

Of the youth players who I thought really had proved themselves as Chelsea standard I'd go James, Mount, Huth, Gallagher, Chalobah and not much else.  (Colvill I'm giving more time to judge but I like what I see enormously).
After that Tammy nearly got there.

But it is post window so we know there is no proper transfer sources but plenty of pressure for stories - that makes it all sound like pure speculation to me.  Possibly linked to a little agent mischief.

33 minutes ago, Ham said:

100%

Incidentally, I don't think there has even been a time in the history of CFCNET or son of CFCNET where I've disagreed so vehemently with so many opinions all at once as right now.

It's so unnecessarily depressing on here right now. The negativity is so far out of whack I'm genuinely embarrassed for us as a fan base.

There's no middle ground.  

Genuinely tired of this nonsense. 

Well I am just reading a bit now, but all bad times for CFC were dreadful times on here.
The moaners feel it is their privilege to get back by posting on here, the better judges feel no interest to stand up for logic, and the mods (certainly blameless) are caught between promoting post numbers and removing the moaners.

2015/16 was awful.  So was 07/08 when JM disappointed, resigned/quit, and Grant took over.  The abuse for many, and especially Grant was awful - even though there was a hard core of the  better judges in those days  (when it was the Intelligent Forum not the Conviviality Forum).

Mood here is always going to be a highly geared derivative of mood at club.
Mood at club I don't think has been worse since we were in Division 2  last relegated to Div 2 (once there it was brilliant)

 

The issue is the club

[chara]

54 minutes ago, Ham said:

 

Incidentally, I don't think there has even been a time in the history of CFCNET or son of CFCNET where I've disagreed so vehemently with so many opinions all at once as right now.

It's so unnecessarily depressing on here right now. The negativity is so far out of whack I'm genuinely embarrassed for us as a fan base.

There's no middle ground.  

Genuinely tired of this nonsense. 

Droy is close and with reservations I agree with his post,

If we look at the Chelsea "istory"  in our insular Chelsea Football World (As opposed to the Real World and it's challenges..no comparison) we as a fan base have been through,,and still are in ... a time of major trauma...from the lofty peak of the Europe triumph progressing through the vicious attempt to demolish our Club by HMG for non Football Political reasons much supported by mindless so called football fans (ask not for whom the bell tolls!) self seeking politicos and the media...a forced change of ownership and coach,,plus the unnecessary overload of GP's malfunctioning time...complete (justified) turn over in squad personnel,,new coach and a deep uncertainty amongst the faithful as to where the Club is going in every facet of it's existence it's no wonder that so many voices appear to be in disharmony,Droy makes a very good point about the calmer voices trying to keep involved but also trying to stay out of extreme views.

The injury issues get magnified,,,hard though that can be! and the so short time the present squad has had to get "together" doesn't help on field results'

The Media with it's gleeful "Chelsea revelations" is as big a contributing factor in the disharmony evident every day....how anyone can print that players are considered non playing assets by the hierarchy unless they are privy to all meetings etc it is hard to accept...what someone thinks may be doesn't make it gospel.

This too shall pass but the worry is when.

[boratsbrother]

The club and it's fans have been through a torrid time, so it would be very strange for  fans to be positive during such a time.

Taking that into consideration,  I honestly think the posters have been reasonable with their comments, giving praise where it's due - quickly moving on a lot of those players who needed to go. significantly reducing the wage bill. Investing in youth - all of those  have been praised by most fans. Also, most fans seem to be realistic about where we are and that it's going to take time to get back to where we want to be.

The criticisms have been largely justified - buying too many players, especially too many young, defensive players and at the price of potentially losing our HG young players to cover the fees. Not addressing the chronic lack of creativity and passing up on the dirt cheap Madison. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by boratsbrother

[xceleryx]

10 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Well I wouldn't be surprised to see us move to a 4-3-3 with Lavia as the DM once he is fit.

