Transfer Talk Topic

[Michael Tucker]

1 minute ago, kev61 said:

The problem is Neymar is not a titan of football.Good yes but not in the same league as Messi and Ronaldo. 

Does he have to be Kev?

[kev61]

6 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

Does he have to be Kev?

Yes he does.We don't need a player that floats between leagues  earning a fortune.

[Michael Tucker]

8 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Yes he does.We don't need a player that floats between leagues  earning a fortune.

Well there aren't many  them, are there? Ones that are up there with Messi and Ronaldo? So where do we find them, and how much do you reckon they'd cost?

[xceleryx]

12 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Did I? I specifically wrote that the one player we have on our books who may actually deserve a salary of +£200k/w is Mason Mount and hilariously he is the only player the club deem not worthy. 

He is by far the best presser we have. He is constantly being played out of position (LW/RW/LM/CM). He has played with attackers who are unable to score and ironically the best striker he has played with at the club is another academy player we tossed on the side of the road. This season he hasn't had the best of seasons, look where we find ourselves? He's been out injured and then hilariously frozen out by Potter. 

POTY both 2021 and 2022 in seasons when we won the CL, CWC and qualified for the CL the subsequent season. This year he played 1 655 PL minutes and scored only 3 and assisted another 2. 

2022/23: 1 655 PL minutes, 3 goals and 2 assists (sweet fuck all and mid-table obscurity with a shit load of shiny new toys who are shit)

2021/22: 2 364 minutes, 11 goals and 10 assists (13 goals, 16 assist in all comps) (POTY, CWC winners, FAC runner-ups, LC runners-up, USC winners)

2020/21: 2 893 minutes, 6 goals and 6 assists (POTY, CL winners, FAC runners-up, 4th PL)

2019/20: 2 874 minutes, 7 goals and 6 assists (FAC runners-up, USC runners-up))

He should have been given much a much improved deal in summer 2020. And after his season in 21/22 we should have gone all out to offer him a top contract. 

Name me one player in our squads in the seasons 2019/20 to 2022/23 more deserving of an offer of +£200k/week. I'll wait.

Imo he is absolutely pivotal to keep in the side and be played at CAM in Pochs 4231. This one will come back and bite us hard. Ten Hag must be laughing his ass off. 

Some interesting points, but not enough to warrant £200k + in my books once investigated further. 

Not arguing that Mount isn't a nice player, contrary to what it may seem I do actually like Mount a lot and think he's a good player overall, but that's just it. He's a good player, not a great one - at least for the present time. His form over the last 18 months hasn't been good, it hasn't just been this season alone so it's a bit disingenuous to link Mount not being in the side as part of our underperforming ways. He still managed the 8th most league minutes this season despite missing 10 of the last 14 leagues matches through his pelvis injury. 

His production over the years reads decently on paper but again with context applied it's not as impressive as it first appears. As I've stated before 1 goal vs the to 6 in the last 4 years. An avenge of 2 open play assists per season across his Premier League career to date. 

2021/22 - 4 of his 11 goals came vs Norwich alone. A further 2 against Southampton and Leeds, and then singles against Watford, West Ham and Everton. Not as impressive when you really look at it. Of his 10 assists 5 of those came from either a corner or a free kick, and again all picked up against the fodder/lower table sides outside of 2 vs Arsenal. 

2020/21 - Doesn't read much better. Goals against WBA, Fulham, Sheff Utd, Southampton, WBA again - all lower end sides. He grabbed a goal vs Liverpool which accounts for his solitary goal against a top 6 sides in his career. His assists again all collected against the lower end sides - WBA, Burnley, Leeds, West Ham, Palace and Fulham. 

Not going to go through the rest but you get the picture, and you can see why it's often been one of the complaints surrounding Mount. If he wants to be getting that top end contract then he needs to be doing more in the top end games. His record is quite frankly dismal against the better teams, not even including the couple of guilt edge misses he had in some of the FA Cup finals recently. 

You say he should've been given an improved deal in 2020, and then 2021/22, but by all accounts he was offered a good deal during that period and turned it down for one reason or another. 

As for how deserved £200k+ in those 2019/20 to 2022/23 periods I'd say Rudiger would be up there after Tuchel came on board. His performances and influence was genuinely top tier. I'd have Reece James in there also, arguably the best RB/WB in world football when fit. So there's two right off the bat. I'd honestly throw Thiago Silva in the mix also, an absolute pillar to our defence since arriving. 

