Transfer Talk Topic

[martin1905]

I don't think it can be underestimated how big a loss Nkunku is.

Not just his goal scoring but the way he links up with the other attackers and creates so many opportunities for others. 

Appreciate it was only pre season but Jackson looked a different player alongside Nkunku and many people thought we had found the solution to our striker problems.

There's a few people on here that  know what he's all about and every single one of them rates him incredibly highly, not just me and my usual, almost James Prescott, over the top hype about all our singings.

Again, it was only pre season but we were a completely different beast with him in the set up. I don't think it can be stated enough how big a loss he is. 

Overall, for Leipzig, he had 70 goals and 56 assists in 172 games.

In 119 league games 47 goals 43 assists.

And in 36 games champions league games  15 goals 6 assists.

He averaged a goal or assist every 91 minutes. Absolute elite levels, even for the Bundesliga, especially for the Bundesliga considering who he played for.

Much of where I think this season has gone wrong is Pochettinos inability to replace him, his idea to go against everything we did in pre season and change the whole system.

Hopefully, now we have Palmer and Madueke available we will see a return to a proper 4231, with players playing in their correct positions and start seeing improvement.

I can't help but look at Tottenham and think they are doing everything we did in pre season and if they lost Madison or Bissouma I find it very hard to believe Postecoglou would not just play someone else there. Obviously there would be a drop off in quality but you don't change everything for one injured player.

We have a good run of fixtures coming up before we play Arsenal, Brentford, Tottenham, City, Newcastle, United.

It's outrageously tough and we've (Pochettino) made it even tougher by messing around so much in our opening 4 games. We have 5 games to get it right beforehand and if we don't by the end of that run he could be gone.

Edited September 14, 2023 by martin1905

[Dwmh]

10 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

The club, or Jose Mourinho?

9 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

Sure, but Jose carried a lot  of weight back then. If he said they had to go, then they went - at least that's the way I remember it.

Well certainly there is a lot of angst against JM for prioritising trophies over players (or at least a lot of angst against JM that needs to find a rationale for it).
Still the guy played Robben for us, Hazard for us, Oscar, kicked out Lampard Cole and Cech for younger players such as Courtois, and the first I ever heard of him was when he played a teenager at CF in a CL final.  So accusing him of refusing to look at young players is not a very convincing rationale.
A better one would be his preference for small, often very small squads, but even there only  in 15/16 did we really suffer for that.

9 hours ago, xceleryx said:

What we're doing isn't inherently different to anything that's not already been done before by other clubs, all we've done is amplify it to another level. It may work, it may not. But going out and spending £1bn on established ready made players doesn't necessarily mean we'd be better or could challenge Man City either, it carries just as much risk of backfiring. Then what, we're left trying to dig our way out with expensive deadweight earning mega money. Not a particularly prosperous position to be in either. 

Rather than jumping the gun, maybe showcasing a bit patience to see how things unfold before buying a one way ticket for the doom and gloom train is a little healthier? Just a thought, 

There is a difference to what we are doing or what Leicester post PL or Brighton or Brentford have done in buying those not quite proven players not ready for a big 4 team aged 19 or 20.
Those 3 clubs always did it in the context of having a team that would avoid relegation.  
We just assume that doesn't apply to us, but lets be honest another 11th place would be the end of our ability to buy the genuine talent, we'd get 8 year contract money grabbers only.

[Mark Kelly]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

Personally I CAN see them getting double figures each. Maybe not this season because of injuries and missing half seasons.

Also, I'm happy with our CB options, even without Silva.  I think we've scouted smart. Colwill is going to be getting a lot of "pre-assists" too with his passing prowess down the left hand side. Mark my words.

As for the midfield, and with the support behind of Caicedo and Lavia, Enzo will get goals and assists.  Carney was a diamond in the rough before we bought him.  Anyone who saw what he did for the England U21s just before we bought him will have seen that.  We just saw a shapshot of his threat before he was injured. He'll be some player for us. Watch this space.

I'll reiterate. I'm really impressed with our work in the last two windows since the transfer/scouting committee took over from TB. 

