Transfer Talk Topic

[hallgalley]

On 21/11/2023 at 00:31, Dwmh said:

Managers under the CreamCakes  PL only

Tuchel        W3  D1  L2

Potter       W10 D8  L10

Lampard  W1   D2  L6

Poch           W4   D4  L4


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is that because we don’t talk about Bruno

[Ham]

1 hour ago, hallgalley said:

Is that because we don’t talk about Bruno

Some won't get that reference 😂

[Max Fowler]

 

 

[Blue Moon]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

 

 

Odd. I don't miss him half as much as I thought I would, either.

[Box of Tricks]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

 

 

I think he's going to miss the England squad more.

[thevelourfog]

4 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

 

 

Nice example of how strange the football press is, and how demented so many fans are.

Man seems to be getting along okay in new job, say some unknown people to some other people.

[Max Fowler]

2 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

Nice example of how strange the football press is, and how demented so many fans are.

Man seems to be getting along okay in new job, say some unknown people to some other people.

At the same time, right now the board is looking pretty good for selling Mount and Havertz TBH

[thevelourfog]

37 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

At the same time, right now the board is looking pretty good for selling Mount and Havertz TBH

Not something I have a strong opinion on right now. We don't know why either couldn't countenance being at Chelsea any longer, and their lack of desire to be here was the major contributory factor to their sale. Not any grand plan at a club level. So we don't know that there wasn't a board issue that will repeat itself later, with players we won't be so gleeful to see leave and initially struggle. Both are young players with few moves under their belt, one coming off essentially a year of injury. It's not surprising they haven't hit the ground running. And both have already achieved and won more in their careers than virtually every single signing we've made in the last 18 months. United have had their worst start in decades and are still above us!

I don't think selling either was a bad idea when it ultimately came down to it (and do think Havertz staying in the PL wasn't the wisest move, prestige and money aside), but I'd be wary of congratulating us on their sale in November. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by thevelourfog

[Dwmh]

44 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

At the same time, right now the board is looking pretty good for selling Mount and Havertz TBH

Rudiger, Alonso, Jorginho, Kepa, Mendy, Hall, Kovacic, Koulibaly, Pulisic, RLC, Ampadu, Mendy, CHO, Azpi, Kante, 
Ziyech, Emerson, Gilmour, Christensen, Alonso
Felix and Lukaku Aubangyermam gone too.

First it doesn't seem that the board made specific choices about who would go, pretty much everyone but Silva's wife wanted out.

Then to cherry pick two short term failures from such a huge list isn't proof of anything.
Neither Mount nor Havertz have ever had a season as bad as last season and neither will ever have such a bad season again.  
Mount won't have to play AM much more, and Havertz won't be the big striker up top again.
They win we are not winning.

 

Arsenal haven't been outside top 10 since 1976.
Man U not since 1990.
We were 12th last season and are 10th= now (11th equal but for Everton's points deduction)

[Backbiter]

10 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Rudiger, Alonso, Jorginho, Kepa, Mendy, Hall, Kovacic, Koulibaly, Pulisic, RLC, Ampadu, Mendy, CHO, Azpi, Kante, 
Ziyech, Emerson, Gilmour, Christensen, Alonso
Felix and Lukaku Aubangyermam gone too.

First it doesn't seem that the board made specific choices about who would go, pretty much everyone but Silva's wife wanted out.

Then to cherry pick two short term failures from such a huge list isn't proof of anything.
Neither Mount nor Havertz have ever had a season as bad as last season and neither will ever have such a bad season again.  

You've not been paying attention.

[Mark Kelly]

8 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Rudiger, Alonso, Jorginho, Kepa, Mendy, Hall, Kovacic, Koulibaly, Pulisic, RLC, Ampadu, Mendy, CHO, Azpi, Kante, 
Ziyech, Emerson, Gilmour, Christensen, Alonso
Felix and Lukaku Aubangyermam gone too.

First it doesn't seem that the board made specific choices about who would go, pretty much everyone but Silva's wife wanted out.

Then to cherry pick two short term failures from such a huge list isn't proof of anything.
Neither Mount nor Havertz have ever had a season as bad as last season and neither will ever have such a bad season again.  
Mount won't have to play AM much more, and Havertz won't be the big striker up top again.
They win we are not winning.

