Transfer Talk Topic

[Mark Kelly]

22 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Doh because they might just lose 13 core players otherwise.
Because they might just end up with 20 over 21 players includinge 2 crocked before start of season and 4GKs?
Because of all the reason the team has been so handicapped at the start of the season.

pretty clear to me.

Well obviously the reasons we were so crap last season and the players played so crap are the same reasons they want to leave.

I guess you have:

Theory xceleryx:  the players were always crap even before  2022/23 and the club were right to get rid of them even if they are replaced with kids and the squad is naked this year

and

Theory Droy:  The players were always good (74 points in 21/22) but some serious issues at Cobham made them play badly last year and they all wanted out.

Theory xceleryx is the kind of theory I used to reserve for ex girlfriends.
 

What you are doing is ignoring the fact that it's entirely possible that exactly what the club wanted to happen actually happened. 

That that is not what you would have done is a valid sentiment but it makes no difference whatsoever if they achieved their aims. 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

What you are doing is ignoring the fact that it's entirely possible that exactly what the club wanted to happen actually happened. 

Well indeed - that is the greater concern.
A disaster if the club lost control.
Far worse if this was an intentional decision.

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

That that is not what you would have done is a valid sentiment but it makes no difference whatsoever if they achieved their aims. 

Do you think they have done?
As I keep explaining to xceleryx, if the club knowingly removed all the 24+ players and replaced them with 21- players and thought that that would help us progress then the board is even more stupid that I think.

My bet - the clubs are just stupid and it got out of control.  I certainly hope so.

It appears I am the optimist here.

 

[Mark Kelly]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

Well indeed - that is the greater concern.
A disaster if the club lost control.
Far worse if this was an intentional decision.

Do you think they have done?
As I keep explaining to xceleryx, if the club knowingly removed all the 24+ players and replaced them with 21- players and thought that that would help us progress then the board is even more stupid that I think.

My bet - the clubs are just stupid and it got out of control.  I certainly hope so.

It appears I am the optimist here.

 

Yes I do think they had a plan, carried it out to the best of their abilities and now have to live with the consequences. 

I wasn't exactly enamoured with the players they let go so can't really complain about it now.

The biggest mistake was probably letting Tuchel go but I don't expect he would have put up with what they planned to do so... 

[My Blood Is Blue]

@Dwmh  you do understand that it is actually possible the board had a plan, are following it and hoping it’s a success, don’t you?

You might not agree with that plan, but that does not mean that it wasn’t the plan from the beginning.

Personally, I think they did plan to get rid of a lot of the older players on extremely high wages, for various reasons and try and bring down the average age of the squad, so that they could build up a team over the next few years.

I don’t think that was quite right, as I’ve said lots of times before.

Move on the older players on high wages? Yes.

Attempt to bring down the average age of the squad and invest in younger players? Yes.

However, the key thing I think they missed was not retaining a few of the more experienced players or  bringing in any experience at all to replace all the experience that left. I’ve even offered names up in the past as to who that could have been.

So I do think this is their plan, I don’t think it’s entirely perfect and I am very concerned it won’t work out, but it is where we are.

Genuine question to you now, what do you think the plan should have been instead of what’s happened? I genuinely enjoy some of your insightful posts, but you’ve lost yourself down your own rabbit hole on this current topic at the moment and are of the belief that anyone who says the club sold the players they did, on purpose, believes it was also the right thing to do.

[McCreadie]

Quite enjoying Cesko’s YouTube highlights. Don’t pretend to have seen any more of him than that, but he’s direct, quick, good in the air, confident and can finish from outside or inside the box. Has a better goals to minutes ratio than Werner in the Bundesliga (much smaller sample size) - crikey there is some abysmal defending in that league. He’s young and perhaps a bit inexperienced but could be an option at about 1/3 the cost of Osimhen. Anyone else know much about him?

[My Blood Is Blue]

14 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Quite enjoying Cesko’s YouTube highlights. Don’t pretend to have seen any more of him than that, but he’s direct, quick, good in the air, confident and can finish from outside or inside the box. Has a better goals to minutes ratio than Werner in the Bundesliga (much smaller sample size) - crikey there is some abysmal defending in that league. He’s young and perhaps a bit inexperienced but could be an option at about 1/3 the cost of Osimhen. Anyone else know much about him?