As Celery says, this squad isn't for this year although at full strength I'd still have us in top 4. 

I think we've seen the end of prime DeBruyne at city and they'll miss Gundogan and Mahrez over a season. 

Man U massively flatter to deceive. They are so unbalanced and in a state of flux with Greenwood , Antony and Sancho. 

Arsenal are a couple of key injuries away from implosion. They can't field the same 11 every game like they did last season with PL, CL and cups.  They'll pick up injuries.

Newcastle over achieved last season. We looked very good against their full strength side in pre-season. 

Liverpool are well away from their best of a few years ago. 

The next few years could be very interesting. 

I do pretty much agree with this plus I love Noni for his fantastic attitude and I think Palmer is a real gem , losing to Forest in such a way reminiscent of last season has knocked many of us out of our stride (me especially) after a solid pre-season. 

I think we'll be fine this year , better the next and so on.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

I don't think it can be underestimated how big a loss Nkunku is.

Not just his goal scoring but the way he links up with the other attackers and creates so many opportunities for others. 

Appreciate it was only pre season but Jackson looked a different player alongside Nkunku and many people thought we had found the solution to our striker problems.

There's a few people on here that  know what he's all about and every single one of them rates him incredibly highly, not just me and my usual, almost James Prescott, over the top hype about all our singings.

Again, it was only pre season but we were a completely different beast with him in the set up. I don't think it can be stated enough how big a loss he is. 

Overall, for Leipzig, he had 70 goals and 56 assists in 172 games.

In 119 league games 47 goals 43 assists.

And in 36 games champions league games  15 goals 6 assists.

He averaged a goal or assist every 91 minutes. Absolute elite levels, even for the Bundesliga, especially for the Bundesliga considering who he played for.

I can't help but look at Tottenham and think they are doing everything we did in pre season and if they lost Madison or Bissouma I find it very hard to believe Postecoglou would not just play someone else there. Obviously there would be a drop off in quality but you don't change everything for one injured player.

Let's not forget Werner had similar and even better numbers before joining us.

However, I do believe Nkunku is the better player and the real deal if we can get him fit.

Here's the thing Martin, and I am not meaning to be unrelentingly negative.

Before signing for Chelsea, Havertz' biggest injuries were 17, 11 and 10 days. Werner's, 11, 10 and 7 days.  Pulisic, 20, 17 and 16 days. Ziyech, 23, 20 and 13 days. I could go on - even pick a more injury-prone Lukaku, 32, 27 and 31 days. 

We have just signed Nkunku whose biggest injuries before he joined were 32, 29, and 83 days. 

Crucially - that 83 day knee injury has recurred on the same knee and he is now out for another 90* days including surgery.

Moral of the story? Should we have not signed Nkunku?

We have seemingly made a big mistake signing W. Fofana given his injury record. IMO we can no longer complain about Reecey getting injured because we should know it's going to happen now, same with Chilwell.

Outside of that, we seem to have genuinely been unlucky with injuries or something is going on at Cobham that needs fixing.

I feel it is a bit rich hearing from Fabrizio Romano, and from our fans apparently:
“… People in the club still believe that Nkunku’s return will make the difference for Chelsea.”

Point being - 

Injury prone or not (and I think it matters that he is), we should not have put all our eggs in the basket of the Nkunku signing. The club thinks that he can be the difference maker? Great. Why not sign a couple more difference makers up front just in case he gets injured?

Why can he make the difference? Because he's a world renowned top player who is not 22 or below with a lot of growing still to do. We could do with a couple more of those to help score goals.

*BTW - if we are mentioning injuries, I think those of us who are looking at Maddison now and thinking "why didn't we sign him?" will be less worried once he gets injured as he does every season. 

At least if we'd signed him and Nkunku we would have spread the risk out a bit...

And finally, let's not forget, injuries were the same excuses used for months under Potter. Until we realised there was something fundamentally wrong.

We had to do better and still win against Forest after West Ham - it's completely unacceptable and anything less than a win against Bournemouth is a disaster. Pochettino knows that better than many of our fans. 

