Transfer Talk Topic

[Chelsea_Matt]

35 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Because the recruitment team of the above are aligned with the coaches wishes to an extent. 
 

Was not making the top 4 with a bag of dolly mixtures the reason poch got pumped? Or is it more likely he identified short falls and the players needed to take the club to the next level, which were not part of the TBSD script. 

I think there was an element of Poch having had enough tbh. 🧨🧨🧨

[chara]

On 23/08/2023 at 03:59, Morgs said:

Interesting points in amongst the sniping. 

I read with interest the views held by some members here regarding the planning of the club's moves and how, in the first part of the transfer window things all made sense but in the latter part there have been a few moves that make no sense. 

I am inclined to agree to some extent. I thought while I am waiting for my meeting I might look at the decisions the club has made this summer and see how many make sense and how many are an anathema. I'd have maybe looked at last Jan and last Summer as well but the issue with doing previous windows is that hindsight is always 20/20, and the club may not have had the facts in front of them at the time that we do now. Maybe one to revisit later on if this proves a useful exercise. 

Lets look at it chronologically instead of dividing up by ins and outs as this makes more sense in terms of logic. We wont include the players like Castillo, Haigh, Adegoke and the rest who were released. 

1st July 2023

OUT Xavier Simons, loan to Hull City (loan, no issue, makes sense)

OUT Charlie Webster loan to Heerenveen (loan, no issue, makes sense)

OUT Sami Tlemkani permanent to AEK Athens, free (sale, wasn't going to make it at Chelsea)

OUT Ethan Wady permanent to Millwall, free (sale, wasn't going to make it at Chelsea)

OUT Dujon Sterling permanent to Rangers, free (sale, wasn't going to make it at Chelsea)

OUT Sam McClelland permanent to St Johnstone, free (sale, wasn't going to make it at Chelsea)

OUT Ngolo Kante permanent to Al-Ittihad, free (contract ended, he wanted to go)

OUT Brian Fiabema permanent to Real Sociedad, free (sale, wasn't going to make it at Chelsea)

OUT Nathan Baxter permanent to Bolton, free (sale, wasn't going to make it at Chelsea)

OUT Derrick Abu permanent to Southampton, free (sale, wasn't going to make it at Chelsea)

OUT RLC permanent to Milan, 16m (wanted to play and wasn't going to get in the side this season)

OUT Eduard Mendy permanent to Al Ahli, 18.5m (not good enough)

OUT Kalidou Koulibaly permanent to Al Hilal, 23m (wanted to play and wasn't going to get in the side this season)

OUT Mateo Kovacic permanent to Man City, 29.1m (time for a change, was a great fee)

OUT Kai Havertz permanent to Arsenal, 75m (time for a change, not good enough and was an amazing fee)

IN Diego Moreira, permanent from Benfica, free (exciting youngster, will go out on loan again)

IN Alex Matos, permanent from Norwich, free (exciting youngster, will go out on loan again)

IN Nicholas Jackson permanent from Villareal, 37m (great signing)

IN Christopher Nkunku permanent from Red Bull Leipzig, 60m (great signing)

10th July 2023

OUT Teddy Sharman-Lowe, loan to Bromley (needed a loan, no issue)

OUT Baba Rahman, permanent to PAOK, free (needed his situation resolved and a new start and endless loans)

5th July 2023

OUT Mason Mount, permanent to Man United, 64.2m (wanted to go, got a good fee)

6th July 2023

OUT Cesar Azpilicueta, Atletico Madrid, free (deserves his last payday, departs with blessings and good wishes)

11th July 2023

OUT David Datro Fofana, loan to Union Berlin (a bit raw and needed a Bundesliga loan so makes sense)

12th July 2023

OUT Dion Rankine, loan to Exeter City  (needed a loan, no issue)

13th July 2023

OUT Christian Pulisic, permanent to AC Milan, 20m (was definitely time to go)

16th July 2023

IN Angelo, permanent from Santos, 15m (very exciting youngster)

19th July 2023

OUT Ethan Ampadu, permanent to Leeds, 8.1m (clearly not fancied so fine to move, got a decent fee for him)

20th July 2023

OUT Omari Hutchinson, loan to Ipswich  (needed a loan, no issue)

21st July 2023

OUT Pierre Emerick Aubameyang, permanent to Marseilles, free (thank God for that)

27th July 2023

OUT Christos Kalogerakis, permanent to Anderlecht, free (sale, wasn't going to make it at Chelsea)

