Mark Kelly Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Max Fowler said: No we should have built the team around him. It was clear when we sacked Tuchel we didn't give a toss about keeping what was working - Kovacic should have been given a new lucrative contract and made to feel an absolutely key player in the team. But the board didn't give a f' and had their project in mind. Of course now as people do on here - the history of our older successful players is totally rewritten after the fact "They never did anything anyway." But the simple fact is we got rid of Jorghinho, Kovacic and Kante for a combined 37 million and replaced them with Enzo and Caicedo for 223 million and got worse 😂😂😂 Do me a favour Max, I'm a bit old and forgetful and not as computer savvy as you youngsters Can you list the goals and assists he made in midfield on his tenure with us? I remember a belter against Liverpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chara Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 22 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: Do me a favour Max, I'm a bit old and forgetful and not as computer savvy as you youngsters Can you list the goals and assists he made in midfield on his tenure with us? I remember a belter against Liverpool. Great goal against Luton..his once a season'ish shot (at Chelsea) that didn't endanger fans behind the goal at upper levels! Fair does he's doing ok at Citeh surrounded by top players but imho not quite good enough to carry the role otherwise..see KDB and the difference..unfair comparision in some ways but it is at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Just now, chara said: Great goal against Luton..his once a season'ish shot (at Chelsea) that didn't endanger fans behind the goal at upper levels! Fair does he's doing ok at Citeh surrounded by top players but imho not quite good enough to carry the role otherwise..see KDB and the difference..unfair comparision in some ways but it is at the top. I thought he was quite a good player to be honest , rarely gave the ball away but I don't believe at his age he was one to build the side around , I expect the stats when Max comes back to us will surely prove me wrong though , like most things. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My Blood Is Blue Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Max Fowler said: No we should have built the team around him. It was clear when we sacked Tuchel we didn't give a toss about keeping what was working - Kovacic should have been given a new lucrative contract and made to feel an absolutely key player in the team. But the board didn't give a f' and had their project in mind. Of course now as people do on here - the history of our older successful players is totally rewritten after the fact "They never did anything anyway." "Good riddance if he wanted to leave" Blah blah blah But the simple fact is we got rid of Jorghinho, Kovacic and Kante for a combined 37 million and replaced them with Enzo and Caicedo for 223 million and got worse 😂😂😂 I was a big fan of Kovacic, I know not everyone rated him as highly, but he was a really solid player for us, but I don't think he was the type of player to build a team around. I also think that is a bit irrelevant as it felt like he wanted out, for whatever reason. Your last point is a bit disingenuous, as all 3 of those players had 1 year or less on their contracts and Kante and Jorginho were in their 30s, so had little transfer value. Kante was also struggling with fitness and couldn't keep up with this league anymore. I do think we, ideally should have kept one of the 3 though and Kovacic was the one I was calling to stay, but as I said above, he didn't appear to want to be here. The other thing to keep in mind is that a large part of the cost of bringing in Enzo and Caicedo is potential. It's very possible that under a new manager, the two of them start to click and if they do and reach their potential, it will look like an incredibly smart move by the owners as we'll have a very good midfield pair in place for many many years. I'm not saying this will happen, but you can see the thinking behind it. For me the signing of Enzo and Caicedo isn't the issue, the bigger problem was signing Ugochukwu instead of signing an experienced midfielder to add to the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 55 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: Do me a favour Max, I'm a bit old and forgetful and not as computer savvy as you youngsters Can you list the goals and assists he made in midfield on his tenure with us? I remember a belter against Liverpool. Would you say the same about Kante? Makelele? Essien? Guy was a machine and you are just using your strange "our old players were all crap" logic to deny that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Just now, Max Fowler said: Would you say the same about Kante? Makelele? Essien? Guy was a machine and you are just using your strange "our old players were all crap" logic to deny that! Out of curiosity I looked up his stats just to see if my alleged " our old players were all crap" radar was incorrect 204 games 6 goals 13 assists As a deep lying midfielder you don't get a lot of chances to do much at the sharp end Cesc Fabregas for example 192 games 22 goals 51 assists Fabregas wasn't crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, Max Fowler said: No we should have built the team around him. It was clear when we sacked Tuchel we didn't give a toss about keeping what was working - Kovacic should have been given a new lucrative contract and made to feel an absolutely key player in the team. But the board didn't give a f' and had their project in mind. You are aware he had one year left on his contract and went to Man City? Your also aware that there was a period of time when we weren't allowed to pay the kit man let alone extend players contracts? 