That window becomes increasingly less huge when our failings are revealed and its obvious where we should have ploughed more of our money. 

I am less convinced than you that the club rationally discovered there were few decent attacking players on the market. I believe as they have done so far, they failed to identify the needs of the squad and failed to prioritise the present over the future.

Actually, I don't think they care too much if Poch gets sacked because of it. He will fall because they can say they backed him with hundreds of millions even if they were badly spent.

433 probably hinges more on Nkunku than anyone else and where he's ultimately chosen to play, we could in theory go 433 now for example and use Caicedo at DM, with Enzo and Gallagher just ahead.

Beg to differ I suppose. This is a rebuilding project and it's far easier, and cheaper, to do that while investing in young upcoming talent to create foundations around than it is to try and deck the side out with established talent at higher price points, and with greater expectation to immediately hit the ground running. 

With foundations in place it's then a lot simpler to then add one or two complimentary pieces that help address specific needs and elevate the performance level. 

We'll see what happens though. Not going to get drawn in on Poch and his future, as it's far too early to be speaking on that. All I can say is that he's been hired for a specific reason - his development of young players. He's a good manager, and even if he doesn't end up being the one who leads us to win trophies he can certainly establish the foundations of a side that can. Patience is key though, and with the state of our fan base at times that's not something we like to provide. I guess that's entitlement for you having been spoiled  for a large portion of the previous 20 years. 

[kev61]

21 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

 They don't make them like that anymore!

Thank god.Apart from Burt Lancaster and Kevin Costner  the most overrated actor in the history of cinema and a racist to boot.

'Get off your horse and drink your milk'.....my ass!.

Edited September 13, 2023 by kev61

[ROTG]

9 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

Sanchez was, with the exception of about 2 months, Brighton's automatic starter in goal. An argument he was 2nd choice is hard to really get going, but one he was 3rd is simply preposterous. It's just something anyone who wants to be unrelentingly negative about everything happening at the club will wheel out.

Whether or not Sanchez is good enough is, of course, a different matter. 

So what was the recruitment of Sanchez for? Competition for Kepa, the No1 spot?

 

If Sanchez was purchased as a number two then maybe his signing could be deemed ok, however back to your point if he was Brighton's No1 why would he come to Chelsea as a number two?

 

The bottom line  is, Sanchez is the club's No1 now, there is no way he is an upgrade on Kepa.  Which is p1ss poor management in letting Kepa in the first Place. On top of that the club then goes and buys another cheap keeper from the MSL, Instead of buying or loaning an experienced keeper for this season. 

 

Talking of MSL keepers, what happened to the one we brought last season?

 

[ROTG]

5 hours ago, Ham said:

100%

Incidentally, I don't think there has even been a time in the history of CFCNET or son of CFCNET where I've disagreed so vehemently with so many opinions all at once as right now.

It's so unnecessarily depressing on here right now. The negativity is so far out of whack I'm genuinely embarrassed for us as a fan base.

There's no middle ground.  

Genuinely tired of this nonsense. 

So everything on this forum needed to be done with rose tinted glasses. 

That what I enjoy about this forum, people can put their views across without being vilified. 

Your right there is no middle ground because the club will be successful again or another Everton, not forgetting the new owners only committed for 10 years "according to the media"

 

[xceleryx]

10 hours ago, Willian Dollar Baby said:

If Enzo, Caicedo and Lavia are the intended first choice then thats 4-3-3 and Chuk, Casadai, Gallagher and  the rest are all in competition. Again that's 8 players for three positions, 9 if Nkunku plays at 10 as expected. It's overkill and we've ended up again with a massive squad which will leave a number of players unhappy. We actually did a great job trimming the squad this summer before bloating it again in areas that were not necessary. 

The talent hoarding strategy doesn't work if the players you buy can't get minutes. If you know you're locking up three loan spots to dead wood then don't buy so many players. Why are we doing Real the courtesy of loaning our GK when they are desperate? Make them pay up. What are we going to do when Kepa returns in 12 months and we've then got three keepers on the books? 

