Transfer Talk Topic

[thevelourfog]

6 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I agree that £60m was a deal worth pursuing,  but £100m is not a realistic deal we should be looking at. They are trying to create a bidding war, as Arsenal and Spurs are likely needing another N09 option.

Incidentally, he doesn’t have a gambling issue. He was stupid to bet on football whilst playing, that’s all.  Ignore this addict PR , cos that is exactly what it is, a PR exercise to reduce a ban.

A gambling addict would rack up far more than 200 odd bets over a 4 year period. That’s an average of approx 50 bets a season, for a player who plays 50-60 games a season . Think how many football games happen a season, yet we are supposed to believe Toney is a highly selective addict that only bets against on club games he is involved with ! Addicts are not selective with what they are addicted too.  There is not gambling issue now he has been caught. 

I don't think this post is especially wise. Addiction is not about volume, but dependency. And all we know about are the bets he placed that are a) prohibited and b) he got caught for. We know absolutely nothing about his broader behaviour or what meaning it had for him. He could well have been placing hundreds of "legal" bets. It is odd and unnecessarily unkind to be diagnosing from a distance here. 

[Max Fowler]

20 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I agree that £60m was a deal worth pursuing,  but £100m is not a realistic deal we should be looking at. They are trying to create a bidding war, as Arsenal and Spurs are likely needing another N09 option.

Incidentally, he doesn’t have a gambling issue. He was stupid to bet on football whilst playing, that’s all.  Ignore this addict PR , cos that is exactly what it is, a PR exercise to reduce a ban.

A gambling addict would rack up far more than 200 odd bets over a 4 year period. That’s an average of approx 50 bets a season, for a player who plays 50-60 games a season . Think how many football games happen a season, yet we are supposed to believe Toney is a highly selective addict that only bets against on club games he is involved with ! Addicts are not selective with what they are addicted too.  There is not gambling issue now he has been caught. 

I am not meaning to stigmatise gambling, but the fact of the matter is, when you are now potentially paying £100 million+ for a footballer, it's naïve to think this wouldn't come into the equation as a potential mark against his character.

Footballers are human too, but footballers at the very, very highest level invariably possess extreme levels of self control. Think of Harry Kane, Ng Kante even - I know there are counterexamples but the trend generally holds.

There is something about Toney which is doubtful compared to say a Bellingham - I don't think he speaks particularly well - he has an arrogance which can be good in a striker, but the whole package isn't a character that wows me like Jude or even Caicedo.

Toney could be a great lad but these factors make him too big a risk at 100 million. Let alone his quality on the pitch which is very decent but unproven at the very highest level.

Oshimen is someone that wows me, grew up a Chelsea fan I believe and would be worth going further than Toney for. His injury record is the only thing that worries me.

 

 

 

[Thiago97]

20 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I don't think this post is especially wise. Addiction is not about volume, but dependency. And all we know about are the bets he placed that are a) prohibited and b) he got caught for. We know absolutely nothing about his broader behaviour or what meaning it had for him. He could well have been placing hundreds of "legal" bets. It is odd and unnecessarily unkind to be diagnosing from a distance here. 

It’s just an opinion. I consider myself a semi-pro gambler. It’s an industry I understand, and betting is something I understand . 
Betting is very much a dirty word in the UK currently. We have an unelected gambling commission who are currently trying to cripple the industry, with a government who are seemingly supporting this , with gambling addiction being their reasoning for why they are taking this course of action , despite the stats of addicts being less than 1%. 
It seems every player guilty of being caught gambling on football right now, can claim addition as a way to have that ban reduced. From my knowledge and understanding of betting, Toney’s betting patterns do not read like an addiction. I would make more bets than he did, yet I am very much a responsible gambler. An addict would just betting betting on all sorts of sports and in a higher volume , without any control. Merson is an example of a gambling addict, probably more important to highlight, an addictive personality in general. Gambling just happens to be one form of his addiction. 
 