1st August 2023

IN Big Les Ugochukwu, permanent from Rennes, 27m (a hedge against not getting Caicedo or Lavia. Will likely go on loan to a Prem side to continue his development)

4th August 2023

IN Axel Disasi, permanent from Monaco, 45m (With Fofana's injury we needed a right footed centre-half and arguably one with pace and power so although we paid a big fee you can see why he was brought in)

5th August 2023

IN Robert Sanchez, permanent from Brighton, 23m (club didn't know Kepa was going on loan at that point but was rated enough to be brought in as our number backup)

7th August 2023

OUT Henry Lawrence, Standard, free (sale, club felt he wasn't going to make it at Chelsea although I'd have kept him for another year with a Championship loan as I think he has a lot of potential)

8th August 2023

OUT Angelo, loan to Strasbourg (loan out makes sense and was always the plan)

10th August 2023

OUT Gabriel Slonina, loan to KAS Eupen (with Sanchez coming in he needed a loan)

14th August 2023

OUT Kepa Arrizabalaga, loan to Real Madrid (if the player wants the move then you have to look at it but letting him go without a replacement is inexplicable and will remain so until we sign someone to take the number one jersey)

IN Moises Caicedo, permanent from Brighton, 116m (speaks for itself)

15th August 2023

OUT Cesare Casadei, loan to Leicester (loan made sense before Chukwuemeka's injury)

OUT Harvey Vale, loan to Bristol Rovers (kid needed a good loan and Bristol Rovers will be good for him)

18th August 2023

IN Romeo Lavia, permanent from Southampton, 62.1m (don't really understand it at this point)

19th August 2023

OUT Hakim Sadsack Ziyech, loan to Galatasaray (superb bit of business)

22nd August 2023

OUT Lewis Hall, loan to Newcastle (if the kid wants to go and doesn't want to stay and fight for his place then fair enough. good fee too.)

 

So from the above list we have Ugochukwu coming in August 1st, Kepa being allowed to leave on the 14th and Lavia coming in on the 18th as what I would class as "contentious"

IE: all the decisions in July and barring Big Les, for the first two weeks of Aug make logical sense and you can see why they were made. Accordingly, 100% of the contentious decisions have come in August and 66% of these - the majority - have come in the latter half of August, rising to 75% if we include Lewis Hall (I don't think it is contentious or illogical, but I can see why others may do). 

So yes, you can say there is a trend to inexplicable or illogical moves from the club as the summer has gone on. Part of this is due to the nature of the transfer window itself - you get the obvious stuff done first as these are the moves that have been in development prior to the window opening. Part of it has been a degree of "panic  moves" creeping in, forced or unforced. 

Of 44 moves in and out, in the region of 10% make no sense, objectively speaking. The Ugochukwu and Kepa questions will be put to bed once the club resolve them - i.e. a loan in the former and a proper replacement in the latter case. Failure to do either satisfactorily would be inexplicable indeed. 

Where things get interesting is the rumours and things we HAVE NOT done.  I have a list. 

 

* (Maatsen seemingly safe now Hall has gone, but) making it known that Gallagher and Chalobah are apparently for sale but not resolving things with either until it is too late to replace them if they choose to go.

* Failure to sign Olise and him going on to get a new Palace contract having apparently never wanted to come to Chelsea at all.  

* Bringing in Ugochukwu but not having a really good loan lined up for if we do sign Lavia and Caicedo, as has transpired. 

* Failure to sign a proper number nine to contest the striker spot with Jackson. 

* Failure to find a move/loan for Cucurella.

* Failure to sign a world class 'keeper to be our new number 1. 

* Failure to get Romelu Lukaku out of the club at any cost. 

 

In summary:

Charitably, we should by rights wait until the window closes before judging. Yes, we will end up over-paying for the late business we end up doing but that cannot be helped. 

What is clear to me that there are several key issues that are not easily explained and need to be dealt with by the club. I have faith they will be, but whether that happens in this window or in the coming ones is open to question.  Clearly, the accusations of "the club doesnt have a plan" or "they havent got a scooby" are wide of the mark - the point of my odd little list above was to demonstrate this is quantative and qualitative terms. They do have a plan and they do work logically. The list proves this. I believe these accusations come from a media determined to destabilise and criticise, although these doubts and inferences cannot fully be ruled out because of the six or seven remnant points above.