Funnily enough I randomly  came across Haaland debut for Dortmund earlier, when he got a hat trick off the bench… the defending was a joke! I wouldn’t trust any strikers numbers over there (apart from Haaland, who is a freak). 

[Dwmh]

12 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Genuine question to you now, what do you think the plan should have been instead of what’s happened? I genuinely enjoy some of your insightful posts, but you’ve lost yourself down your own rabbit hole on this current topic at the moment and are of the belief that anyone who says the club sold the players they did, on purpose, believes it was also the right thing to do.

Well objective No 1 for any club is to have 22-24 fit active players at the start of the season excluding GK4+ and long term injured, and any U21 who has not started 20 PL games yet.

Objective 2 is to balance  the squad - young legs vs experience, defenders vs attackers, technique vs energy, even left footers against right footers and enough height to defend set pieces.

Objective 3 is to do it with the best players possible on your budget.  In that order.

We seem to have gone for Obj3 and completely ignored 1 & 2 which frankly are the most mission critical ones.
[there are many clubs with more balanced squad doing as well or better than us with cheaper and probably less talented players]

Note - I don't think that our purchases have been individually bad, or our departures.  But collectively it is quite a shambles.

Obj1 2 & 3 appear to be football basics.  Ii can't think of a club that has got 1 & 2 so badly wrong before.  Clubs constantly work on getting them right
In 15/16 we had a disaster because we got Obj 1 very wrong.  But we got 2 right and had an incredibly strong core.  When Conte brought in 6 players (some back from loans) the next summer we were in a position to win the Prem (with the advantage of no european games).
Even SAF when he won with kids had strong leaders.  The kids were forcing established players out of the team on merit, not because half the squad had been sold.

The essentials of Obj 1 & 2 are so established in football that I find it impossible to believe even the Creamcakes did this on purpose.

But I should make one further point no one else has picked up on.  Baseball is an individual sport.  The team does as well as the sum of the individuals.  If Player A hits above average you can accept it if Player B cost you by being a poor fielder.
In Baseball Team performance = sum of the Player Performance.
[though no one wants to go into a season with 2 fit Pitchers]
In Football Team Balance is much more important.

I still don't think 13 senior exits and a 20 man squad with 4GKs was deliberate.  But I can see how they Fxxxed it up.

32 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Personally, I think they did plan to get rid of a lot of the older players on extremely high wages, for various reasons and try and bring down the average age of the squad, so that they could build up a team over the next few years.

Yes and it is quite feasible that the attack on player wages was part of what upset the players last season, lead to their poor performances, and lead to so many leaving.  Certainly something seems to have spooked the horses and most had come because they thought Chelsea paid High wages.
 

[McCreadie]

8 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Funnily enough I randomly  came across Haaland debut for Dortmund earlier, when he got a hat trick off the bench… the defending was a joke! I wouldn’t trust any strikers numbers over there (apart from Haaland, who is a freak). 

Understood. Although, I thought Werner actually adapted fairly well to the EPL. It wasn’t that he couldn’t rise to the level, or get himself into the position to score. His finishing just fell to pieces.

[Thiago97]

Ivan Toney…just make it happen Chelsea. £50m plus Broja.

His impact here would be huge. 

[Ham]

2 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Well objective No 1 for any club is to have 22-24 fit active players at the start of the season excluding GK4+ and long term injured, and any U21 who has not started 20 PL games yet.

Objective 2 is to balance  the squad - young legs vs experience, defenders vs attackers, technique vs energy, even left footers against right footers and enough height to defend set pieces.

Objective 3 is to do it with the best players possible on your budget.  In that order.

We seem to have gone for Obj3 and completely ignored 1 & 2 which frankly are the most mission critical ones.
[there are many clubs with more balanced squad doing as well or better than us with cheaper and probably less talented players]

Note - I don't think that our purchases have been individually bad, or our departures.  But collectively it is quite a shambles.

Obj1 2 & 3 appear to be football basics.  Ii can't think of a club that has got 1 & 2 so badly wrong before.  Clubs constantly work on getting them right
In 15/16 we had a disaster because we got Obj 1 very wrong.  But we got 2 right and had an incredibly strong core.  When Conte brought in 6 players (some back from loans) the next summer we were in a position to win the Prem (with the advantage of no european games).
Even SAF when he won with kids had strong leaders.  The kids were forcing established players out of the team on merit, not because half the squad had been sold.

