Transfer Talk Topic

[Dwmh]

29 minutes ago, east lower said:

Like him as a player or not, every manager involved with us whilst he was here picked him and we won all sorts of titles with him playing.

Well not Conte, but he was in good company there.  Conte didn't pick Oscar, Ivanovic or JT either.  

[Leo]

Funny conversation considering it was only the other day during the Spurs game I thought of Mikel and how he would calm things down, keep the ball and never lose it under pressure. One of the best I've seen in shielding it and turning. Made it look so simple.

[Dwmh]

47 minutes ago, Leo said:

Funny conversation considering it was only the other day during the Spurs game I thought of Mikel and how he would calm things down, keep the ball and never lose it under pressure. One of the best I've seen in shielding it and turning. Made it look so simple.

Sometimes I thought he'd have made a fantastic CF, receiving, holding and slipping it to an SWP or Robben as they sprinted past.
Mikel holding it up and Hazard buzzing around would have been electric.

[xceleryx]

9 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Well not Conte, but he was in good company there.  Conte didn't pick Oscar, Ivanovic or JT either.  

In fairness Mikel was competing with Kante, Matic and Fabregas for a midfield place. Kante and Matic were better fits for the same position/role. Was also in the last year of his deal and ended up leaving on a free in January IIRC. 

Oscar wasn't particularly good and we got silly China money for him, hardly a loss.

Ivanovic was 33 and washed.

JT was also 36 and at the end of his time also, with more nimble options of Luiz, Cahill, Zouma, and Christensen in the wings.

Outside of Terry, which would've been largely for sentimental reasons, I don't think there was much wrong with what transpired in relation to the others.

[Dwmh]

3 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

 Kante and Matic were better fits for the same position/role. 

Kante played a completely different role entirely all over the pitch,  though Matic did the same things as Mikel but only in a very restricted part of the of the pitch.
But yes I agree about the rest.
Ivanovic was still better than Moses and his half hour cameo at the end of the season showed he was still by far the best WB at the club.  Still Conte managed the team with those players very badly and got very poor results for a while.  So he added an extra CB and told everyone else to get the hell out of our box and mark opponents instead (running in the right places).    That did the trick and there really was no pressure on Conte to change anything else for the rest of the season.

[chiswickblue]

I always considered that Mikel, like Lampard, suffered when we switched to 4-2-3-1 instead of 4-3-3. He wasn't dynamic enough to play in a midfield two, but was perfect with two runners next to him.

His conversion to defensive midfield made sense, as like Makalele he had the skill but very little pace and couldn't shoot, so it wasn't viable to play him in an attacking position.

He's the type of player we've been needing to sign for at least 4 years, and now we may finally have sorted out this issue (but still not 100% sure on this).

[paulw66]

17 hours ago, Dwmh said:

  Still Conte managed the team with those players very badly and got very poor results for a while.  So he added an extra CB and told everyone else to get the hell out of our box and mark opponents instead (running in the right places).   

Halfway through league game 6 he added an extra CB

Perhaps our respective definitions of "a while" are a bit different

17 hours ago, Dwmh said:

.    That did the trick and there really was no pressure on Conte to change anything else for the rest of the season.

A very disingenuous way of saying, "because we stuffed everyone in sight, including a 13 game winning streak and won the league by 7 points"

[thevelourfog]

Christ, can you imagine winning 13 games in a row now? It's been hard enough to be in the lead for 13 minutes!

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

Halfway through league game 6 he added an extra CB

Perhaps our respective definitions of "a while" are a bit different

A short while true.  Actually very short because we were 3-0 down in that game at h/t.
But it was a dreadful 3 game period for a team that won the prem 2 years before, kept most of its top players and had 6 fresh players to make up for the dreadfully tiny squad of 15/16.
 