Yes, we may have been unlucky again, but that's why mitigation planning is put in place. The US government disbanded their pandemic taskforce and then low and behold Covid hit.

We have run a similar experiment with our forward line.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Morgs]

Max - you're spot on. I think you and I see things very much the same. 

Bournemouth is an absolute must win.  Forest was a must win but this is a crucial game and it is testament to how poorly we've started that we are having such crucial games in September. 

Regarding your points about a lack of goals in the side and our incumbent striking options. 

I advocated all Summer that we need another striker of a different profile to Jackson and Nkunku - a nasty, aggressive, 6"2+ lump focal point with good movement who bullies defenders who can hold the ball up and play with his back to goal, get on the end of set pieces and allow us to go long if the tiki taka isn't working.  

Nkunku's injury took away a lot of Jackson's potency and Broja is unlikely to be back to the player he was (still only arguably good enough for us even at his best) this season and needs a Championship loan for a lot of confidence-building games.  

Why didn't we sign someone?  Were the club that sure that the tiki taka possession football would be enough against this much-maligned and even-more-lamented ten men behind the ball physical press that 16 out of the 20 clubs in the league do against us home and away?  The same system that proved our ultimate undoing last season no matter who was in charge? 

I mean, you look at last season as a blueprint (with sage, wistful nods back a LOT further back than that) at the games where we encountered the ten behind the ball physical block and came up short pretty much all of the time: did they really think this would be any different this season? 

It smacks of a blind presumption that the total inability for us to deal with this was purely one of tactics and a change of managerial stewardship and of squad morale. 

If that is the case then someone at the club who is propagating this viewpoint needs to be dismissed. We set up basically the same way this season. 

If the club isn't taking a long hard look at how Arsenal and Man City are so successful at breaking down the same systems, then someone taking these decisions needs dismissing.  It is lazy (though not necessarily without merit) to say these teams get more protection from Refs and the media and so on than we do. They are better at it because even with the same possession dominance we enjoy most games, they move the ball quicker, are much quicker in spreading the ball wide, they are more direct, they can hold the ball up, they have runners from midfield and they can both go long if they need to.  *Shock horror* they both score goals from outside the box because they aren't afraid of losing possession in the opposing half like we are.  It isn't rocket science.  Once teams see you are set up to counter their massed rank deep press they will push up a bit more and open things up a little which is why you rarely see teams camped inside their own box clustered around their own six yard box against City and Arsenal - they know they'll get picked off eventually so it is better to try to hit them on the break. 

We cant do that. We only play one way.

After last season's debacle and Nkunku's injury we STILL don't have the option to go long and change things up because we are set up the exact same way as we have been.

Still far too easy to play against. 

 

 

[Morgs]

To paraphrase and because I cant edit the previous post:

We'll continue to struggle against 16/20 sides in the league because they know how we set up and can counter it and because we cannot play any other way.  

Until we have a Diego Costa type nasty lump up top to get in amongst it and provide a focal point and something for our crosses to target, we'll get nowhere. 

My question is:  did they club know this and deliberately not buy anyone, or were they that naïve to think freshening up the squad with the same sorts of players and having the team play the same way would somehow solve the issue? 

And what, may I wonder, does Poch think of this?  

Could it be that they do really rate Broja and feel he is the man to provide the go long option when we need it? Seriously? 

[Max Fowler]

21 minutes ago, Morgs said:

Max - you're spot on. I think you and I see things very much the same. 

Bournemouth is an absolute must win.  Forest was a must win but this is a crucial game and it is testament to how poorly we've started that we are having such crucial games in September. 

Regarding your points about a lack of goals in the side and our incumbent striking options. 

I advocated all Summer that we need another striker of a different profile to Jackson and Nkunku - a nasty, aggressive, 6"2+ lump focal point with good movement who bullies defenders who can hold the ball up and play with his back to goal, get on the end of set pieces and allow us to go long if the tiki taka isn't working.  

Nkunku's injury took away a lot of Jackson's potency and Broja is unlikely to be back to the player he was (still only arguably good enough for us even at his best) this season and needs a Championship loan for a lot of confidence-building games.  