[My Blood Is Blue]

Brentford want £100m for Toney? In that case, expect Chelsea to offer £50m early in the window, then do nothing until the day before the deadline when they will go back in with an offer of £80m, only to come away having paid £120m for Toney.

For that money, I wouldn’t even enquire. I don’t think Toney is the answer for us, but the bigger problem is, I don’t see many other options out there either. 

[ROTG]

12 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

I agree that £60m was a deal worth pursuing,

Toney is a mid PL player and will not improve and would be another waster of money by the gang of three. 

Alternatively one could say the club has a mid table mindset these days 

[Mark Kelly]

37 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Brentford want £100m for Toney? In that case, expect Chelsea to offer £50m early in the window, then do nothing until the day before the deadline when they will go back in with an offer of £80m, only to come away having paid £120m for Toney.

For that money, I wouldn’t even enquire. I don’t think Toney is the answer for us, but the bigger problem is, I don’t see many other options out there either. 

£100m is at least £65m too much , and I'm being generous. 

[kev61]

4 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

£100m is at least £65m too much , and I'm being generous. 

Yep.At that price unveil him with a clowns suit on and a flower that squirts water from a lapel.

[Sleeping Dave]

I was very critical of how the ownership structured the squad and how they went about our signings. However, I am actually starting to sway a bit on that early conviction. I get that people are worried, I'm one of them (!), but if 60-70% of the long-term bets we've done come good we are certainly in a for a good ride. Perhaps not a championship winning dynsasty squad, but certainly a squad that should make CL qualification almost a certainty over a decade long period with a league title here and there and a few cup wins.

Mind, we are not there yet. But there is some real long-term potential in this squad: 

GK: We need a GK1 that is right up there with the best (still). Depth really good and lots of potential.

GK1, Sanchez , Petrovic, Slonina

FB: Plenty of options here, we should be good for the medium-term without any further investment. If Cucurella settles, as he seems to have been doing over the last few weeks we have plenty of options to choose from. 

James, Chilwell, Gusto, Cucurella (Maatsen if he sign a new deal)

CB: We are strong here and have crazy potential if it can be realised. When Silva retires we might need one top CB but it is not an absolute must.

Badiashile, Disasi, Colwill, Chalobah

CM: We have at least five players in this position for the long-term, without even counting Santos or Casadei. 

Enzo, Caicedo, Gallagher, Ugochukwu, Lavia

AM: Crazy depth also here, although we do lack actual goals on a consistent basis. I feel we need to add one more player here in the medium-term that is a recognized goalscorer and then we are set for the LT.

Palmer, Mudryk, Nkunku, Sterling, New Goalscoring AM

S: Our never-ending achilles heel. Badly need a proven goalscorer... 

S1, Jackson, Broja

In my mind, we are 3-4 signings away from having a very, very good side. Maybe even an excellent one over time. In a way I'm happy we have spent so much, meaning we are restricted on how much we can spend going forward. If we only sign 1-2 players over the next 18 months and they are the right players I'll be happy. 

In order of importance: 

S1

GK1

Goalscoring AM

Possibly a top class CB

[Mark Kelly]

Sadly @Sleeping Dave the club is prioritising a new striker and another CB by all abouts so we can forget about the other positions for now

Reading into it I expect they think this is Silvas last season and Forfana will never make it after serious injury. 

The way thinks work I'm expecting Harry Maguire.

 

[ROTG]

54 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Yep.At that price unveil him with a clowns suit on and a flower that squirts water from a lapel.

Nothing new then 😀

[Thiago97]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

Toney is a mid PL player and will not improve and would be another waster of money by the gang of three. 

Alternatively one could say the club has a mid table mindset these days 

It's very hard to come to this conclusion. Players do improve later into their years, you only have to look at Jamie Vardy as one obvious example. He was at Leicester 2-3 years in his mid 20's, before he went up a level in his late 20's and ended up firing Leicester to the title. He had 2-3 seasons as a feared PL striker into his early 30's.

