Transfer Talk Topic

[Dwmh]

11 hours ago, kev61 said:

Maatsen has looked very  good and Chabolah has proved he is as least as good as Colwill in a centre back role.

 

I like Maatsen and especially Chalobah.  Of all the players out of the Academy I would have rated James, Mount, Abraham, Gallagher and Chalobah as the best proven.  
But this season Colvill really does look like a top top player, and very complete.
While Disasi has really impressed me.

And we have too many CBs.  If only we could offload Fofana at half price...

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Sciatika said:

So you mean the Italian Job: "Maybe the professor's not bent. Everybody in the world is bent." Noel Coward was very good in that, imo; Benny Hill, not so much. However, this is not a case of being bent or not. If someone came in and offered a billion for either James or Chilwell, the business would not be bent to decide that the upside would be too great to refuse. I'd be worried if they chose otherwise. 

I was only about the film.  Which still is a classic 
 

As for Chilwell and James, one or both will be moved on next summer if the gang of three’s golden goose doesn’t lay CL or European football for next season. 

[My Blood Is Blue]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

I like Maatsen and especially Chalobah.  Of all the players out of the Academy I would have rated James, Mount, Abraham, Gallagher and Chalobah as the best proven.  
But this season Colvill really does look like a top top player, and very complete.
While Disasi has really impressed me.

And we have too many CBs.  If only we could offload Fofana at half price...

Yeah, I think Fofana is potentially the biggest issue for us. Will he ever actually stay fit and if he does? What will his level be? I think he is a player with great potential, but he's missing big chunks of crucial years of development at the moment and my fear is that by the time he comes back Disasi, Badiashile and Colwill will all be ahead of him and yet he is the guy that cost us the most!

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

And we have too many CBs.  If only we could offload Fofana at half price...

Neither Fofana or Cucurella will go anywhere. If they are moved on it would make TB look like a buffoon as all these players were brought in the summer of 2022 when TB was commander in chief 

[McCreadie]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

Neither Fofana or Cucurella will go anywhere. If they are moved on it would make TB look like a buffoon as all these players were brought in the summer of 2022 when TB was commander in chief 

Koulibaly and Aubameyang say hi.

 

 

[kev61]

16 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Maatsen is completely unproven at this level and it's possible Poch just hasn't seen enough in training or pre-season to justify putting him above those more experienced than him... maybe he's just a really good Championship player? Personally, I think he's made his mind up that he'll move on and the club and Poch are aware of this, so aren't going to put too much more time into his development (complete guess, obviously). I wouldn't be horrifically upset if Maatsen goes, purely because I have no idea how good he is or will be at this level... I'm more upset about Hall going than I am about the possibility of losing Maatsen (especially when you see the minimal chances he's getting to play), because we've seen that he can actually cut it at this level.

As for Chalobah, he's a decent player, but the fact that at 24 years old and with a couple of seasons of PL football under his belt, he is 'as good' as a 20-year-old Colwill with 1 year of PL experience, probably explains why the club would consider selling him. Chalobah has probably hit his ceiling, whereas Colwill has much more improvement still to come. Add to that Disasi is, IMO, better than Chalobah and Badiashile is arguably better than him as well already, at 22 years old, Chalobah will have very limited game time.

Just to reply.Chabolah has never looked as bad as Colwill or Disasi.

Chabolah  "has probably reached his ceiling" ...What at 24?.

I would have thought players should be judged on what they do in competitive games and not what they do on the training ground.

As far as Hall is concerned...he didn't look as if he had 'great' potential to me...probably a graham le saux potential at best.

There is obviously  more than purely football on the field going on here.

The centre backs we have bought at a massive price are no better than Chabolah, and how much is Maatsen's versatility  worth at such a young age?.

People keep talking about a player's ceiling.At what age do you judge this.

  

Did Jamie Vardy reach his ' ceiling' at Fleetwood..... obviously not.

I just think  Maatsen and Chabolah had a higher ceiling than some of the chumps we have signed at a great cost.

 

 

 

 

[paulw66]

19 hours ago, McCreadie said:

Koulibaly and Aubameyang say hi.

 

 

saved me the bother. thank you.

[paulw66]

On 26/10/2023 at 02:16, kev61 said:

 

Maatsen has looked very  good and Chabolah has proved he is as least as good as Colwill in a centre back role.

Has Maatsen even been tried at left back for us?.

 

So much to unpick here..........

"Maatsen has looked very good".........next sentence, "has Maatsen even been tried at left back for us?"

So, he has looked good in the Championship (so far). 

And you're championing Chalobah (24 and no England caps) over Colwill (20 and just got his first cap). 