Why didn't we sign someone?  Were the club that sure that the tiki taka possession football would be enough against this much-maligned and even-more-lamented ten men behind the ball physical press that 16 out of the 20 clubs in the league do against us home and away?  The same system that proved our ultimate undoing last season no matter who was in charge? 

I mean, you look at last season as a blueprint (with sage, wistful nods back a LOT further back than that) at the games where we encountered the ten behind the ball physical block and came up short pretty much all of the time: did they really think this would be any different this season? 

It smacks of a blind presumption that the total inability for us to deal with this was purely one of tactics and a change of managerial stewardship and of squad morale. 

If that is the case then someone at the club who is propagating this viewpoint needs to be dismissed. We set up basically the same way this season. 

If the club isn't taking a long hard look at how Arsenal and Man City are so successful at breaking down the same systems, then someone taking these decisions needs dismissing.  It is lazy (though not necessarily without merit) to say these teams get more protection from Refs and the media and so on than we do. They are better at it because even with the same possession dominance we enjoy most games, they move the ball quicker, are much quicker in spreading the ball wide, they are more direct, they can hold the ball up, they have runners from midfield and they can both go long if they need to.  *Shock horror* they both score goals from outside the box because they aren't afraid of losing possession in the opposing half like we are.  It isn't rocket science.  Once teams see you are set up to counter their massed rank deep press they will push up a bit more and open things up a little which is why you rarely see teams camped inside their own box clustered around their own six yard box against City and Arsenal - they know they'll get picked off eventually so it is better to try to hit them on the break. 

We cant do that. We only play one way.

After last season's debacle and Nkunku's injury we STILL don't have the option to go long and change things up because we are set up the exact same way as we have been.

Still far too easy to play against. 

 

 

For me, striker-wise, the one saving grace is Toney. As reported by Simon Philips (believe him or not): 

"Chelsea are keen on signing Brentford striker Ivan Toney in January and have even looked at trying to do a pre-deal to sign him. There are other clubs interested, but none of them are currently doing the groundwork that Chelsea are doing."

Waiting until January isn't ideal, but he's the right profile and for me would fit the bill even if he's only 5"10.

If that was our plan all along, then IMO it was all the more important to get at least another top level forward option this summer, given that we will have to wait until January. Let's not forget, we got rid of Ziyech, Pulisic, Havertz, and Mount (as well as Aubameyang and Lukaku). None of whom have been great recently but we've replaced with Palmer, Jackson and Nkunku.

For me, more than getting different profiles (target man, etc.), it's about having enough options with the right experience. 

Something like - Toney, Maddison, Nkunku, Sterling, Jackson would have sounded right to me. (with Broja, Chuk, Madueke, Mudryk as alternatives, possibly going out on loan).

Instead our top options now are Jackson, Nkunku, Sterling, Madueke, Mudryk.

That is partly why Pochettino feels forced into playing Chilwell out of position in the left-wing.
We need someone more reliable and proven higher up the pitch. 

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, Morgs said:

To paraphrase and because I cant edit the previous post:

We'll continue to struggle against 16/20 sides in the league because they know how we set up and can counter it and because we cannot play any other way.  

Until we have a Diego Costa type nasty lump up top to get in amongst it and provide a focal point and something for our crosses to target, we'll get nowhere. 

My question is:  did they club know this and deliberately not buy anyone, or were they that naïve to think freshening up the squad with the same sorts of players and having the team play the same way would somehow solve the issue? 

And what, may I wonder, does Poch think of this?  

Could it be that they do really rate Broja and feel he is the man to provide the go long option when we need it? Seriously? 

As well as getting more height in the side by playing Colwill at left-back, the proof is in the pudding how little Poch trusts his other forward options with Chilwell carrying on playing LW even though it's clearly not working.

Poch really wanted Mount to stay for this reason, and also apparently tried hard to convince Lautaro Martinez to join. Poch likes Broja a lot I think, but behind the scenes he will be worried about the make up of our squad in this key area.