Another example:

Stock piling talent has left us with a bloated squad and now potentially letting a great young player rot in the reserves. This could easily happen with Gallagher next. Players value will deteriorate quickly when they are not playing and other clubs know that we are desperate to sell. 

The amount of money we've spent on South American teenagers could have been used on first team players over the age of 21 who can actually be relied upon. We've tried this method before and the Piazon type signings are a lottery in reality.

Selling premier league ready HG players to facilitate spending a fortune on kids who are unlikely to play for the club is insanity. 

You're basing your entire argument on an "if". There's been no suggestion that we'll play 4-3-3. I could turn around and say "If we play a narrow christmas tree system then we're going to need those midfield numbers for extra midfield spots". I've no basis for that claim, much like you with yours. It's a hypothetical and there's really no point discussing such a thing for obvious reasons. 

"Talent hoarding" can certainly work depending on the end result desired. I've addressed this before but a lot of the talent we've picked up are in that sort of £20m price range with low wages. Now, maybe we strike lucky on a couple and they end up being first team players for us moving forward. Maybe some just don't need up as good as we need. Those one or two players that end up good enough will have been picked up for an absolute steal, and will have no double vastly increased in value. Those not good enough will have also likely increased in value purely because of the way football inflation is. Someone like Santos for example, if he was sold tomorrow would fetch a fee beyond the £18m we originally paid. Similar could likely be done already with players like Casadei and Chukwuemeka also. As long as these types of players are purchased at a more manageable price point they'll likely generate profits if sold down the line.

Now it's obviously important for young players to play to maximise their development, some will and are getting that opportunity here, others will do so out on loan. We got blindsided a little with Kepa, because that only materialised because of Courtios injury. We could have of course said no, but the player wanted to leave and a good portion of the fan base have been wanting Kepa out for years, we also save a year of his massive wages. Lukaku's situation hasn't helped either, a nice little gift from the previous regime if you will. A loan was always going to be the likely solution purely because of what he earns and such little interest. Then Ziyech drew little himself for a full on sale, so a loan and clearing wages was the next best thing. If there's no interest in these players for permanent moves then loaning them out is the next best alternative, unless you'd rather keep them here and have that disruption?

Re Chalobah. It's a lot of spilt milk over nothing IMO. Don't get me wrong I like Chalobah, sung his praises early in the piece when he played under Tuchel, but let's not pretend he's anything overly special either. He's certainly not kicked on since debuting, he's definitely not starting calibre, and analysing him as a player there's not a whole lot he does that stands out. He's god awful in the air, has lapses in concentration and thus prone to mistakes and silly fouls, and doesn't really provide a whole lot that impacts general play. He also spends his fair amount of time out injured. If we're looking at our defensive options he's certainly at the bottom end of the pecking order so I don't necessarily see the issue with trying to move him on - academy lad or otherwise, it changes none of the above. 

Also the headline of the tweet is a little misleading to say the least, as is the article itself, but that's the media these days. Gotta generate that shock value for clicks. 

[kev61]

5 hours ago, Ham said:

100%

 

It's so unnecessarily depressing on here right now. The negativity is so far out of whack I'm genuinely embarrassed for us as a fan base.

There's no middle ground.  

Genuinely tired of this nonsense. 

There is "middle ground" it's called hope.Optimism is a step too far for now.

I fully sympathise with fans that are not 'optimistic'.We look like a circus right now from(the big) top to bottom.

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by kev61

[kev61]

3 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

The club and it's fans have been through a torrid time, so it would be very strange for  fans to be positive during such a time.

Taking that into consideration,  I honestly think the posters have been reasonable with their comments, giving praise where it's due - quickly moving on a lot of those players who needed to go. significantly reducing the wage bill. Investing in youth - all of those  have been praised by most fans. Also, most fans seem to be realistic about where we are and that it's going to take time to get back to where we want to be.