1 hour ago, Max Fowler said: Of course now as people do on here - the history of our older successful players is totally rewritten after the fact "They never did anything anyway." "Good riddance if he wanted to leave" Blah blah blah You'd have to show me these posts Max as almost everyone on here liked Kovacic. I'm more and more convinced your Prescott 1 hour ago, Max Fowler said: But the simple fact is we got rid of Jorghinho, Kovacic and Kante for a combined 37 million and replaced them with Enzo and Caicedo for 223 million and got worse 😂😂😂 Did we actually get worse? We were absolutely shocking last season with those three. There's not a single person on here, don't care what they claim now, that wouldn't have swapped Enzo and Caicedo for Jorghinho and Kante. Not one. The fact that they haven't lived up to expectations is on the managers. Really, really don't understand why I have to keep repeating this on a Chelsea forum. Lampard - Tuchel - Potter with pretty much the same players. Lampard 42 % win ratio 1.52PPG Tuchel 63% win ratio 2.08PPG Potter 38% win ration 1.42PPG The difference is astronomical, more than I remembered. The difference a proper manager makes, regardless of everything else is there for us to all see. We've literally lived it the past few years yet still some don't see it. Pochettino is nowhere near good enough as a manager, it's impossible to judge the players based on their performances under him. Edited February 28 by martin1905 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 16 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said: I was a big fan of Kovacic, I know not everyone rated him as highly, but he was a really solid player for us, but I don't think he was the type of player to build a team around. I also think that is a bit irrelevant as it felt like he wanted out, for whatever reason. Your last point is a bit disingenuous, as all 3 of those players had 1 year or less on their contracts and Kante and Jorginho were in their 30s, so had little transfer value. Kante was also struggling with fitness and couldn't keep up with this league anymore. I do think we, ideally should have kept one of the 3 though and Kovacic was the one I was calling to stay, but as I said above, he didn't appear to want to be here. The other thing to keep in mind is that a large part of the cost of bringing in Enzo and Caicedo is potential. It's very possible that under a new manager, the two of them start to click and if they do and reach their potential, it will look like an incredibly smart move by the owners as we'll have a very good midfield pair in place for many many years. I'm not saying this will happen, but you can see the thinking behind it. For me the signing of Enzo and Caicedo isn't the issue, the bigger problem was signing Ugochukwu instead of signing an experienced midfielder to add to the squad. Incredibly smart? I love them both but we blew 250 million on them. We paid way way way too much. Also it's a bit much when Kovacic's output is being questioned and they add nothing to the squad in terms of goals and assists. I like them both - I am just making a point. It makes no sense that you are saying we should have added another experienced midfielder when we could have just kept the decent ones we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Max Fowler said: TRUTH! Is this a joke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 18 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Would you say the same about Kante? Makelele? Essien? Then why use a clip of Kovaicic scoring against Luton to try and prove a point god this is painful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, martin1905 said: You'd have to show me these posts Max as almost everyone on here liked Kovacic. I'm more and more convinced your Prescott Did we actually get worse? We were absolutely shocking last season with those three. You are taking everything out of context Martin. The context in which we signed them, their place in the squad. The context in which the old players existed. If you don't stop with the personal jibes I will stop responding / debating with you. Your choice 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 30 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Incredibly smart? I love them both but we blew 250 million on them. it goes up every week I'm sure if we lose tonight, we will be wondering why we spent 300m on these 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My Blood Is Blue Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 45 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Incredibly smart? I love them both but we blew 250 million on them. We paid way way way too much. Also it's a bit much when Kovacic's output is being questioned and they add nothing to the squad in terms of goals and assists. I like them both - I am just making a point. It makes no sense that you are saying we should have added another experienced midfielder when we could have just kept the decent ones we have. Jorginho - yes, we could have kept him, but he was gone before we even got to the summer. Kante - why would we have? He was injured more than he was fit and could no longer deal with the demands of the PL. Kovacic - as I said, he wanted out. Jorginho went first, so when we got to the summer it was Kante and Kovacic and I’ve explained why they went (IMO), which meant we had a gap for an experienced midfielder, but instead we signed Ugochukwu, which as I said was the mistake. I also explained that I think we should have kept 1 of them and it would have been Kovacic, but he wanted out, so therefore me suggesting we should have signed an experienced midfielder for that place in the squad, does in fact make sense, as I don’t believe we ‘could have just kept the decent ones we had’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 48 minutes ago, paulw66 said: Then why use a clip of Kovaicic scoring against Luton to try and prove a point god this is painful The point was reposting what the guy said - we should never have sold Kovacic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 59 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: Out of curiosity I looked up his stats just to see if my alleged " our old players were all crap" radar was incorrect 204 games 6 goals 13 assists As a deep lying midfielder you don't get a lot of chances to do much at the sharp end Cesc Fabregas for example 192 games 22 goals 51 assists Fabregas wasn't crap Different players. Fabregas is a generational creator. Of course better than Kovacic at that. Do Enzo or Caicedo have that record? Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 20 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said: Jorginho - yes, we could have kept him, but he was gone before we even got to the summer. Kante - why would we have? He was injured more than he was fit and could no longer deal with the demands of the PL. Kovacic - as I said, he wanted out. Jorginho went first, so when we got to the summer it was Kante and Kovacic and I’ve explained why they went (IMO), which meant we had a gap for an experienced midfielder, but instead we signed Ugochukwu, which as I said was the mistake. I also explained that I think we should have kept 1 of them and it would have been Kovacic, but he wanted out, so therefore me suggesting we should have signed an experienced midfielder for that place in the squad, does in fact make sense, as I don’t believe we ‘could have just kept the decent ones we had’. The basic mistake I think you are making is coming up with logical reasons why all of them couldn't have stayed. Kante couldn't have stayed because of X, Jorginho because of Y, Kovacic because of Z. Same argument is made with their quality - Kante was crap because of X, Jorginho