I've no doubt that Mount would play role in a Poch team, as I said he's not a bad player by any means and certainly would prefer to keep him around then see him leave, but at the same time he's not a "keep at any cost" player either IMO. We've got Nkunku arriving and his best position is that slot just behind the striker, so one would think he'd be competing with Mount. Mount gives you more graft, but Nkunku is the more dynamic attacker. You could go out and sign SMS right now from Lazio for €30-40m and he'll give you far better attacking input than Mount at half the cost while in his prime years.I'd take Barella over Mount as well, genuine CM that is just as hard working as Mount and a better creator all-round. Maybe not quite the same level of goals, but then again Mount's record as a genuine CM isn't flash anyway. 

He's a much more replaceable player than some like to think. 

[Sleeping Dave]

21 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Some interesting points, but not enough to warrant £200k + in my books once investigated further. 

Not arguing that Mount isn't a nice player, contrary to what it may seem I do actually like Mount a lot and think he's a good player overall, but that's just it. He's a good player, not a great one - at least for the present time. His form over the last 18 months hasn't been good, it hasn't just been this season alone so it's a bit disingenuous to link Mount not being in the side as part of our underperforming ways. He still managed the 8th most league minutes this season despite missing 10 of the last 14 leagues matches through his pelvis injury. 

His production over the years reads decently on paper but again with context applied it's not as impressive as it first appears. As I've stated before 1 goal vs the to 6 in the last 4 years. An avenge of 2 open play assists per season across his Premier League career to date. 

2021/22 - 4 of his 11 goals came vs Norwich alone. A further 2 against Southampton and Leeds, and then singles against Watford, West Ham and Everton. Not as impressive when you really look at it. Of his 10 assists 5 of those came from either a corner or a free kick, and again all picked up against the fodder/lower table sides outside of 2 vs Arsenal. 

2020/21 - Doesn't read much better. Goals against WBA, Fulham, Sheff Utd, Southampton, WBA again - all lower end sides. He grabbed a goal vs Liverpool which accounts for his solitary goal against a top 6 sides in his career. His assists again all collected against the lower end sides - WBA, Burnley, Leeds, West Ham, Palace and Fulham. 

Not going to go through the rest but you get the picture, and you can see why it's often been one of the complaints surrounding Mount. If he wants to be getting that top end contract then he needs to be doing more in the top end games. His record is quite frankly dismal against the better teams, not even including the couple of guilt edge misses he had in some of the FA Cup finals recently. 

You say he should've been given an improved deal in 2020, and then 2021/22, but by all accounts he was offered a good deal during that period and turned it down for one reason or another. 

As for how deserved £200k+ in those 2019/20 to 2022/23 periods I'd say Rudiger would be up there after Tuchel came on board. His performances and influence was genuinely top tier. I'd have Reece James in there also, arguably the best RB/WB in world football when fit. So there's two right off the bat. I'd honestly throw Thiago Silva in the mix also, an absolute pillar to our defence since arriving. 

I've no doubt that Mount would play role in a Poch team, as I said he's not a bad player by any means and certainly would prefer to keep him around then see him leave, but at the same time he's not a "keep at any cost" player either IMO. We've got Nkunku arriving and his best position is that slot just behind the striker, so one would think he'd be competing with Mount. Mount gives you more graft, but Nkunku is the more dynamic attacker. You could go out and sign SMS right now from Lazio for €30-40m and he'll give you far better attacking input than Mount at half the cost while in his prime years.I'd take Barella over Mount as well, genuine CM that is just as hard working as Mount and a better creator all-round. Maybe not quite the same level of goals, but then again Mount's record as a genuine CM isn't flash anyway. 

He's a much more replaceable player than some like to think. 

Time will tell, but I think you are so wrong. Let’s see another mercenary come in, not caring about the club and not working his socks off for the cause. 

Losing Mount will be our worst decision this summer and it hasn’t even started. Abraham was supposedly also “not a great player”. £180m later and we still struggling to find a striker to replace him. £250m if we are counting Havertz… 

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

We've got Nkunku arriving and his best position is that slot just behind the striker, so one would think he'd be competing with Mount. Mount gives you more graft, but Nkunku is the more dynamic attacker. You could go out and sign SMS right now from Lazio for €30-40m and he'll give you far better attacking input than Mount at half the cost while in his prime years.I'd take Barella over Mount as well, genuine CM that is just as hard working as Mount and a better creator all-round. Maybe not quite the same level of goals, but then again Mount's record as a genuine CM isn't flash anyway. 