The criticisms have been largely justified - buying too many players, especially too many young, defensive players and at the price of potentially losing our HG young players to cover the fees. Not addressing the chronic lack of creativity and passing up on the dirt cheap Madison. 

 

 

 

 

 

100%,spot on,nail on the head,couldn't agree more,post of the week,my thoughts exactly....have I missed anything?  - oh and 👍

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

You're basing your entire argument on an "if". There's been no suggestion that we'll play 4-3-3. I could turn around and say "If we play a narrow christmas tree system then we're going to need those midfield numbers for extra midfield spots". I've no basis for that claim, much like you with yours. It's a hypothetical and there's really no point discussing such a thing for obvious reasons. 

"Talent hoarding" can certainly work depending on the end result desired. I've addressed this before but a lot of the talent we've picked up are in that sort of £20m price range with low wages. Now, maybe we strike lucky on a couple and they end up being first team players for us moving forward. Maybe some just don't need up as good as we need. Those one or two players that end up good enough will have been picked up for an absolute steal, and will have no double vastly increased in value. Those not good enough will have also likely increased in value purely because of the way football inflation is. Someone like Santos for example, if he was sold tomorrow would fetch a fee beyond the £18m we originally paid. Similar could likely be done already with players like Casadei and Chukwuemeka also. As long as these types of players are purchased at a more manageable price point they'll likely generate profits if sold down the line.

Now it's obviously important for young players to play to maximise their development, some will and are getting that opportunity here, others will do so out on loan. We got blindsided a little with Kepa, because that only materialised because of Courtios injury. We could have of course said no, but the player wanted to leave and a good portion of the fan base have been wanting Kepa out for years, we also save a year of his massive wages. Lukaku's situation hasn't helped either, a nice little gift from the previous regime if you will. A loan was always going to be the likely solution purely because of what he earns and such little interest. Then Ziyech drew little himself for a full on sale, so a loan and clearing wages was the next best thing. If there's no interest in these players for permanent moves then loaning them out is the next best alternative, unless you'd rather keep them here and have that disruption?

Re Chalobah. It's a lot of spilt milk over nothing IMO. Don't get me wrong I like Chalobah, sung his praises early in the piece when he played under Tuchel, but let's not pretend he's anything overly special either. He's certainly not kicked on since debuting, he's definitely not starting calibre, and analysing him as a player there's not a whole lot he does that stands out. He's god awful in the air, has lapses in concentration and thus prone to mistakes and silly fouls, and doesn't really provide a whole lot that impacts general play. He also spends his fair amount of time out injured. If we're looking at our defensive options he's certainly at the bottom end of the pecking order so I don't necessarily see the issue with trying to move him on - academy lad or otherwise, it changes none of the above. 

Also the headline of the tweet is a little misleading to say the least, as is the article itself, but that's the media these days. Gotta generate that shock value for clicks. 

Question to you Prof. Celery - can you name another top football club in history who have adopted our strategy of spending a vast majority of money in young players, eventually developing to be a dominant force in football in five years time?

[Max Fowler]

 

 

 

[Max Fowler]

Here's another question for those who are more positive about our transfer window - (Ham, Celery etc.)

Where would be an acceptable / expected / overachieving league finish in your eyes that would justify that the owners have done a good job this summer? Obviously we also have January still to judge as well.

But given you have more patience with the project - what would you be happy with 5th? 8th? 10th?

 

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Question to you Prof. Celery - can you name another top football club in history who have adopted our strategy of spending a vast majority of money in young players, eventually developing to be a dominant force in football in five years time?

Not in the same manner we've done it, no. We're an extreme example though to be fair. Arsenal adopted a youth policy when they rebuilt under Wenger, and again more recently with Arteta. Dortmund have gone down a youth pathway themselves in more recent years, falling just short of the Bundesliga title last season. Burnley have probably been one of the other more aggressive sides to do it after their relegation. From memory the Leeds team around the 00/01 season or so was also pretty young as well. I'm sure there's more examples, but again nothing to the degree we have.