Premier League table after close of play on 28 September 2016

Pos	Team	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts
1	Manchester City	6	6	0	0	18	5	13	18
2	Tottenham Hotspur	6	4	2	0	10	3	7	14
3	Arsenal	6	4	1	1	15	7	8	13
4	Liverpool	6	4	1	1	16	9	7	13
5	Everton	6	4	1	1	10	4	6	13
6	Manchester United	6	4	0	2	12	7	5	12
7	Crystal Palace	6	3	1	2	10	7	3	10
8	Chelsea	6	3	1	2	10	9	1	10

 

 

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

A very disingenuous way of saying, "because we stuffed everyone in sight, including a 13 game winning streak and won the league by 7 points"

Not disingenuous at all.  That is exactly what I was saying we stuffed everyone in sight so even the most basic improvements were ignored.
Moses played from then on to the end of the season with his most frequent career appearances other than one season at Wigan.
Does anyone think Moses would have lasted more than 10 games if we weren't rolling everyone over?
No need to change.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Dwmh

[Mark Kelly]

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

Christ, can you imagine winning 13 games in a row now? It's been hard enough to be in the lead for 13 minutes!

Halcyon days. 😂

[Rob B]

Mikel is probably in my top 3 underrated players in the Roman era.

Big, strong, disciplined but technically superb.  

[xceleryx]

On 15/11/2023 at 10:34, Dwmh said:

Kante played a completely different role entirely all over the pitch,  though Matic did the same things as Mikel but only in a very restricted part of the of the pitch.
But yes I agree about the rest.
Ivanovic was still better than Moses and his half hour cameo at the end of the season showed he was still by far the best WB at the club.  Still Conte managed the team with those players very badly and got very poor results for a while.  So he added an extra CB and told everyone else to get the hell out of our box and mark opponents instead (running in the right places).    That did the trick and there really was no pressure on Conte to change anything else for the rest of the season.

Kante did, yes. He did however also spend a period playing as that "holder" so to speak. By large though, Matic was the one truly occupying that role itself. 

Not sure I agree with Ivanovic, he was hella rough towards the end there and you could visibly see his legs were gone. A better pure defender than Moses, certainly. As an overall package for that WB roleMoses was the better option IMO.

We won the league, not sure poor start to that first season really matters in the grand scheme of things. It was virtually the catalyst for our shift to a back three, our improvement in form and eventually the title. That said, it matters little now. I know the Conte debate ain't one I'm going to delve back into head first given I'm fully aware of where you stand (pun not intended). 

[Dwmh]

9 hours ago, xceleryx said:

We won the league, not sure poor start to that first season really matters in the grand scheme of things. It was virtually the catalyst for our shift to a back three, our improvement in form and eventually the title. That said, it matters little now. I know the Conte debate ain't one I'm going to delve back into head first given I'm fully aware of where you stand (pun not intended). 

I think you and I were his only defenders by the end of the following season.  My problems with Conte's coaching finished that first game he got his players running about in the right places.  

[kev61]

On 14/11/2023 at 04:27, chara said:

Possibly kev is coming from somewhere about my take on Mikel..... I agree with Bison and MT but I always just felt he never quite stepped up to his full potential...not far short mind but I always had that at the back of my mind.

But given he was not a spectacular player visually and his work was often under appreciated maybe that ..imho..might be relevant?

He was a player that just happened to play in a successful team.He was considered a wonder kid just like messi when they were both breaking through into  the the big time.

Mikel  was nothing more than an average player that was incredibly slow for his physique.

Just my opinion folks - nothing else to see here.

[Backbiter]

4 hours ago, kev61 said:

He was a player that just happened to play in a successful team.He was considered a wonder kid just like messi when they were both breaking through into  the the big time.

Mikel  was nothing more than an average player that was incredibly slow for his physique.

Just my opinion folks - nothing else to see here.

I never agreed with those who claimed we weren't getting the best out of Mikel and were stifling his real talent which was as a creative attacking goal-scoring midfielder (supposedly the role he played for Nigeria). His international stats do not really bear that out. He obviously lacked the pace, acceleration and shooting ability for that role, and his strength, technique and composure in possession made him a far better fit as a DM. He really grew into - and fully understood - the role, and showed great positional awareness and discipline.

[Morgs]

Everton getting ten points seems to set a precedent.

Arsenal are going to be gifted the title this season as City will get at least a 10pt deduction and we.... might be in some bother as well. 