The club's business has been largely smart. Expensive yes, but they have gone about wholesale renewal of the playing staff in a fast, logical and decisive manner and generally it has been a successful summer. These guys do know what they are doing, with the proviso that we must take it on trust that the six or sevens issues we currently do not understand or have a satisfactory resolution on, will be resolved by the time the window slams shut. 

If they aren't, then accusations and finger pointing will continue with renewed fervour and with some justifcation. But the aggregate list of moves above does I hope demonstrate that the vast majority of the moves the club has made in and out, have logic and a sound reasoning behind them, and that they do fit within a broad strategy. We cannot see the plan, but we can get a decent impression of its facets and features based on the above. The club has trimmed the squad, moved on a lot of players who didn't want to be here and added a lot of quality in key areas. They have added pace and power and more physicality to stop us getting bullied quite so much. The average age of the squad has been dramatically reduced with young players of (we surmise/expect) a level of quality such that if they don't settle at Chelsea, we can move them on for big fees. To use a term Boehly would be familiar with, the portfolio risks have been addressed directly and the major risk factors have been reduced from catastrophic to just unpredictable/manageable.

The frantic buying is almost at an end now - we will be a much more frugal and "normal" club from this window onwards. The major surgery is all but done. Just a few final moves and we are set. I do believe that. 

On the basis that resolution of the six or seven remaining "questions" above would fall under these strategic measures, we would be churlish to suggest the club would not deal with them and is not doing so as we speak. 

Mistakes have been made and others that have been made but are not fully appreciated right now will come out this season (yes Mudryk....) but right now things are moving in a positive direction. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry to post such a long "quote" but is was such a good post by @Morgs at the time and by pure chance came upon it this am.

Worth a re read...some very telling observations.

Eerily it could be written Aug '24 with only a change of names and a repeat of the summary

.Does this mean every Summer it will be "DeJa'Vu all over again" ?

[KingThistle]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

On the flip side, we could've ended up like Man Utd where they've spent over £600m on big names and are floundering away with no real bright future on the horizon without massive upheaval again.

We're on the flipside of that comparison? Yikes!

[Bison]

1 hour ago, blueboy1905 said:

Okay Todd, we get you. Or you're just a ridiculous apologist for these pathetic owners. Clownlake could turn Stamford Bridge into a multi storey car park and lead the club into servitude but you'd be standing on the sidelines clapping like a demented seal saying everything is tip top. Have a day off.

Buying world class talent is extremely difficult for us but spending 280m on mediocre talent that doesn't move the needle in anyway is very easy. 

[My Blood Is Blue]

3 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

Are you telling me we couldn't have got a significantly better keeper for £90m? A better CB for £90m and a very good CF for £90m?

We've padded out positions which didn't need padding out, which is what I'm most angry about. I very much  supported the owners original plan,vbut imho they've completely lost the plot now and seem to be throwing vast sums of money arouund in pure desperation with little serious thinking about how to challenge City, Liverpool and Arsenal.

 

Darwin Nunez cost £85m and has scored 33 goals in 98 appearances (is a worse ratio than Jackson).

Antony cost Man United  £82million.

Lukaku cost us £97.5m.

Kalvin Phillips cost £42m and Matheus Nunes cost them £53m.

Pepe cost Arsenal £72m.

 

Of course, you can list many others that cost a lot and were a success, but money alone does not equal success. It has to be the right profile and attributes and the right mentality and personality to fit the team and culture of the club.

I do wish the club had gone out and strengthened with top class players in the key positions, however, I also struggle to list off too many players for those positions that we realistically could have got.

[Rob B]

2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Because available top class keepers, CB's and strikers grow on trees.

Not quite the same as popping around the corner to your local store for a loaf of bread.

No one's saying it is, but it does beg the question..... why bother then? 

Like, was it genuinely the plan to spend 25m euro's on a 22 year old goalie to just play Europa Conference League football?  Whilst then loaning the guy who made himself last season's number 1 who happens to be 24 y/o himself?  And then going and signing a 19 y/o for 20m euro's!!  All feels a bit crazy to me.... 

We have probably involved ourselves in c.30 transfer transactions / deals this summer.   Are we any stronger for it??    If we look at the key ones I'd say probably not....