[Chelsea_Matt]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Here's another question for those who are more positive about our transfer window - (Ham, Celery etc.)

Where would be an acceptable / expected / overachieving league finish in your eyes that would justify that the owners have done a good job this summer? Obviously we also have January still to judge as well.

But given you have more patience with the project - what would you be happy with 5th? 8th? 10th?

 

I would be happy with 10th IF there were real signs of genuine improvement and a springboard for top 4 next season.

The injuries are a real concern for me, though. A real concern.

[xceleryx]

3 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

 

 

No shit it's not built to win, it's been built to develop and create a foundation that we can then use as a platform to win in a few years time. It's not as if the sides we had assembled in prior years were built to win either, we've been so far off the pace domestically something had to be done. Buying 10x £100m players for immediate results and then crossing our fingers it doesn't implode really leave us royally fucked wasn't the way forward either. 

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Here's another question for those who are more positive about our transfer window - (Ham, Celery etc.)

Where would be an acceptable / expected / overachieving league finish in your eyes that would justify that the owners have done a good job this summer? Obviously we also have January still to judge as well.

But given you have more patience with the project - what would you be happy with 5th? 8th? 10th?

I'd be content with anything around that 4th to 8th spot. 

Obviously with injuries to some key players that may be closer to 8th than 4th, but right now it's hard to really make a definitive decision when we've not been able to play our strongest team. 

For me seeing improvement in the structure of how we play is the more intriguing aspect. We're going to have teething issues, but if we look a more organised team, move the ball around better, create chances, etc then that's a positive step for in itself. As has been the case in recent seasons, our finishing will largely define how we ultimately fair. 

[ROTG]

38 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

I'd be content with anything around that 4th to 8th spot. 

Obviously with injuries to some key players that may be closer to 8th than 4th, but right now it's hard to really make a definitive decision when we've not been able to play our strongest team. 

For me seeing improvement in the structure of how we play is the more intriguing aspect. We're going to have teething issues, but if we look a more organised team, move the ball around better, create chances, etc then that's a positive step for in itself. As has been the case in recent seasons, our finishing will largely define how we ultimately fair. 

Bit of a dumb question,

How long do you think the likes of Enzo "who you say is top draw" will hang around on a project. If we are 8th this season which is another season of no European football Europe again. On top of that the club has missed out on European funds and television revenue and not forgetting, no bonuses for the NKOTB. Then in the summer Mr or Mrs (PC Correct) European club rocks up in the summer offering CL football, better wages, lifestyle etc. 

Do you think Me Enzo or whoever is going to stick around on project Chelsea. In fact Mr Enzo & Mr Caceido are fine examples of club loyalty

Alan Hansen - You don't win anything with kids

[Thiago97]

3 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Here's another question for those who are more positive about our transfer window - (Ham, Celery etc.)

Where would be an acceptable / expected / overachieving league finish in your eyes that would justify that the owners have done a good job this summer? Obviously we also have January still to judge as well.

But given you have more patience with the project - what would you be happy with 5th? 8th? 10th?

 

I think you are unfairly attempting to divide camps here between fans who are angry, frustrated and concerned - The Anti's if you like - To be compared with the camp you have erected for the positives, optimists and in your view, probably naïve.

This comes back to what myself, and Ham more recently has been saying about the middle ground. It's impossible not to have some concerns with how our owners have approached the last 12 months.

The stark reality is it is just way to early to judge anything by. If we are perpetually in a cycle every window of buying and selling players, then I don't see any Chelsea fan being happy about this. We don't know what the future holds here and how this will play out.