 

Arsenal haven't been outside top 10 since 1976.
Man U not since 1990.
We were 12th last season and are 10th= now (11th equal but for Everton's points deduction)

Both Mount and Havertz are so far having seasons as bad as last year, Havertz has been appalling for Arsenal and Mount is barely getting playing time for United, to suggest otherwise is typically "Droy".

Of course Arsenal and United to have wonderful seasons in comparison to ours that's almost a given at this stage but it certainly won't be because Havertz and Mount have pushed them both to greatness. 

[Dwmh]

1 minute ago, Mark Kelly said:

Both Mount and Havertz are so far having seasons as bad as last year, Havertz has been appalling for Arsenal and Mount is barely getting playing time for United, to suggest otherwise is typically "Droy".

Of course Arsenal and United to have wonderful seasons in comparison to ours that's almost a given at this stage but it certainly won't be because Havertz and Mount have pushed them both to greatness. 

I meant bad in the sense of (not) being part of a crap team, not in the sense of performances.
They are much better off away.

To take a "Droy"  comment about being in a team and turn it into a comment about playing well is of course typically "Mark Kelly".

The other obvious point is that one of the reasons Arsenal is having a good season is Jorginho.
To pick two out of 21 players who have left us and say they are doing badly implies the board has done well is not a very useful argument.

[thevelourfog]

2 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Arsenal haven't been outside top 10 since 1976.

Arsenal finished 12th in 1995, to our 11th. A minor point now, but it was a very big deal to the 9 year old me going to primary school in Hackney and surrounded by Arsenal fans. At the time, I thought it was as good as things got!

[Max Fowler]

Sorry, Frank is right on this one. Mudryk needs to go sooner rather than later!!!

You cannot teach a player football intelligence.

Palmer has it. Mudryk does not. He has image obsession and confidence issues.

Our worst signing under Clearlake by far so far.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Dwmh]

24 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Sorry, Frank is right on this one. Mudryk needs to go sooner rather than later!!!

You cannot teach a player football intelligence.

Palmer has it. Mudryk does not. He has image obsession and confidence issues.

Our worst signing under Clearlake by far so far.

 

Whatever we all think of Frank the player (all good) or Frank the manager (mixed),   he has always been a top media professional.
Anyone who thinks he is telling Harry Redknap his real thoughts about the Chelsea players he managed is having a laugh (as is old Harry).

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

Whatever we all think of Frank the player (all good) or Frank the manager (mixed),   he has always been a top media professional.
Anyone who thinks he is telling Harry Redknap his real thoughts about the Chelsea players he managed is having a laugh (as is old Harry).

Corroborates what we see on the pitch though Droy - the guy has no brain.

[Rob B]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

Whatever we all think of Frank the player (all good) or Frank the manager (mixed),   he has always been a top media professional.
Anyone who thinks he is telling Harry Redknap his real thoughts about the Chelsea players he managed is having a laugh (as is old Harry).

It’s his uncle, not sure why he’d lie?!

But regardless of whether Frank actually said that or not, that quote is bang on the money.   He’s all pace and not a lot else.

If he had the physical attributes of Cole Palmer’s for example, he’d wouldn’t have made it out of Shaktar Donesk’s second team. 

[Dwmh]

16 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Corroborates what we see on the pitch though Droy - the guy has no brain.

so someone making up quotes from Frank (possibly Harry, possibly someone else) had the genius idea to say Mudryk was all pace, no brain.

And you bring the quote here as if it helps us to understand.  

Just now, Rob B said:

It’s his uncle, not sure why he’d lie?!

No one is accusing Frank of lieing.  The lie is that he opened his mouth.  To Harry - as if Harry was only his uncle and not a famous media motormouth.

[I mean seriously, Frank must have one hell of a load of stories and opinions that would be dynamite in the media.  If he talked openly to Harry we'd know them all.]

2 minutes ago, Rob B said:

If he had the physical attributes of Cole Palmer’s for example, he’d wouldn’t have made it out of Shaktar Donesk’s second team. 

You could say that about half the PL.

[xceleryx]

8 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Rudiger, Alonso, Jorginho, Kepa, Mendy, Hall, Kovacic, Koulibaly, Pulisic, RLC, Ampadu, Mendy, CHO, Azpi, Kante, 
Ziyech, Emerson, Gilmour, Christensen, Alonso
Felix and Lukaku Aubangyermam gone too.

First it doesn't seem that the board made specific choices about who would go, pretty much everyone but Silva's wife wanted out.