The essentials of Obj 1 & 2 are so established in football that I find it impossible to believe even the Creamcakes did this on purpose.

But I should make one further point no one else has picked up on.  Baseball is an individual sport.  The team does as well as the sum of the individuals.  If Player A hits above average you can accept it if Player B cost you by being a poor fielder.
In Baseball Team performance = sum of the Player Performance.
[though no one wants to go into a season with 2 fit Pitchers]
In Football Team Balance is much more important.

I still don't think 13 senior exits and a 20 man squad with 4GKs was deliberate.  But I can see how they Fxxxed it up.

Yes and it is quite feasible that the attack on player wages was part of what upset the players last season, lead to their poor performances, and lead to so many leaving.  Certainly something seems to have spooked the horses and most had come because they thought Chelsea paid High wages.
 

I think it's hilarious that you think that the club deliberately bought injured players in Fofana and Nkunku.  

 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

I think it's hilarious that you think that the club deliberately bought injured players in Fofana and Nkunku.  

Deliberate misdirection, squads are named start September.  For some reason we didn't even name Sarr.
Fofana had already been out 2 months, Nkunku 1 month.
I'm quite sure they were healthy when they arrived at Cobham.

4 hours ago, Dwmh said:

objective No 1 for any club is to have 22-24 fit active players at the start of the season

 

2 of our older players at 23 and 26

[east lower]

There’s been a bit of chatter about Benzema and other players out in Saudi coming available - wouldn’t take any of those mentioned myself but if someone said Sadio Mane, that’s a deal worth talking about - and I despise him (red shi*e connection and his assault on ‘Dave’) but he’s a ruthless bas***d who’d add goals and an edge we don’t have.

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, Ham said:

I think it's hilarious that you think that the club deliberately bought injured players in Fofana and Nkunku.  

 

Not defending DWMH.

however both player had  serious injuries at their previous clubs.

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

Ivan Toney…just make it happen Chelsea. £50m plus Broja.

His impact here would be huge. 

Wow

another waste of money at for a championship player. 

[boratsbrother]

29 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Wow

another waste of money at for a championship player. 

He's clearly not a championship level player! He's a decent/goodish midtable to Europa League level striker, but we need to be aiming a lot higher than that with any new, expensive signings. So definitely not one who I think we should be looking at.  Also not keen on bringing dodgy characters into a team of young players. 

[xceleryx]

10 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Doh because they might just lose 13 core players otherwise.
Because they might just end up with 20 over 21 players includinge 2 crocked before start of season and 4GKs?
Because of all the reason the team has been so handicapped at the start of the season.

pretty clear to me..

"Core players" is a push firstly. 

Your solution is to extend the contracts of several under performing or declining players purely to secure a senior player quota for this season. You realise just how ridiculous that sounds right? All while having the privilege of paying out of the ass to do so in wages, meaning we'd likely be stuck with them for years to come hamstringing us further.

For someone that religiously shits on the 7 or 8 year contract lengths despite controlled wages being attached to them, I don't know how you can then turn around and virtually endorse paying players like Havertz £280k per week for the next 5 years in the same breath. 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

Not defending DWMH.

however both player had  serious injuries at their previous clubs.

I don't need it - both players had serious injuries at this club, one in early July, the other in early August, both well before the window closed.

14 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Your solution is to extend the contracts of several under performing or declining players purely to secure a senior player quota for this season. You realise just how ridiculous that sounds right? All while having the privilege of paying out of the ass to do so in wages, meaning we'd likely be stuck with them for years to come hamstringing us further.

For someone that religiously shits on the 7 or 8 year contract lengths despite controlled wages being attached to them, I don't know how you can then turn around and virtually endorse paying players like Havertz £280k per week for the next 5 years in the same breath. 

We aren't talking about a player we got a big offer for.  We are talking Ziyech who we didn't even sell, or Azpi for 2 years max.  Or Kovacic for 3.

But there is little point discussing it with you as you appear to be able to both accept that we junked almost a full team for some kids and not enough adults, and at the same time congratulate the board for doing so AND using it as an excuse for poor performance.

You got it all ways.