Toney has only had a short period of time at this level. He only had a short period of time at Championship level, but he produced there and then managed to take that onto becoming a good PL striker.

I certainly would not entertain £100m for him. It's way overpriced. 

However, my point is, you cannot say he will not improve. He has met everything thrown at him so far, so we don't know what his ceiling is really. The only time he has failed was as a young kid leaving Northampton to go to Newcastle. At every other stage of his career, his career has been upward progression, through to the highest level.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Thiago97

[Max Fowler]

58 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

I was very critical of how the ownership structured the squad and how they went about our signings. However, I am actually starting to sway a bit on that early conviction. I get that people are worried, I'm one of them (!), but if 60-70% of the long-term bets we've done come good we are certainly in a for a good ride. Perhaps not a championship winning dynsasty squad, but certainly a squad that should make CL qualification almost a certainty over a decade long period with a league title here and there and a few cup wins.

Mind, we are not there yet. But there is some real long-term potential in this squad: 

GK: We need a GK1 that is right up there with the best (still). Depth really good and lots of potential.

GK1, Sanchez , Petrovic, Slonina

FB: Plenty of options here, we should be good for the medium-term without any further investment. If Cucurella settles, as he seems to have been doing over the last few weeks we have plenty of options to choose from. 

James, Chilwell, Gusto, Cucurella (Maatsen if he sign a new deal)

CB: We are strong here and have crazy potential if it can be realised. When Silva retires we might need one top CB but it is not an absolute must.

Badiashile, Disasi, Colwill, Chalobah

CM: We have at least five players in this position for the long-term, without even counting Santos or Casadei. 

Enzo, Caicedo, Gallagher, Ugochukwu, Lavia

AM: Crazy depth also here, although we do lack actual goals on a consistent basis. I feel we need to add one more player here in the medium-term that is a recognized goalscorer and then we are set for the LT.

Palmer, Mudryk, Nkunku, Sterling, New Goalscoring AM

S: Our never-ending achilles heel. Badly need a proven goalscorer... 

S1, Jackson, Broja

In my mind, we are 3-4 signings away from having a very, very good side. Maybe even an excellent one over time. In a way I'm happy we have spent so much, meaning we are restricted on how much we can spend going forward. If we only sign 1-2 players over the next 18 months and they are the right players I'll be happy. 

In order of importance: 

S1

GK1

Goalscoring AM

Possibly a top class CB

Yes re: @Mark Kelly apparently we are prioritizing a CB to replace Silva, not sure it needs to be our priority tbh.

I agree with most of what you say but "crazy amount of depth" is a bit much for our CAM and winger areas. They are mostly all showing good signs of progression but to have crazy depth you need top quality and top rotation options in every position. I don't think 1 of our CAMs / wingers would clearly get in Arsenal, Man City or Liverpool's first 11 (maybe Sterling) - that tells me we have a way to go there.

[Max Fowler]

9 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

It's very hard to come to this conclusion. Players do improve later into their years, you only have to look at Jamie Vardy as one obvious example. He was at Leicester 2-3 years in his mid 20's, before he went up a level in his late 20's and ended up firing Leicester to the title. He had 2-3 seasons as a feared PL striker into his early 30's.

I suppose the difference is I don't see that explosive power with Toney, and it worries we how he would cope against a low block, although he does seem to operate well in tight spaces (good ball control, heading etc.)

I would favour the raw power of Oshimen - more similar to Vardy.

[Thiago97]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

I suppose the difference is I don't see that explosive power with Toney, and it worries we how he would cope against a low block, although he does seem to operate well in tight spaces (good ball control, heading etc.)

I would favour the raw power of Oshimen - more similar to Vardy.

Very fair points Max. This is the difference between a thoughtful response, as opposed to a comment that lacks any thought and substance.

Personally, I think Osimhen is also too expensive at £100m ,and not the kind of player I could see us getting in January. Though I would still be very excited if we could sign him.