Then to cherry pick two short term failures from such a huge list isn't proof of anything.
Neither Mount nor Havertz have ever had a season as bad as last season and neither will ever have such a bad season again.  
Mount won't have to play AM much more, and Havertz won't be the big striker up top again.
They win we are not winning.

 

Arsenal haven't been outside top 10 since 1976.
Man U not since 1990.
We were 12th last season and are 10th= now (11th equal but for Everton's points deduction)

Plenty of context lost when you just list the names of who has departed over the last 18 months. They certainly didn't all leave because of the same underlying circumstances, with some even departing before the ownership changeover concluded. There were also plenty of vocal fans who were wanting at least a good half of those, if not more, sold at some point over the last few years as well. 

I don't know about others, but when I see the list of names put in front of me there's maybe one or two players I'd have been happy to keep. Otherwise I genuinely don't think we've made any significantly bad decisions on the departure front. Of course, you can question the manner of the rebuilding process and the pathway taken, but that's a different argument and ones that's been done to death already. 

Re Mount and Havertz specifically.

Mount hasn't scored or assisted in the whole of 2023 I believe was the stat going around the other day. His drop off has been huge, and it happened well before he had made his move to United. I always said his production was inflated, but even looking beyond that he just looks entirely ineffective as a whole. His best football came playing higher up the pitch and not as a midfielder, even if he see's himself as an #8 he's experience and effectively in the role at senior level is limited. 

Havertz just looks out of sorts altogether, why Arsenal wanted him still baffles me. Has no real "best position", no real standout qualities, and remains an enigma. Kinda surprised he didn't opt to return to Germany, I can't ever see him being an effective Premier League player.

What Man Utd or Arsenal are doing as clubs is irrelevant to our own situation. Just because our low has been lower then either of there's, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to remain as such. Arsenal are several years into their own rebuild that's propelled them, while Man Utd have been pony since Sir Alex left, doing just enough to hang onto the edge of the cliff. We've got the capabilities to be better than either side in due course, so let's see how things pan out over the next few years once we've given our approach a true chance. 

 

[McCreadie]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Corroborates what we see on the pitch though Droy - the guy has no brain.

This is a pretty rotten assertion. He hasn’t had the correct education to prepare him for PL football. The next  couple of years will tell us whether he has the capacity to absorb that education or not. Notwithstanding the obvious upheaval in his life, war, family under threat etc.

[Dwmh]

12 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Plenty of context lost when you just list the names of who has departed over the last 18 months. They certainly didn't all leave because of the same underlying circumstances, with some even departing before the ownership changeover concluded. There were also plenty of vocal fans who were wanting at least a good half of those, if not more, sold at some point over the last few years as well. 

Sure - 10 could have gone in a typical 2 years.  That 23 have moved on is incredible, and surely not 23 random incidents.
There is no context lost here - there has been either a systematic attempt to clean the stables of good and bad, or there has been a consistent desire of players to get the hell out.
One is happenstance, twice coincidence, 23 is is well.....

 

15 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

I don't know about others, but when I see the list of names put in front of me there's maybe one or two players I'd have been happy to keep. Otherwise I genuinely don't think we've made any significantly bad decisions on the departure front. Of course, you can question the manner of the rebuilding process and the pathway taken, but that's a different argument and ones that's been done to death already. 

Well of course in a list of 23 there are some you would have kept, some I would have kept.  Some who would do well the next year and some who wouldn't.  The only thing you can say is that the players finished 3rd before the clear out, 12 the first season and 11th= this season (before Everton's points cut).

Whatever the Board did, it was not to highlight Mount and Havertz as good choices to sell.  They chose everyone, or everyone chose to quit or both.

19 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Re Mount and Havertz specifically.

No - not re: Mount and Havertz specifically.  Mount and Havertz are 2 out of 23 examples.  You can't credit the board because 2 out of 23 players (I may have missed a few more) that exited haven't succeeded.   In their first few months.

 

24 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

What Man Utd or Arsenal are doing as clubs is irrelevant to our own situation. Just because our low has been lower then either of there's, doesn't necessarily mean it's going to remain as such.

Wanna bet?  We ain't going anywhere for a couple of years even if there are a number in the current squad I still like.
We aren't being managed for progression.  Someone is trying to change a 44 point*  team into a 100 point team - it doesn't work that way.  You try to progress by 10 points a season, shoot higher than that and you fail.