[Max Fowler]

30 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

For me, striker-wise, the one saving grace is Toney. As reported by Simon Philips (believe him or not): 

"Chelsea are keen on signing Brentford striker Ivan Toney in January and have even looked at trying to do a pre-deal to sign him. There are other clubs interested, but none of them are currently doing the groundwork that Chelsea are doing."

Waiting until January isn't ideal, but he's the right profile and for me would fit the bill even if he's only 5"10.

If that was our plan all along, then IMO it was all the more important to get at least another top level forward option this summer, given that we will have to wait until January. Let's not forget, we got rid of Ziyech, Pulisic, Havertz, and Mount (as well as Aubameyang and Lukaku). None of whom have been great recently but we've replaced with Palmer, Jackson and Nkunku.

For me, more than getting different profiles (target man, etc.), it's about having enough options with the right experience. 

Something like - Toney, Maddison, Nkunku, Sterling, Jackson would have sounded right to me. (with Broja, Chuk, Madueke, Mudryk as alternatives, possibly going out on loan).

Instead our top options now are Jackson, Nkunku, Sterling, Madueke, Mudryk.

That is partly why Pochettino feels forced into playing Chilwell out of position in the left-wing.
We need someone more reliable and proven higher up the pitch. 

Looks like Poch is on the same page....

 

 

[Mark Kelly]

Admittedly I haven't see masses of Toney but he really doesn't strike me as a bullying lump of a player when I have seen him he looks to be more suited to a counter attacking game than anything . More of a  chisel than a sledgehammer .

Maybe I just haven't seen the right games?

 

[Backbiter]

6 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Admittedly I haven't see masses of Toney but he really doesn't strike me as a bullying lump of a player when I have seen him he looks to be more suited to a counter attacking game than anything . More of a  chisel than a sledgehammer .

Maybe I just haven't seen the right games?

 

Signing him would be a big gamble.

[McCreadie]

1 hour ago, Backbiter said:

Signing him would be a big gamble.

Signing any striker other than Haaland would be a big gamble

[Willian Dollar Baby]

15 hours ago, xceleryx said:

23 players minus those mentioned isn't that big of a squad, even without European football. When you take into consideration we're carrying several who've had injury issues, going in with any less would put us in serious shit if injuries piled up. Poch wanted a squad around 23, 24, 25 - as per a presser 2 months ago, which is exactly what he got.

Santos cost £18m. As stated before, with his talent, reputation, etc his value has gone up just through his move here alone based on what we paid. If we spent £40m on him I'd be more inclined to agree, but we got him at a low enough price point to where natural football inflation will have kicked in. Similar will apply to others in and around this price point. It's also unlikely he spends a full season on the bench at Forest unless he's truly awful. I don't disagree it'll be harder to hoard talent and loan them out like we once did, however where we often went wrong previously was hanging onto these players for far too long. There's a sweet spot where potential and age meet, allowing for profits to be had. We're also likely to use Strasbourg as a tool to help aid this all somewhat, maybe even other clubs if more get obtained. 

Agree to disagree on Hudson-Odoi. He's a very unintelligent footballer, but his injury is what ultimately hampered him the most because it took away his best asset. Since then he's failed to adapt and if you saw him at all during his stint in Germany last season you'd be questioning a fee of even £8m. It's also important to note that his ridiculous wages also played a part in the fee we received. Ampadu just isn't as good as he originally looked, this was evident across his three major loans. The fact he's playing in he Championship further highlights this. Gilmour I'm sure still divides opinions, for me I never felt he was as good as some liked to believe. Maybe we could've squeezed more out of his transfer, but he's also an undersized midfielder that requires being carried defensively. 

You still didn't answer my question, would you have preferred us to have kept an unhappy Kepa? As that would've been the outcome had we not allowed him to join Madrid on loan.

I know what you meant about Ziyech, I'm explaining that it would've cost us money to allow that to happen. We'd have to pay out his remaining contract, which makes zero sense for us when we could just get another club to pay that for us. Effectively ridding ourselves of his on book costs a season early in exchange for a loan. 