[Thiago97]

9 hours ago, ROTG said:

Wow

another waste of money at for a championship player. 

You should try and remember who you have discussions with oh supreme leader of the flock. When we talked about Toney a few months back, it was clear you have not watched him play, as you had no idea of  his strengths and weaknesses. In fact , you pretty much admitted you had not seen him much.

If you remember who you have a discussion with, it stops you looking like an idiot……again! 

[Bison]

16 hours ago, McCreadie said:

Quite enjoying Cesko’s YouTube highlights. Don’t pretend to have seen any more of him than that, but he’s direct, quick, good in the air, confident and can finish from outside or inside the box. Has a better goals to minutes ratio than Werner in the Bundesliga (much smaller sample size) - crikey there is some abysmal defending in that league. He’s young and perhaps a bit inexperienced but could be an option at about 1/3 the cost of Osimhen. Anyone else know much about him?

There really is. I saw Maatsen's assist yesterday and look at the space these players have to play in:

Almost half the goals I see from this league are similar to that. 

[paulw66]

13 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

Ivan Toney…just make it happen Chelsea. £50m plus Broja.

His impact here would be huge. 

Because he scored a free kick with an awful wall in front? 

11 hours ago, east lower said:

There’s been a bit of chatter about Benzema and other players out in Saudi coming available - wouldn’t take any of those mentioned myself but if someone said Sadio Mane, that’s a deal worth talking about - and I despise him (red shi*e connection and his assault on ‘Dave’) but he’s a ruthless bas***d who’d add goals and an edge we don’t have.

We need a CF much more than we need another wide man. Benzema would transform our attack. If you add Mane, you still have the same problem at CF

[Sciatika]

29 minutes ago, Bison said:

Almost half the goals I see from this league are similar to that. 

It was a lovely ball and a well-timed run, but if you defend like that in the EPL, you would see a lot more goals. Those defenders are playing a very high line without the pace to recover, and one of the defenders (I am assuming three at the back) appears to have gone AWOL with no cover.

[Thiago97]

Well no, clearly not. I would like to think we have debated enough over the years, for you to know I would not post that cos of a free kick.

He is a rare type of  number 9 right now and people need to watch him over 90 mins to realise this. He is strong as an ox, has a lovely languid touch, wins a high percentage of aerial duals. He creates carnage for defenders going up against him. Comfortable dropping deep or wider in the play to allow space for players to run in behind. 
The only striker around who has a similar level of impact for his club has been Kane at spurs. That’s not to say the likes of Salah , Haaland etc etc are not betting players with better numbers. Clearly they are. However, in terms of impact across all areas off the pitch, the confidence and leadership  having him in the team that flows through to his teammates . The only striker I can think of in recent times that has this aura is Kane. Toney at Chelsea can have Drogba level impact. 
People need to ignore all the back story that surrounds him and watch him. 
 

Edit - This was a response to Paulw66 for which I forgot to quote

Edited January 21 by Thiago97

[thevelourfog]

18 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Note - I don't think that our purchases have been individually bad, or our departures.  But collectively it is quite a shambles.

This is it. There's been a lot of fairly pointless debate about specifics on our transfer business that misses the wood for the trees. Similar to some of the dissection of some of our games, chances missed, goals conceded etc. At a certain point the less nuanced but more instructive pattern is really what you need to pay attention to. And particularly with individual transfers, where there is a whole industry dedicated to making and backing up stories about why player X won't sign a new deal or player Y has been sold.

Edited January 21 by thevelourfog

[ROTG]

9 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

You should try and remember who you have discussions with oh supreme leader of the flock. When we talked about Toney a few months back, it was clear you have not watched him play, as you had no idea of  his strengths and weaknesses. In fact , you pretty much admitted you had not seen him much.

If you remember who you have a discussion with, it stops you looking like an idiot……again! 

No idiot here 

just factual that Toney is already 27 and had one good season in the PL which is on par with Patrick Bamford at Leeds. 
 

whereas the club have an already made and proven PL striker who scores a hat full of goals season after season at the top level and is sent to Coventry 

 

signing toney is not even an upgrade on Jackson except he would cost three times as much. Let him go to the arse. 

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Benzema would transform our attack.

Absolutely as a short term answer

He could be another Giroud 

however reality is wages and the club’s current policy.