• Sterling / Ziyech / Angelo - Neto / Felix / Sancho
• Dewsbury Hall - Gallagher
• Broja - Guiu
• Maatsen/Hall - Veiga/Wiley
• Chalobah/Silva - Tosin
• Petrovic - Jorgensen

Very obvious upgrade in attacking midfield aside, overall we have spent a lot of money to still have the same deficiencies in the same areas as last season.   It's basically player churn through an accounting lens. 

The difference will be whether James, Lavia, Fofana, Colwill and Nkunku can stay fit more than they are injured.   Would probably even go as far as saying all things being equal (i.e. Palmer, Jackson staying fit) that those five will define our season. 

 

 

[Sciatika]

Happy to be wrong but I think Thiago, Maatsen and Hall wanted to go,and Ziyech was sorted last year. I think Guiu might have a higher ceiling than Broja. 

[Bigpokey24]

he fired his agent , I also heard he  agreed to the package from  Chelsea, but the agent said no 

 

Edited September 3 by Bigpokey24

[Chelsea_Matt]

6 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

Happy to be wrong but I think Thiago, Maatsen and Hall wanted to go,and Ziyech was sorted last year. I think Guiu might have a higher ceiling than Broja. 

I think Guiu is levels above that donkey tbh broski 🧨🧨💯

[Blue Kratos]

1 hour ago, Bigpokey24 said:

he fired his agent , I also heard he  agreed to the package from  Chelsea, but the agent said no 

 

Hopefully we can try again in Jan.

[Ham]

Instantly regretting his decision

🎶😂🎵

 

[chara]

8 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

I think Guiu is levels above that donkey tbh broski 🧨🧨💯

I am on record with liking TSL...only 18/19. a way to go but always has more effect on the pitch, often unheralded, than Broja ... I think @east lower commented how the match going fans appreciated his efforts,

[east lower]

42 minutes ago, chara said:

I am on record with liking TSL...only 18/19. a way to go but always has more effect on the pitch, often unheralded, than Broja ... I think @east lower commented how the match going fans appreciated his efforts,

Definitely a trier. 

[Blue Kratos]

It's wishful thinking but if we can get a decent striker in January maybe Guiu could get a loan to get more minutes under his belt.

It's alot to ask a teenager to provide sufficient cover to a guy who at best is hit and miss and I feel we need somebody to give Jackson competition.

Edited September 3 by Blue Kratos

[Bigpokey24]

4 hours ago, Blue Kratos said:

Hopefully we can try again in Jan.

from min 4.30  ( i have a strong feeling we are going to sign him, fingers crossed) 

[xceleryx]

9 hours ago, Rob B said:

No one's saying it is, but it does beg the question..... why bother then? 

Like, was it genuinely the plan to spend 25m euro's on a 22 year old goalie to just play Europa Conference League football?  Whilst then loaning the guy who made himself last season's number 1 who happens to be 24 y/o himself?  And then going and signing a 19 y/o for 20m euro's!!  All feels a bit crazy to me.... 

We have probably involved ourselves in c.30 transfer transactions / deals this summer.   Are we any stronger for it??    If we look at the key ones I'd say probably not....

• Sterling / Ziyech / Angelo - Neto / Felix / Sancho
• Dewsbury Hall - Gallagher
• Broja - Guiu
• Maatsen/Hall - Veiga/Wiley
• Chalobah/Silva - Tosin
• Petrovic - Jorgensen

Very obvious upgrade in attacking midfield aside, overall we have spent a lot of money to still have the same deficiencies in the same areas as last season.   It's basically player churn through an accounting lens. 

The difference will be whether James, Lavia, Fofana, Colwill and Nkunku can stay fit more than they are injured.   Would probably even go as far as saying all things being equal (i.e. Palmer, Jackson staying fit) that those five will define our season. 

Because improvements, even if small, are improvements nonetheless.

Petrovic isn't great with his feet, we've seen that and it was something Maresca seemingly wanted to address, hence we went out and signed a GK that's known to be stronger at ground level. As I've said on several other occasions, it's not just about a player's overall quality but also their skillset. If you've got two similar talented players but one has a clear advantage in a specific area that's desired, 9/10 times you're gonna pick the one with the desired skillset. 

Given the challenge of finding good quality keepers, particularly one that are both strong shot stopper and at ground level, I don't mind us having several fingers in the pie in the hopes we end up with one that could potentially be our long term number one.

I don't know, I see some pretty distinct differences in those who've arrived and who've they've replaced. Now, as I said before the overall quality may not see great change but when you break down the players individually and their skillsets, the ones we've signed by large tend to fit more in with what we're after.