I think it will be difficult to get any top level striker in January . A couple of options I think are worth looking at are the two lads at RB Leipzeig in Openda and Sesko. We have been burnt there before, but that was just poor scouting as you only had to watch Werner closely, to realise he does not have the fundamentals required to be a success at Chelsea.

Openda and Sesko from the small bits I have seen, both look very talented strikers. 

[My Blood Is Blue]

I'm not suggesting this list is spot on or correct, however, it does show you just why it's so hard to find a proper top-quality striker as this list is really quite poor.

https://www.90min.com/posts/the-25-best-strikers-in-world-football-ranked

[Max Fowler]

17 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Very fair points Max. This is the difference between a thoughtful response, as opposed to a comment that lacks any thought and substance.

Personally, I think Osimhen is also too expensive at £100m ,and not the kind of player I could see us getting in January. Though I would still be very excited if we could sign him.

I think it will be difficult to get any top level striker in January . A couple of options I think are worth looking at are the two lads at RB Leipzeig in Openda and Sesko. We have been burnt there before, but that was just poor scouting as you only had to watch Werner closely, to realise he does not have the fundamentals required to be a success at Chelsea.

Openda and Sesko from the small bits I have seen, both look very talented strikers. 

I think we can exploit the conflict between Oshimen and Napoli as long as we are willing to cough up, maybe not in January.

Good shouts. I also don't think we should be afraid to scout from the German league just because it has hurt us before. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

I'm not suggesting this list is spot on or correct, however, it does show you just why it's so hard to find a proper top-quality striker as this list is really quite poor.

https://www.90min.com/posts/the-25-best-strikers-in-world-football-ranked

All the more reason to go all out to get one of the top players on that list in Oshimen.

With such a dearth it really does become worth paying over the odds for the very best, as City have found with Haaland's wage if not fee.

[Morgs]

A few observations from last night while I wait for my coffee to cool down. 

Cucurella's renaissance at Chelsea continues apace and he is really starting to look the part now. Didn't put a foot wrong last night against a side looking to target him down that side. Blackburn's best player was running at him most of the game and he barely got a kick. So much so that he reduced himself to throwing himself on the floor and playing for free kicks. Whilst i grant that he wasn't exactly up against Messi or indeed Man City, he played very well. Credit where it is due, if he carries on like that then he will see off Maatsen no problem, which lets be honest, none or very few of us saw coming over the summer. One thing I've always liked about him is the speed at which he fizzes the ball around. Moving the ball quicker down that side does help us a lot and once Mudryk learns to keep his head up and receive it early first time to really roast the fullback I think he could really benefit. Cucu meanwhile isn't there yet but his redemption arc is as steep as it is surprising - very pleasing to see. Keep it up!

More poor refereeing last night again - they missed two nailed on pens, one for us and one for Blackburn. All anyone wants to talk about is the Blackburn one obviously but ours was just as clear. I wish someone would keep a tally of nailed on pens we haven't been given this season, must be four or five now, surely?

Ugochukwu. A bit clumsy in the tackle at times but pretty much bossed it last night. Clearly needs the more mobile Gallagher to get up and down to help him but is a big, physical and strong presence in the middle and he loves snapping into those tackles. Its just nice to see a physical presence in there after years of us getting bullied like a ginger kid in an orphanage. 

Badiashile. I've said it loads of times but he is a Rolls Royce of a player and is bang in the argument for best player we've signed in the last six or seven years. Big words but I rate him so highly. So calm, silky on the ball, always has another gear of pace to get back and just so effortless in the tackle. Big, strong, quick, God he is amazing. We need to find a way to accommodate him and Colwill in the same side as I rate them both the same. Both fantastic players. We are extremely blessed. Whereas we are a bit short on quality up top and in goal, we have no issues at the back. 