It wont matter that we self regulated and brought the issue to the attention of the authorities instead of lying about it. They are going to be absolutely falling over themselves to try to relegate us.  The only thing that will unite this broken country of ours would be the universal acclaim and applause if we get a points deduction, and the cheers will only be louder in the "impartial" media when the deduction is big enough to see us playing Championship football next season. Its the world's biggest stitch up. Can see it coming a mile off.  The media are literally frothing at the mouth to see it. 

[Morgs]

Story about Everton all over the front page of the Daily Fail, with us and City mentioned more times than Everton are. 

There is your agenda, lads. 

"Potentially relegation inducing" says the lawyer quote. That squelching you can hear is twenty million Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool fans all getting lathered up into a Lady Chatterley style crisis at the mere prospect of it. 

Sales of Kleenex have gone up 900% since the announcement. 

[chara]

9 hours ago, kev61 said:

He was a player that just happened to play in a successful team.He was considered a wonder kid just like messi when they were both breaking through into  the the big time.

Mikel  was nothing more than an average player that was incredibly slow for his physique.

Just my opinion folks - nothing else to see here.

I think it was hype when he first came on the radar and the "tussle" regarding his signing..I expected a more obviously influencial player but in fairness he did the job asked of him.

For better or worse kev..Always something to see with your posts😄!

[Chelsea_Matt]

1 hour ago, Morgs said:

Story about Everton all over the front page of the Daily Fail, with us and City mentioned more times than Everton are. 

There is your agenda, lads. 

"Potentially relegation inducing" says the lawyer quote. That squelching you can hear is twenty million Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool fans all getting lathered up into a Lady Chatterley style crisis at the mere prospect of it. 

Sales of Kleenex have gone up 900% since the announcement. 

City will get off with a tiny fine. Given the virtue-signalling about bashing Chelsea and Roman, we will get 15-20 points deducted. It’s enough to make you want to throw up. 

[My Blood Is Blue]

We won’t be relegated, even the PL aren’t stupid enough to lose one of their biggest pulls of the global audience, however, they’ll give us enough of a points deduction to ensure European football isn’t possible and they’ll likely do it next season, once we’re more settled and ready for a push back into the top 4. The media would love to see us banished, but I’d be very surprised if it happened and if it doesn’t it means they always have that fact to refer back to whenever they want to moan about us or caveat our future successes.

City will keep it in the courts for as long as it takes for the PL to accept the brown paper envelope.

All that said, Everton will fight this and if they win that fight, then we can breathe a huge sigh of relief as that will be the precedent set. 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

All that said, Everton will fight this and if they win that fight, then we can breathe a huge sigh of relief as that will be the precedent set. 

My guess is that Everton are find wth 10 points this season - it is clearly the easiest season ever to stay up in.  Even now they are only 2 points from safety.

[Ham]

The difference between our situation and City's is that we self reported whilst City have openly gone out of their way to NOT cooperate with any investigation into them. 

Having said that however I should caveat that when I say "we" I mean TBSD.

CFC under RA committed the crime and would never have self reported or even cooperated.

Interesting to see how they approach this. 

[chara]

Are we privy to exactly what the "crimes" were?...all I have seen is a blanket report of allegations of underhand dealings but no details..anyone?

[Backbiter]

33 minutes ago, chara said:

Are we privy to exactly what the "crimes" were?...all I have seen is a blanket report of allegations of underhand dealings but no details..anyone?

The Guardian link earlier in the thread details some of the payments.  From memory they were undeclared payments involving people representing players we signed, like Willian and Christensen. Don't know the size and number of the payments or whether they were of a magnitude that would have put us in breach of FFP. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Backbiter

[Mark Kelly]

3 hours ago, Ham said:

The difference between our situation and City's is that we self reported whilst City have openly gone out of their way to NOT cooperate with any investigation into them. 

Having said that however I should caveat that when I say "we" I mean TBSD.

CFC under RA committed the crime and would never have self reported or even cooperated.

Interesting to see how they approach this. 

The Guardian have now decided that the contracts that Abramovich and Pini Zahavi were issuing were "modern slavery". 

Given that both are high profile Jews I think we can see what has rung the Guardians bell.