*I know I wasn't posting here and wasn't paying full attention last season.  But when I look to see just how seriously crap we were last season I find it really hard to take it in.  It's like that place beginning with G - awful awful end of the world horror and yet everyone is pretending that nothing is happening.  Doesn't anyone take anything at face value any more?

[Dwmh]

Off the top of my head, Teams that bought Chelsea players.
Anyone notice a pattern?
 

 

 

 

[xceleryx]

30 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Sure - 10 could have gone in a typical 2 years.  That 23 have moved on is incredible, and surely not 23 random incidents.
There is no context lost here - there has been either a systematic attempt to clean the stables of good and bad, or there has been a consistent desire of players to get the hell out.
One is happenstance, twice coincidence, 23 is is well.....

We fast tracked things to a degree but it doesn't negate the underlying factors that a lot of these players had ran their course here. If anything, I commend the effort to just pull the plaster off once and for all. There's quite a few names in there who were lucky to still be at the club at the time and arguably should've been sold years prior. 

40 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Well of course in a list of 23 there are some you would have kept, some I would have kept.  Some who would do well the next year and some who wouldn't.  The only thing you can say is that the players finished 3rd before the clear out, 12 the first season and 11th= this season (before Everton's points cut).

Whatever the Board did, it was not to highlight Mount and Havertz as good choices to sell.  They chose everyone, or everyone chose to quit or both.

It's almost like a more experienced and developed side were able to do better than a younger more inexperienced one, barely a shock to anyone who acknowledges the vast differences in dynamics. 

Mount and Havertz made their own beds as far as I am concerned. Mount had his dad in his ear, had just put in a dismissal season, and made no attempts at any point to stress that he wanted to stay. A decision had to be made based on his contract situation and we made it, which for me personally was one that I have no issues with. Havertz simply didn't do enough, the fact we got the money we did for his is a huge win.

47 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

No - not re: Mount and Havertz specifically.  Mount and Havertz are 2 out of 23 examples.  You can't credit the board because 2 out of 23 players (I may have missed a few more) that exited haven't succeeded.   In their first few months.

I didn't, I address the wider group as whole initially. The part where I said it's hard to argue we made any mistakes with those we've left go. 

My thoughts on Mount and Havertz were due because they were both being individually addressed prior. 

If you don't wish to judge them after their first few months that fine, I trust you'll apply the same energy with those we sign as well then? Fair's fair after all. 

48 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Wanna bet?  We ain't going anywhere for a couple of years even if there are a number in the current squad I still like.
We aren't being managed for progression.  Someone is trying to change a 44 point*  team into a 100 point team - it doesn't work that way.  You try to progress by 10 points a season, shoot higher than that and you fail.

*I know I wasn't posting here and wasn't paying full attention last season.  But when I look to see just how seriously crap we were last season I find it really hard to take it in.  It's like that place beginning with G - awful awful end of the world horror and yet everyone is pretending that nothing is happening.  Doesn't anyone take anything at face value any more?

That's fine, I've continuously stated my acceptance of where we are and that it may take a few years before we're back in more familiar territory again. Maybe even in a better position then before where we can genuinely mount a title challenge, unlike how things have been since we last won the league. 

Have you stopped and considered that being a 100 point team is the goal, and that what we're doing is trying to make steps to achieve that? No where as there been any indication that we're trying to go from "44 points to 100" in one fell swoop. That's a narrative you've conjured up yourself. 

Last season is last season so I'm not going to rehash over it, however I'd rather have the nucleus of the team we have now compared to what was on offer last season. Even if it's not been entirely reflected on the league table, I'm much more content, confident, and excited with what we're building. It'll take further time and patience, but I'm certainly prepared to provide that if it helps land us in a stronger position moving forward. 

 

[Max Fowler]

8 hours ago, McCreadie said:

This is a pretty rotten assertion. He hasn’t had the correct education to prepare him for PL football. The next  couple of years will tell us whether he has the capacity to absorb that education or not. Notwithstanding the obvious upheaval in his life, war, family under threat etc.

Let's see. I have sympathy because of the war but I think we should at the very least loan him out soon.

[Chelsea_Matt]

7 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Off the top of my head, Teams that bought Chelsea players.
Anyone notice a pattern?
 

 

 

 

No offence but so what? They’re good players. Footballers move for a lot of reasons.