Jackson. Oh my goodness me. The poor kid looks haunted. Can we maybe experiment in playing him wide right instead of up front? Love the pace but he's miles off being an effective number nine for us. I initially thought his physicality would be a plus for us but he is astonishingly fragile. For such a big guy he goes to ground far too easily and gets monstered by guys smaller than him. I don't agree with the barracking he's had off some sections of the fans but it is clear he needs a loan somewhere where he can learn his trade a bit better. It sort of looks like the weight of the jersey and the price tag, the pressure of playing up top for a Prem side has got in his head. Has that Torres 1000 yard stare now. Started out great but it has crumbled for him and I feel sorry for him. I do wonder how crap Washington must be in training not to be given a runout last night ahead of him, especially given that Jackson will 100% play on Monday. If ever there was a kid who needed a mental rest, it was him. Its rare I am as wrong about a player as I was about him - I truly thought we have a real operator on our hands in the summer. Big guy, pace, power, directness, decent in the air, versatile and mobile, loves a goal, what's not to like? But then the Chelsea Number Nine curse struck and its just killed him. Sad to see, poor kid. 

Sterling. Played decently last night, scored an excellent goal, should have own a pen and could have had a hattrick. Got a fearful hammering off the fans which I think is unfair. He's our only real goalscorer and cant do it on his own. Give the lad a break. He did slow things down at times last night but he works so hard and he is entitled to make mistakes. Get off his back and let him do his thing. 

I do worry a bit that Poch is getting frustrated at the lack of backing from the fans. You sort of sense he is getting a bit annoyed with the groans and jeering and boos. I can understand it, honestly speaking. He needs the fans to get behind the lads or it makes the mistakes worse and can affect the mental state of the younger lads. Jackson is a case in point. Problem is that when we get our tummies tickled by Spurs and Newcastle and City and Brighton in the next four games, pick up no points and just get rolled over by better teams, I think it could turn toxic for him. He's under pressure after that needless clusterfcuk against Brentford and we could be in some trouble by the start of December if we aren't careful. Poch will bear the brunt of it and I sense he's not won the fans over yet, and is perhaps an avatar for their displeasure at the chaotic mismanagement from the Clearlake lads. They'll turn on him if we don't improve soon and the run of games we have coming up, as I say, doesn't instil confidence. How he (and we) need Nkunku back....

 

 

[Morgs]

I cant be the only one who sees us dropping £130m on Osimhen after a really horrible, attritional, spiteful and vastly time consuming transfer slog with that scumbag de Laurentis, only for Osimhen to magically morph in front of our eyes the moment he pulls on a Chelsea shirt. 

He goes from a mobile, versatile, all-can-do deadly finisher who scores goals for fun at the top level to the hapless, luckless, injury prone lovechild of Robert Fleck and Mateja Kezman, a man seemingly born offside, a man of zero confidence, a figure of fun and ridicule who literally couldnt hit a horse's arse with a banjo and for whom it seems almost that he is trying to collect baffling, unlikely and incongruous misses when it is easier to score for his own personal joke youtube reel. 

From scoring screamers and destroying defenders on a weekly basis, unable to miss, to falling over the ball unmarked two yards out with the keeper miles away.  

When keepers are making saves from him that they literally have no right to make, worldy upon unbelievable worldy, when the woodwork strikes number double figures after ten games and no goals and he gets snapped in half six times a game and then booked for his trouble....

Thats the Chelsea effect. 

[xceleryx]

3 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

Sadly @Sleeping Dave the club is prioritising a new striker and another CB by all abouts so we can forget about the other positions for now

Reading into it I expect they think this is Silvas last season and Forfana will never make it after serious injury. 

The way thinks work I'm expecting Harry Maguire.

 

Which is understandable because we've still got Kepa on the books and who may return next season. We're going to need to address that first, as it's also not practical to have GK1, Sanchez and Kepa all here at once. And we're certainly not going to find the sort of quality needed in the January window anyway. 

A striker speaks for itself, and I'm sure you'd agree it's a priority area of need. 

We're going to sell Chalobah most likely, who really isn't up to the standard needed anyway. If Silva departs in the summer, and depending on how Fofana is assessed, a CB isn't that outlandish of a position to target providing they're of a more established ilk. 

ST, GK and then it's a toss up between CB and AM/W depending how the cards fall. 