because of Y, Kovacic because of Z. The broader context is the important thing - we shouldn't have sold all of them all at once. We shouldn't have sold so many experienced players - we shouldn't have moved so quickly. Or, I'll give you that then, if we sold them we should have replaced them with experienced players. The fact of the matter is this project doesn't value or care about experienced players. It sees them as a liability. We could have put an arm around them, built the team around them, or brought new ones in. It's amazing to see intelligent posters effectively argue that we don't need experience and that our midfield is fine - it's all the manager's fault. (not saying you @My Blood Is Blue) It's completely controversial to say we are devoid of experience and have moved too quickly - complete common sense and I am in line with the vast majority of Chelsea fans, yet we have a vocal few on here who are acting like it is the most outrageous proposition of all time that experience could be the problem. It's very strange indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Different players. Fabregas is a generational creator. Of course better than Kovacic at that. Do Enzo or Caicedo have that record? Nope. They haven't played enough yet have they? I think Enzo played less than 20 games for Benfica before we bought him for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Just now, Mark Kelly said: They haven't played enough yet have they? I think Enzo played less than 20 games for Benfica before we bought him for example. I think you just accidentally proved my point Mark 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 3 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: I think you just accidentally proved my point Mark 😄 I don't think so. Your point keeps changing whenever anyone pulls you up. Incidentally, why do all of your posts include references to other members? Why can't you make a point and move on? Why are you so obsessed with people siding with you and other people being wrong all of the time? You're in imaginary battles on all fronts. It's really annoying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Just now, Max Fowler said: The basic mistake I think you are making is coming up with logical reasons why all of them couldn't have stayed. Kante couldn't have stayed because of X, Jorginho because of Y, Kovacic because of Z. Same argument is made with their quality - Kante was crap because of X, Jorginho because of Y, Kovacic because of Z. The broader context is the important thing - we shouldn't have sold all of them all at once. We shouldn't have sold so many experienced players - we shouldn't have moved so quickly. Or, I'll give you that then, if we sold them we should have replaced them with experienced players. The fact of the matter is this project doesn't value or care about experienced players. It sees them as a liability. We could have put an arm around them, built the team around them, or brought new ones in. It's amazing to see intelligent posters effectively argue that we don't need experience and that our midfield is fine - it's all the manager's fault. (not saying you @My Blood Is Blue) It's completely controversial to say we are devoid of experience and have moved too quickly - complete common sense and I am in line with the vast majority of Chelsea fans, yet we have a vocal few on here who are acting like it is the most outrageous proposition of all time that experience could be the problem. It's very strange indeed. Youre making it up to suit your own agenda now Max. Nobody said Kante was crap, Kante wouldn't sign a new contract so we sold him. Kovacic wanted to leave and wouldn't have been much of a loss had we been luckier with injuries. Most people here liked Jorginho but he was very slow, I remember posting myself that we generally played better with him in the side but he was deemed expendable by the powers that be. You need to take a step back and get on board with the idea that me, Ham, Martin, Chara etc aren't responsible for who we buy and sell just because we don't share the exact same opinion as you. It's a nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 2 minutes ago, Ham said: I don't think so. Your point keeps changing whenever anyone pulls you up. Incidentally, why do all of your posts include references to other members? Why can't you make a point and move on? Why are you so obsessed with people siding with you and other people being wrong all of the time? You're in imaginary battles on all fronts. It's really annoying. I am just trying to describe the fact that I am writing alone here and noone is agreeing with me - I have about 5 people saying the same thing but ironically the thing that they are saying is in my understanding not in line with the broader fanbase. I feel I have the less extreme position. If you find the conversation with me that annoying Ham, maybe don't get involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 23 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: I am just trying to describe the fact that I am writing alone here and noone is agreeing with me - I have about 5 people saying the same thing but ironically the thing that they are saying is in my understanding not in line with the broader fanbase. I feel I have the less extreme position. If you find the conversation with me that annoying Ham, maybe don't get involved? Nobody agreeing with you? Well that makes you A visionary Don't be swayed by others stick with your own opinions then you can rise or fall with those and not someone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea_Matt Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 This place 🤣🤣🤣 I love it 🥰🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 55 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: You need to take a step back and get on board with the idea that me, Ham, Martin, Chara etc aren't responsible for who we buy and sell just because we don't share the exact same opinion as you. It's a nonsense. Don't bring @chara into this! He's always been a diplomat at heart. Honestly it's incredible Mark how you can just say these players who won big trophies for us were either not that great, or we couldn't do anything to keep them. Absolutely astounding logic given our position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 6 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Don't bring @chara into this! He's always been a diplomat at heart. Honestly it's incredible Mark how you can just say these players who won big trophies for us were either not that great, or we couldn't do anything to keep them. Absolutely astounding logic given our position. And again you're making things up that I didn't say for effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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