The new owners have got a fair bit wrong, but they have also got some things right too (massively reduced wage bill, managed to pull off large important transfers and bring quality to the club). Either way, it is just to early to judge the new players, new manager and the new owners.  I suspect it will be another 12 months from here before we finally start to see a picture of what the future is for the club under this ownership regime.

We have no option but to be patient with it all. However, being patient and seeing how it plays out, is not blind optimism that everything in the garden smells of beautiful flowers right now.

[xceleryx]

17 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Bit of a dumb question,

How long do you think the likes of Enzo "who you say is top draw" will hang around on a project. If we are 8th this season which is another season of no European football Europe again. On top of that the club has missed out on European funds and television revenue and not forgetting, no bonuses for the NKOTB. Then in the summer Mr or Mrs (PC Correct) European club rocks up in the summer offering CL football, better wages, lifestyle etc. 

Do you think Me Enzo or whoever is going to stick around on project Chelsea. In fact Mr Enzo & Mr Caceido are fine examples of club loyalty

Alan Hansen - You don't win anything with kids

You answered your own question really  - all depends on how long we stay out of European competitions. I don't expect any of our big players to be here in 3 or 4 years time if we're still not back in Europe. With that said, there's a big difference between being in Europe and winning trophies. I don't think anyone expects us to be winning anything right here and now, so it's kinda irrelevant really. 

If this group progress as anticipated based on their talent and potential then in 3 or 4 years time they'll not be kids anymore, and we'll hopefully be back in Europe and winning trophies of some description.

[Thiago97]

19 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Bit of a dumb question,

How long do you think the likes of Enzo "who you say is top draw" will hang around on a project. If we are 8th this season which is another season of no European football Europe again. On top of that the club has missed out on European funds and television revenue and not forgetting, no bonuses for the NKOTB. Then in the summer Mr or Mrs (PC Correct) European club rocks up in the summer offering CL football, better wages, lifestyle etc. 

Do you think Me Enzo or whoever is going to stick around on project Chelsea. In fact Mr Enzo & Mr Caceido are fine examples of club loyalty

Alan Hansen - You don't win anything with kids

My answer on this is that they would probably give things 2-3 seasons before they start getting approached by major European clubs and may want to move on.

If that happens. These major European clubs are going to need to some serious transfer budgets, because both are clearly going to be positive assets for the club, and likely our two stand out players. Both of them are also on very long contracts.

I see little to worry about because unless clubs have £150m available to spend, they are unlikely to be going anywhere soon. Their value only goes up at Chelsea on these contracts, unless they stink the place out on the pitch, which is unlikely.

I only see a handful of major European options available, unless they want to find themselves in Saudi league.

[Sciatika]

We all measure success on the basis of the achievement of targets (including those we set ourselves). If the club have told them the aim is to be back in Europe next season, then finishing out of the relevant positions is, undoubtedly, a failure. However, I suspect the club's targets are based on two or three years commensurate with the contracts that are being given. They aren't stupid. They will understand why targets are not being met (if that's the case) and will have direct experience of the contrary factors that have come into play and how they and the club have attempted to mitigate them. Some of that will be their responsibility.

[thevelourfog]

12 hours ago, Ham said:

100%

Incidentally, I don't think there has even been a time in the history of CFCNET or son of CFCNET where I've disagreed so vehemently with so many opinions all at once as right now.

It's so unnecessarily depressing on here right now. The negativity is so far out of whack I'm genuinely embarrassed for us as a fan base.

There's no middle ground.  

Genuinely tired of this nonsense. 

It must be bad, in the space of 5 minutes you liked two of my posts and responded positively to another!

I think Dwmh nails it. The club is a mess, so it follows its supporters would be, too. 

[Mark Kelly]

Personally I feel there have been improvements to the way we look for the forward pass even if we played more conservatively at times. 

You can see what they are trying to do but in my opinion we need to be a bit braver against the ten men behind mob and make them earn their draw / win instead of handing it to them cheaply. 

I'm sure this will come with time and more importantly familiarity.