[Morgs]

12 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Which is understandable because we've still got Kepa on the books and who may return next season. We're going to need to address that first, as it's also not practical to have GK1, Sanchez and Kepa all here at once. And we're certainly not going to find the sort of quality needed in the January window anyway. 

A striker speaks for itself, and I'm sure you'd agree it's a priority area of need. 

We're going to sell Chalobah most likely, who really isn't up to the standard needed anyway. If Silva departs in the summer, and depending on how Fofana is assessed, a CB isn't that outlandish of a position to target providing they're of a more established ilk. 

ST, GK and then it's a toss up between CB and AM/W depending how the cards fall. 

I dont usually espouse silly money spending but striker and keeper upgrades are not the place to get shy about flashing the dosh. 

We need an elite level one of each and if that's a 200m splurge then so be it. 

We'll get 17m for Kepa, 30m for Chalobah and 10m or so for Maatsen so there's a quarter of it already. Get another 40m for Broja and we are laughing. 

[xceleryx]

2 minutes ago, Morgs said:

I dont usually espouse silly money spending but striker and keeper upgrades are not the place to get shy about flashing the dosh. 

We need an elite level one of each and if that's a 200m splurge then so be it. 

We'll get 17m for Kepa, 30m for Chalobah and 10m or so for Maatsen so there's a quarter of it already. Get another 40m for Broja and we are laughing. 

To a degree, I agree. We still need to be targeting the right profile of player that possesses complimentary qualities to what we want from each role. If that means spending big, so be it. If it can be done a bit more frugally, that's also okay. As long as the overall quality and fit is there. 

We'll see what happens and whether or not we pull the trigger in January with respects to any of our needs. 

[Morgs]

12 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

To a degree, I agree. We still need to be targeting the right profile of player that possesses complimentary qualities to what we want from each role. If that means spending big, so be it. If it can be done a bit more frugally, that's also okay. As long as the overall quality and fit is there. 

We'll see what happens and whether or not we pull the trigger in January with respects to any of our needs. 

Striker is the tougher ask isn't it? 

We need someone big, aggressive, strong and who can hold the ball up but who is also direct, great in the air and who is a calm and deadly, instinctive finisher. Someone who can create room in a congested deep block and knows how to pull defenders wide to open up room. Someone mentally hard, supremely confident in their own abilities and who wont let his head drop when he gets every single decision go against him in every game. Somebody experienced but hungry. Someone who has a b*stard streak a mile wide and who takes things personally. A winner. A horrible, merciless, no-holds-barred predator winner. 

...and since he doesn't exist we need to at least not buy someone who will fold up and sink without trace when the goals prove hard to come by. 

[Dale86]

8 minutes ago, Morgs said:

Striker is the tougher ask isn't it? 

We need someone big, aggressive, strong and who can hold the ball up but who is also direct, great in the air and who is a calm and deadly, instinctive finisher. Someone who can create room in a congested deep block and knows how to pull defenders wide to open up room. Someone mentally hard, supremely confident in their own abilities and who wont let his head drop when he gets every single decision go against him in every game. Somebody experienced but hungry. Someone who has a b*stard streak a mile wide and who takes things personally. A winner. A horrible, merciless, no-holds-barred predator winner. 

...and since he doesn't exist we need to at least not buy someone who will fold up and sink without trace when the goals prove hard to come by. 

Can't help but think of Drogba and Costa when reading your description. Proper strikers.

[Morgs]

25 minutes ago, Dale86 said:

Can't help but think of Drogba and Costa when reading your description. Proper strikers.

I actually had Costa in mind when I wrote it. God I miss that mad f**ker. 

 

[ROTG]

1 minute ago, Morgs said:

I actually had Costa in mind when I wrote it. God I miss that mad f**ker. 

 

Do you really believe Costa, Drogba and Crespo would be scoring a hat full of goals with the current squad?

You also need to remember who JM MK1 & MK2 sent packing to make the squads good enough to win the PL.