• Neto/Felix/Sancho is a clear upgrade across the board.
• KDH is a more technically polished player over Gallagher, even if I'd have kept Gallagher personally.
• Guiu already looks more usable than Broja, he at least works hard and is a bigger physical presence. 
• Veiga/Wiley can't comment too much on at present as I've not really seen enough of either to make a comparison. 
• Tosin adds size, height, speed and more quality at ground level over Chalobah. Silva unfortunately had his limitations. 
• Jorgensen I've expressed above why he's been signed over keeping Petrovc. 

We may not have made huge strides in terms of quality additions, but we've arguably been able to add similarly talented players who have more individual attributes or skillset that fit better with the football approach we're employing.

For years we moaned about trying to play a specific style of football with a hodgepodge of players that all had different strengths and weaknesses, then wondered why everything was disjointed or whatever. When I look at the sound in its current state we're a lot more technically gifted team, with pace in attack, and several creative options. W're not perfect by any means, and I'd still want a few areas addressed (GK, CB, CF) , but considering we've rebuilt an entire team I think we're looking at a brighter future. 

Others may not see it as such and that's their prerogative, the only true teller will be time - something that'll also require a degree of patience from us, like it or not.

[ROTG]

^^^^^^^^^

The team has gone from a winning unit with metal and heart under Pochettino in 2024, to a summer acquisition of additional trick and flicks players who have no metal or heart and collapse like a house of card when pressure is forced upon them. "maybe Todd & Eggy want their team to be the footballing version of the Harlem Globetrotter"

63pts is the bar

 

[Max Fowler]

9 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Neto/Felix/Sancho is a clear upgrade across the board.

On who?!?!

[Max Fowler]

Our first-team is like a newly-built table, hand-crafted from scratch. Some people say, "look how beautiful the paintwork is!", "look at how much more attractive it is than our previous table, and at lower cost too!" Others acknowledge it's qualities, but point out the table only has two legs, and so isn't really a functional table at all:

Table
Leg 1: Experience
Leg 2: Mentality
Leg 3: Youth
Leg 4: Talent

[Mark Kelly]

21 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Our first-team is like a newly-built table, hand-crafted from scratch. Some people say, "look how beautiful the paintwork is!", "look at how much more attractive it is than our previous table, and at lower cost too!" Others acknowledge it's qualities, but point out the table only has two legs, and so isn't really a functional table at all:

Table
Leg 1: Experience
Leg 2: Mentality
Leg 3: Youth
Leg 4: Talent

This is why we really needed a win before the International break. 

[Bison]

8 hours ago, ROTG said:

^^^^^^^^^

The team has gone from a winning unit with metal and heart under Pochettino in 2024, to a summer acquisition of additional trick and flicks players who have no metal or heart and collapse like a house of card when pressure is forced upon them. "maybe Todd & Eggy want their team to be the footballing version of the Harlem Globetrotter"

63pts is the bar

 Felix is the perfect example of this. A player the previous manager reportedly said no to several times by the way. 

[Sleeping Dave]

One thing is damn sure - Lavia will have to play a lot ahead of Enzo. In fact, I’d rather have Caicedo next to Palmer in our 4141 than Enzo… At this point in time, I think our best XI is:

Sanchez

James

Disasi

Colwill

Cucurella

Lavia

Caicedo

Madueke

Palmer

Neto

Jackson

[Ham]

2 hours ago, Bison said:

 Felix is the perfect example of this. A player the previous manager reportedly said no to several times by the way. 

Is this the same previous manager that was universally declared a talentless waster because he knew nothing about coaching players. 

[ROTG]

11 hours ago, Ham said:

Is this the same previous manager that was universally declared a talentless waster because he knew nothing about coaching players. 

One would suspect it was the coaches at Atletico, Barcelona and Chelsea (1st time) who deemed him not good enough

[boratsbrother]

On 03/09/2024 at 13:39, xceleryx said:

No idea, as it's not just about getting "better" players in those positions, as much as it is about getting better players with the right profile to fit. And players that have both the quality and the skillsets needed aren't just readily available.

If it got left to half the folks on here we'd have spent £40m on Onana last season and he can barely catch cold.

How about chucking a couple of hundred million Villa's way for their keeper and Watkins?  They may not be absolute top draw but they would both be significant upgrades of the level we need. I'd rather we spent that kind of money on two upgrades than waste it on more squad fillers like we've done.