On 26/10/2023 at 02:16, kev61 said:

 

It seems to me we are still groping in the dark as far as recognising young talent is concerned.

 

Colwill 20, Gusto 20, Gallagher 23, Enzo 22, Caicedo 22, Broja 22, Palmer 21, Jackson 22, Mudryk 22......I could go on. We have the youngest team and squad in the PL, even with Thiago boosting the average. 

 

On 26/10/2023 at 02:16, kev61 said:

 

Say what you will about Conte but he's not a yes man that sucks up to owners for the pay cheque(pay check to our American brethern).

 

And the number of young players to get a look in under Conte? 0.

The only young player in and around Conte's squad (in 16/17) was RLC who was then loaned out in 17/18 to make way for the signings of Bakayoko and Drinkwater. 

You seem to be very confused with what you want. Do you want a manager who is going to give young players a go, and play the long game, or do you want a winner and pain in the @rse like Conte, who wont give a stuff about youth, but will give you a good chance of winning a trophy in the short term, then disappear after falling out with everyone, leaving a mess behind in the medium to long term.

On 26/10/2023 at 02:16, kev61 said:

 

It seems to me if we can let young talented players like Maatsen and Chabolah go - it doesn't bode well for the future.

 

It does for Colwill. 

And you haven't, by your own admission, seen anything of Maatsen at this level. 

Chalobah is a decent squad player, but Colwill is streets ahead, both in the immediate future, and even more so relative to age. 

[ROTG]

7 hours ago, paulw66 said:

We have the youngest team and squad in the PL, even with Thiago boosting the average. 

What’s your point?

[kev61]

5 hours ago, ROTG said:

What’s your point?

Exactly. Not all Young players develope into top pl players.

I really hate to be negative but the owners still worry me more than anything else.

It is inevitable that most fans will want them gone if we don't get top 6 - which is the minimum require ment with money spent.

The $64,000 question is when do you stop blaming the manager and start blaming player's wages and their attitude to want to do well.

 

[Sciatika]

The point about relying on the young is that it has to be a medium or long-term plan. The owners have put in place that plan. They must be expecting that it will take time. I think we will get into the top six, if not this season, then next. That is probably soon enough. After all, who is going to get rid of the owners?

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Sciatika said:

The point about relying on the young is that it has to be a medium or long-term plan. The owners have put in place that plan. They must be expecting that it will take time. I think we will get into the top six, if not this season, then next. That is probably soon enough. After all, who is going to get rid of the owners?

Thanks

You have summed it up nicely, top 6 within two seasons.  
 

Whilst the current top teams will continue to invest and evolve being able to attract the cream of the crop and raising the bar even higher. 

[thevelourfog]

11 hours ago, Sciatika said:

The point about relying on the young is that it has to be a medium or long-term plan. The owners have put in place that plan. They must be expecting that it will take time. I think we will get into the top six, if not this season, then next. That is probably soon enough. After all, who is going to get rid of the owners?

For who?

Probably not for the accountants, who have something like £150m of amortisation on the books for each of the next 6 or 7 years and no CL money coming in.

Probably not for the (admittedly very few) top quality players we have whose agents will start agitating for moves.

Probably not for any coach we hire, given this lot are already four of them in.

An aspiration to make Europa League football in another two years would be an absolute disaster.

[Mark Kelly]

Don't worry lads, we can't score for love nor money and have no guile in the side but the boffins are here to save us by buying a name CB in the next window by reports coming in. 

I expect we'd best search high and low for who's in shocking form and nearing the end of their rope at their current club. 

Knowing this lot they'll buy Maguire for £120m

[Dwmh]

43 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

For who?

Probably not for the accountants, who have something like £150m of amortisation on the books for each of the next 6 or 7 years and no CL money coming in.

This.  By Spending high and contracting long we have simply spent all our funds not for 2 or 3 years but for 7 years.
FFP as far as I am concerned is pure cartel and quite illegal, I'd have no problem at all with any owner willing to fund considerable losses for my pleasure.  But apparently the CreamCakes are expecting not just to break even on P&L measured FFP, but actually make some money out of the club!!
 

49 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Probably not for the (admittedly very few) top quality players we have whose agents will start agitating for moves.

Colwill, Caicedo, Enzo, Gallagher, James.  Not so few.  Mind that would happen if we were doing well.

[xceleryx]

4 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

For who?

Probably not for the accountants, who have something like £150m of amortisation on the books for each of the next 6 or 7 years and no CL money coming in.

Probably not for the (admittedly very few) top quality players we have whose agents will start agitating for moves.

Probably not for any coach we hire, given this lot are already four of them in.

An aspiration to make Europa League football in another two years would be an absolute disaster.