There's a variety of factors as to why we've sold some of the HG players we have, context around each sale is important and they aren't all one and the same. Too many just look at it casually and see a bunch of HG players going, which makes it look worse than it actually is. 

Never claimed we had remedied all of our problems, then again Rome wasn't built in a day either. We've got some promising foundations in place, if we can add to that in a few areas of need suddenly we're going to look pretty damn rosy. If we're still in the same boat in 3-4 years time then I'll be more concerned, but there's a lot of water that needs to pass under the bridge before we are there. I've said myself that I'd have liked another attacker or two of established quality, but am also aware that the market hasn't been littered with attractive options that are reasonably priced or truly obtainable, while also fitting the sort of timeframe ownership and manager have envisioned. It was also unlikely we solved all our issues in one window, more so when you consider the size of the job we had on hand. The fact we got what what we have done is remarkable in itself. 

To answer the Kepa question, yes I would have kept him. The same way that Brighton were prepared to keep Caicedo or Cucurella if their asking price wasn't met.

I think that offering to take our number 1 GK on loan days before the season start is an insulting offer, the equivalent of us bidding £20million for Enzo. He's under contract so if they want him, they take him permanently. Would have been happy with £20million which is less than what we paid for Sanchez! 

Due to how late they bid we were forced to go with Sanchez and a cheap MLS option. If the shoe was on the other foot we would be paying a premium, as we have done countless times. I'm also annoyed that with Bayern and Real both interested in Kepa we've somehow only come out with a 12 month loan and will be doing this all over again next summer.

[Sleeping Dave]

8 hours ago, Ham said:

Personally I CAN see them getting double figures each. Maybe not this season because of injuries and missing half seasons.

Also, I'm happy with our CB options, even without Silva.  I think we've scouted smart. Colwill is going to be getting a lot of "pre-assists" too with his passing prowess down the left hand side. Mark my words.

As for the midfield, and with the support behind of Caicedo and Lavia, Enzo will get goals and assists.  Carney was a diamond in the rough before we bought him.  Anyone who saw what he did for the England U21s just before we bought him will have seen that.  We just saw a shapshot of his threat before he was injured. He'll be some player for us. Watch this space.

I'll reiterate. I'm really impressed with our work in the last two windows since the transfer/scouting committee took over from TB. 

As Celery says, this squad isn't for this year although at full strength I'd still have us in top 4. 

I think we've seen the end of prime DeBruyne at city and they'll miss Gundogan and Mahrez over a season. 

Man U massively flatter to deceive. They are so unbalanced and in a state of flux with Greenwood , Antony and Sancho. 

Arsenal are a couple of key injuries away from implosion. They can't field the same 11 every game like they did last season with PL, CL and cups.  They'll pick up injuries.

Newcastle over achieved last season. We looked very good against their full strength side in pre-season. 

Liverpool are well away from their best of a few years ago. 

The next few years could be very interesting. 

I’m sorry but aren’t we talking about this season? I can promise you 100% that Sterling, Jackson, Nkunku and Madueke won’t all get 10+ PL goals this season.

I’d argue it’s not very likely to happen next season either and perhaps never. That very much remains to be seen, but I feel far from certain they have that sort of potential. 

What this team needs is a striker/attacker that can get us 15+ regularly. All the other too sides have one, of course we need one as well. The top teams in the PL has always had goalscorers in their sides - always. It seems we are the only club who think we can neglect that side of the game without our performances suffering from it. The arguments that we have created a lot of chances are absolutely irrelevant if we do t have anyone who can get on the end of them and score goals. It’s so basic man. I do value your optimism, but sometimes it’s a very thin line between being optimistic and ridiculously naive. 

[Ham]

15 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

I’m sorry but aren’t we talking about this season? I can promise you 100% that Sterling, Jackson, Nkunku and Madueke won’t all get 10+ PL goals this season.

I’d argue it’s not very likely to happen next season either and perhaps never. That very much remains to be seen, but I feel far from certain they have that sort of potential. 