There's ways around not getting that Champions League money in short term, be it through additional sponsorship or the sale of players - which there are several reasonable candidates. Obviously spending years without European football as a whole would be a bigger problem, but right now that's not a bridge we're crossing. 

Those "top quality" players who joined us will have joined knowing the project, many who've joined have spoken about it being part of why they signed. And look, if some do want out that's entirely fine. It'll mean other clubs needing to step up to the plate with offers of appropriate value. 

The goal is to always finish as high as possible, I don't think spending another year without European football would be a disaster personally. Actually, the opposite really. It may of course hinder recruitment a little to a degree, but we're probably not in the running for those mega stars anyway in all honesty. But I think from a development standpoint having just domestic competitions to worry about is arguably better for us and where we are right now. 

[Dwmh]

21 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

There's ways around not getting that Champions League money in short term, be it through additional sponsorship or the sale of players - which there are several reasonable candidates. Obviously spending years without European football as a whole would be a bigger problem, but right now that's not a bridge we're crossing. 

1. So there is FFP (which in my mind doesn't mean a thing as it is illegal) and FFP can as you say be got around.
2. And there is actual trading profit which the formal P&L is supposed to be some kind of approximation to.
3. And there is cash flow which in the long term should be the same as P&L with some time lags
4. And finally there is resale value.

All Clearlake car about is 4, Exit value.
But 4 depends on 3 which depends on 2 and no one gives a damn about FFP.

Additional sponsorship earns nothing for ClearLake if like the Infinite Adventure it comes out of ClearLake assets.

I don't see how we can justifiy the price ClearLake put on us without CL.  More over i don't see how we can keep or attract players
And most of all I don't see how we can attract 1 top manager a year without CL, let alone 3.

And the real issue is how long ClearLake treats us as a rising star investment, and when does it re-classify us as a dog (in Boston Matrix terms) .  That will be disastrous for the long term of the club and for those fans who are in it for the long term.

If they keep doing the high profile interviews and portfolio commentary we will know the score and find out any changes pretty quickly.

29 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Those "top quality" players who joined us will have joined knowing the project, many who've joined have spoken about it being part of why they signed. And look, if some do want out that's entirely fine. It'll mean other clubs needing to step up to the plate with offers of appropriate value. 

They are ALL 20, 21 or 22.  They literally know nothing.  They have been railroaded to the club by their current agent because of the fees, the money.
They'll change their agent and the new agent will want a new deal and an exit PDQ without champions league.  Enzo won the WC less than a year ago!  All the other big names had offers from clubs currently in the CL.
 

31 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

The goal is to always finish as high as possible, I don't think spending another year without European football would be a disaster personally. Actually, the opposite really. It may of course hinder recruitment a little to a degree, but we're probably not in the running for those mega stars anyway in all honesty. But I think from a development standpoint having just domestic competitions to worry about is arguably better for us and where we are right now. 

Yes as high as possible.  Another year without European Football is quite unavoidable now, so I agree it is not longer an issue 10 games into the season already.
I'd like to think we were in the running for a striker, but perhaps we aren't.

 

 

[thevelourfog]

5 hours ago, xceleryx said:

There's ways around not getting that Champions League money in short term, be it through additional sponsorship or the sale of players - which there are several reasonable candidates. Obviously spending years without European football as a whole would be a bigger problem, but right now that's not a bridge we're crossing. 

Those "top quality" players who joined us will have joined knowing the project, many who've joined have spoken about it being part of why they signed. And look, if some do want out that's entirely fine. It'll mean other clubs needing to step up to the plate with offers of appropriate value. 

The goal is to always finish as high as possible, I don't think spending another year without European football would be a disaster personally. Actually, the opposite really. It may of course hinder recruitment a little to a degree, but we're probably not in the running for those mega stars anyway in all honesty. But I think from a development standpoint having just domestic competitions to worry about is arguably better for us and where we are right now. 

You can't possibly believe the bit I've put in bold. If the goal is to finish as high as possible, why did we finish in our lowest position on 30-odd years last year and look on course to (at best) marginally top that? And it sold be the "opposite" of disastrous (ie, a good thing) to not get European football?

This lot have pretty much established they can't get lucrative sponsorship to save their lives, and most of the players we bought came from "projects" (Benfica, Brighton) so clearly have no issue leaving them.

As DWMH says, European qualification for next year is, depressingly, already off the table so in that sense not worth worrying too much about here. But it is not a good thing for the club and is going to make many aspects of running it even vaguely well very difficult.

[thevelourfog]

5 hours ago, Dwmh said:

1. And the real issue is how long ClearLake treats us as a rising star investment, and when does it re-classify us as a dog (in Boston Matrix terms) .  That will be disastrous for the long term of the club and for those fans who are in it for the long term.