What this team needs is a striker/attacker that can get us 15+ regularly. All the other too sides have one, of course we need one as well. The top teams in the PL has always had goalscorers in their sides - always. It seems we are the only club who think we can neglect that side of the game without our performances suffering from it. The arguments that we have created a lot of chances are absolutely irrelevant if we do t have anyone who can get on the end of them and score goals. It’s so basic man. I do value your optimism, but sometimes it’s a very thin line between being optimistic and ridiculously naive. 

Time will tell. 

[Sleeping Dave]

39 minutes ago, Ham said:

Time will tell. 

Indeed it will mate. No one will be happier than me if all four starts to bang em in for fun.

Oh what I would have given to have a Vialli in our team right now. Boom. Top four secured. 

[Rob B]

3 hours ago, Willian Dollar Baby said:

To answer the Kepa question, yes I would have kept him. The same way that Brighton were prepared to keep Caicedo or Cucurella if their asking price wasn't met.

I think that offering to take our number 1 GK on loan days before the season start is an insulting offer, the equivalent of us bidding £20million for Enzo. He's under contract so if they want him, they take him permanently. Would have been happy with £20million which is less than what we paid for Sanchez! 

Due to how late they bid we were forced to go with Sanchez and a cheap MLS option. If the shoe was on the other foot we would be paying a premium, as we have done countless times. I'm also annoyed that with Bayern and Real both interested in Kepa we've somehow only come out with a 12 month loan and will be doing this all over again next summer.

Real Madrid would never have signed Kepa permanently- everyone knows that when Courtois is fit again he plays.

The only deal on the table was a loan - and clearly there was a big financial incentive to get his wages off the books for a season. 

And we weren’t forced to go with Sanchez, he had already been bought prior to Kepa’s loan.

So rightly or wrongly, the club have assessed it as follows:

1. Sanchez is of a similar ability to Kepa overall (different strengths and weaknesses) so no real quality detriment to play one over the other 

2.  Big financial upside to loan Kepa 

3.  Neither are long term solutions and Kepa won’t be offered a new deal, so may as well start to sever ties now 

I’ve made this point elsewhere but there’s a lot of really knowledgeable football people who claim that Petrovic is the real deal. 

[Mark Kelly]

38 minutes ago, Rob B said:

 

I’ve made this point elsewhere but there’s a lot of really knowledgeable football people who claim that Petrovic is the real deal. 

Yes , Winstanley , Stewart and Shields ! 😁😁

[kev61]

On 13/09/2023 at 21:36, Ham said:

 

I suppose it depends on whether you start off from the position of a negative or positive person.

 

That is just wrong.We have spent a huge amount of money on a gamble.We lose Nkunku and the whole team collapse! - do you know how crazy that sounds after the money we have spent?

Most teams look better drilled than us.Ok poch needs more time and we don't really know who makes the decisions on  buying and selling - but we look 'slightly better' than last year is that not the least we should expect? - and you wonder why people are not optimistic!.

The whole thing looks like an experiment by Bohley  and co that will blow up in their face.

 

[kev61]

2 hours ago, kev61 said:

That is just wrong.We have spent a huge amount of money on a gamble.We lose Nkunku and the whole team collapse! - do you know how crazy that sounds after the money we have spent?

Most teams look better drilled than us.Ok poch needs more time and we don't really know who makes the decisions on  buying and selling - but we look 'slightly better' than last year is that not the least we should expect? - and you wonder why people are not optimistic!.

The whole thing looks like an experiment by Bohley  and co that will blow up in their face.

 

The other thing that worries me is Clearlake has nobody to answer to.

If you think Clearlake can not bring us down just look at Nick Leeson who single handedly  brought down barings bank that existed since the 18th century.

A tad over dramatic but there is a similarity in that they are risking a fortune.

If we go under how much will they lose?.We can already see them in the trading mode with no idea who we are buying and who we are selling.

Having said all that I'm 'optimistic'😀

Edited September 15, 2023 by kev61

[xceleryx]

8 hours ago, Willian Dollar Baby said:

To answer the Kepa question, yes I would have kept him. The same way that Brighton were prepared to keep Caicedo or Cucurella if their asking price wasn't met.