Snipped for brevity, but agreed this is a real worry. Not yet two years in and Clearlake are well on course to absolutely tanking the value of their investment. My guess is that it won't be too long until at least one of Boehly and Eghbali is pushed out by Clearlake, and then not even close to the reported 10 years before they are trying to sell us. 

[Mark Kelly]

3 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

Snipped for brevity, but agreed this is a real worry. Not yet two years in and Clearlake are well on course to absolutely tanking the value of their investment. My guess is that it won't be too long until at least one of Boehly and Eghbali is pushed out by Clearlake, and then not even close to the reported 10 years before they are trying to sell us. 

I don't believe they're allowed to sell us under the terms of the contract before the ten years are up whether we want that or not .

Our demise really couldn't have come at a worse time for a rebuild , a dearth of world class players , every coach invested in a horrific possession based regimented demented pressing football and the competition over the hills and far away in comparison .

I think ROTG in one of his lucid moments suggested that if you hire the scouting team that got Brighton to eighth and identified players to sign that Brighton were scouting,  then eighth is really the pinnacle of what can be expected.

The next eight years are likely to be pretty uninspiring .

I can't see European football on the agenda for four or  five years to be honest.

[thevelourfog]

41 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think ROTG in one of his lucid moments suggested that if you hire the scouting team that got Brighton to eighth and identified players to sign that Brighton were scouting,  then eighth is really the pinnacle of what can be expected.

Just none of it really adds up to me. Because we're buying those Brighton/8th placed players (a few exceptions), but are not paying Brighton/8th placed prices. So the plan can't really be to make money on resale, and even if it was, that sort of profit would be pennies for the sort of return an organisation like Clearlake expects. I know there's a line of thinking, especially amongst American billionaires, that PL clubs are massively underpriced given what they could bring in, but again ... If you're looking to flip for profit, I don't think you spend close to £2bn on your initial outlay. What, realistically, will a PL non-CL club be worth in 8 years? There must be something I'm missing, because these guys clearly think there's profit to be made, and that it doesn't have to be from the actual football.

I'll do my best to not be too exclusionary about it, but I don't think supporters who don't go to games have as much skin in the game when it comes to talking about it being okay not having CL money for a few years. It'll be those of us who go who are £200-300 more out of pocket next year because of it.

[Dwmh]

4 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

My guess is that it won't be too long until at least one of Boehly and Eghbali is pushed out by Clearlake, and then not even close to the reported 10 years before they are trying to sell us. 

Maybe I got it wrong but I thought there had already been step backs.  Both have other billion dollar companies they are involved with, moving them diplomatically away would be easy.

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

I don't believe they're allowed to sell us under the terms of the contract before the ten years are up whether we want that or not 

Who did they sign that agreement with?
I'm asking because I really found the ousting of RA painful and didn't follow the details closely.  Still can't spell Tomboli and Eggboli and don't know what they actually do.
But a contract has counterparties, and if counterparties agree any of the terms can be over turned.

 

24 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

. I know there's a line of thinking, especially amongst American billionaires, that PL clubs are massively underpriced given what they could bring in,

They are used to 2 ideas that don't work here.
Franchises - leagues that sell Franchises with the promise that weaker clubs will be given assistance in terms of salary caps on the big clubs, first choices to bottom clubs in the draft and No relegation.

Too Big to Fail ideas that apply to banks that always get rescued but don't apply to Football clubs.
Sheffield Wednesday for example.
American sport is not a competitive business, like most industries in USA, it uses monoploy structures,  copyright and the law to guarantee above normal profits.
 

[Mark Kelly]

34 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

 

Who did they sign that agreement with?
I'm asking because I really found the ousting of RA painful and didn't follow the details closely.  Still can't spell Tomboli and Eggboli and don't know what they actually do.
But a contract has counterparties, and if counterparties agree any of the terms can be over turned.

 

I believe with Abramovic under the auspices of the Government.

[Dwmh]

3 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I believe with Abramovic under the auspices of the Government.

In which case Abramovich can approve a re-sale.  No real issue here if they are looking to sell to a safer owner.

Unless RA thinks in 10 years time the world will be a better place and he can come back to London and buy Chelsea.  
Might be a long wait for us.  6 months of Benitez waiting for the next guy seemed a lifetime.

[east lower]

10 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I believe with Abramovic under the auspices of the Government.

Said this elsewhere but pertinent here - where's the money from the sale of the club promised to the Ukrainians?

I've not read anything that's detailed the payment's.

I do have my suspicions and they most certainly involve the UK Government using the funds to replace their own funding liability.