I think that offering to take our number 1 GK on loan days before the season start is an insulting offer, the equivalent of us bidding £20million for Enzo. He's under contract so if they want him, they take him permanently. Would have been happy with £20million which is less than what we paid for Sanchez! 

Due to how late they bid we were forced to go with Sanchez and a cheap MLS option. If the shoe was on the other foot we would be paying a premium, as we have done countless times. I'm also annoyed that with Bayern and Real both interested in Kepa we've somehow only come out with a 12 month loan and will be doing this all over again next summer.

@Rob B has more or less addressed the Kepa situation, so I'll leave it at that. 

Good debating it all with you though.

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, kev61 said:

That is just wrong.We have spent a huge amount of money on a gamble.We lose Nkunku and the whole team collapse! - do you know how crazy that sounds after the money we have spent?

Most teams look better drilled than us.Ok poch needs more time and we don't really know who makes the decisions on  buying and selling - but we look 'slightly better' than last year is that not the least we should expect? - and you wonder why people are not optimistic!.

The whole thing looks like an experiment by Bohley  and co that will blow up in their face.

We'd be gambling even if we went spent big on more proven established players to be fair. We've seen plenty of those come, miserably fail, then spend years trying to get them off the books before eventually going. Heck, look what an established group of players provided last season. With the way the transfer market is these days it's arguably a far more costly approach once you consider the financial elements to it all. 

Would people be more satisfied if we looked more impressive on paper? 

End of the day there is no right or wrong approach to all of this. We're obviously not looking to compete immediately, so it make sense to build in a manner that aligns with the timeframe ownership and co envision. We still need to improve season upon season, and that begins now. While the league table doesn't currently show it, we certainly have more than slightly improved from last season in the four games played so far. Our achilles heel remains our finishing, an issue we've had for several years now for one reason or another. If we could finish our chances we'd be at the pointy end of the table currently and I'd guarantee the whole demeanour arounds things currently would be flipped 180 degrees. That's the fine margins of football though.

[kev61]

On 13/09/2023 at 09:20, Thiago97 said:

I think you are unfairly attempting to divide camps here between fans who are angry, frustrated and concerned - The Anti's if you like - To be compared with the camp you have erected for the positives, optimists and in your view, probably naïve.

This comes back to what myself, and Ham more recently has been saying about the middle ground. It's impossible not to have some concerns with how our owners have approached the last 12 months.

The stark reality is it is just way to early to judge anything by. If we are perpetually in a cycle every window of buying and selling players, then I don't see any Chelsea fan being happy about this. We don't know what the future holds here and how this will play out.

The new owners have got a fair bit wrong, but they have also got some things right too (massively reduced wage bill, managed to pull off large important transfers and bring quality to the club). Either way, it is just to early to judge the new players, new manager and the new owners.  I suspect it will be another 12 months from here before we finally start to see a picture of what the future is for the club under this ownership regime.

We have no option but to be patient with it all. However, being patient and seeing how it plays out, is not blind optimism that everything in the garden smells of beautiful flowers right now.

You'r missing the point that most fans do - 12 months???.Why are spurs doing so well(without Harry Kane)why are Brighton streets ahead of us, yes Brighton!.Why are Newcastle streets ahead of us and Arsenal - 'but we looked good against Liverpool and we looked good in pre-season'.The reality is we are have went backwards since then.

An injury to Nkunku and Reece doesn't cut it.Gusto is a very fine replacement for james and we could have signed Felix that could have done a similar role to Nkunku. 

I'm sick and tired of people  making excuses for our new owners.

My prediction is we will improve but not to get top 4,possibly top 6.I can't believe a successful investment  company haven't planned the worst case scenario and will walk away.

[kev61]

It's good to see the empty vessels are not getting their own way with the likes of Morg and Max.

We used to have bluerod that went against the grain.Whatever happened to him?.

[kev61]

On 13/09/2023 at 09:41, Mark Kelly said:

 

You can see what they are trying to do.

Can you enlighten  us Mark - I can't.