Once again your are making a strawman out of the above, who have Zero PL experience and are a gamble from day one, whereas MM has miles on the clock. Have you even considered that TBSD June logic of a fire sale of experienced players, leaving more than half the squad Poch is about to inherit has nearly zero pl miles on the clock, with the remaining having one or two seasons experience and you are championing getting more players from the continent with no PL experience and potentially adding more duds to the squad. 
 

Poch might be a good coach, but he is definitely not a miracle worker with the squad the club are giving him. So I would not hold your breath on a top four finish next season should the club use your logic on player recruitment. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by ROTG

[martin1905]

The Mount conversation is going round and round in circles and, no offense, is a little boring.

He won't sign a new contract and wants to leave. Simple as that. Everybody would rather he stayed but he's gone. 

We've lost far better, far more important players over the years two absolute legends this summer,  Rudiger last season. Mount is nowhere near the level of those three and nowhere near as big a part of this club.

Without knowing the ins and outs of the situation I personally have a lot more ill feeling towards Mount than I do the club in this situation. He could have signed, he should have signed, he could have been a legend, now he's going to a direct rival, one of our most hated rivals and that is just not the one.

[xceleryx]

7 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Once again your are making a strawman out of the above, who have Zero PL experience and are a gamble from day one, whereas MM has miles on the clock. Have you even considered that TBSD June logic of a fire sale of experienced players, leaving more than half the squad Poch is about to inherit has nearly zero pl miles on the clock, with the remaining having one or two seasons experience and you are championing getting more players from the continent with no PL experience and potentially adding more duds to the squad. 
 

Poch might be a good coach, but he is definitely not a miracle worker with the squad the club are giving him. So I would not hold your breath on a top four finish next season should the club use your logic on player recruitment. 

I'm not making a straw man out of anything, I'm merely showcasing that Mount is replaceable with arguably players who are better in specific areas that he provides to the team. Of course, it's not as black and white as that but it was nothing more than a simplistic showcase that Mount isn't some irreplaceable unicorn. There's plenty of players out there that can do or offer similar. Being proven in the Premier League is nice, but it's not a certified guarantee a player will excel either. 

I don't predict us to make a top four finish anyway, so that doesn't bother me. I was always of the understanding that any rebuilding process we do is going to likely mean some time out of those top 4 places. Of  course, the transfer window hasn't opened much less closed yet, so until we know what side we're going to actually have predicting where we could finish is somewhat pointless right now.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Time will tell, but I think you are so wrong. Let’s see another mercenary come in, not caring about the club and not working his socks off for the cause. 

Losing Mount will be our worst decision this summer and it hasn’t even started. Abraham was supposedly also “not a great player”. £180m later and we still struggling to find a striker to replace him. £250m if we are counting Havertz… 

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That's of no great concern to me. As I said, I like Mount and would prefer him to stay, but at the end of the day he's not irreplaceable nor worthy of an expansive contract IMO. 

Tammy is a solid enough player but still considerably limited in areas top teams need. That's why he plies his trade for Roma and not one of the elite. And even then, the initial shine Roma fans had has certainly worn off. But that's a different discussion altogether.

[Michael Tucker]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That's of no great concern to me.

Nor should it be. We're all wrong sometimes!

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

As I said, I like Mount and would prefer him to stay, but at the end of the day he's not irreplaceable 

This sums it up for me.

 

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

The Mount conversation is going round and round in circles and, no offense, is a little boring.

I'm going to do my best for this to be my last word on it. Some of what you say I agree with, some I don't. What is clear to me is that Mount is a really good footballer and we'd be in an immediately better position for him being here, but that he is not of a standing where he's irreplaceable or we'll collapse without him. We've managed the loss of far better players, and no doubt will again in future.

I suppose my biggest concern about the entire business isn't necessarily losing the player, but that my interpretation of events does leave me with worry and ill feeling about how the club, and specifically these owners, have managed personnel matters (contracts, signings, outgoings). Some dismissed the briefing that a contract was verbally agreed and then rescinded. Personally, I could really see that happening. It does seem likely to me that these owners were a pain in the arse to negotiate with at the turn of the year, and that any player trying to may have become so pissed off that they've decided leaving is better. We do need to be more sensible with wages, but the reality is that it is going to cost us some really, really good players. I think we'll see that pan out this summer with targets largely chosing to go elsewhere.

[martin1905]

15 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I'm going to do my best for this to be my last word on it. Some of what you say I agree with, some I don't. What is clear to me is that Mount is a really good footballer and we'd be in an immediately better position for him being here, but that he is not of a standing where he's irreplaceable or we'll collapse without him. We've managed the loss of far better players, and no doubt will again in future.

I suppose my biggest concern about the entire business isn't necessarily losing the player, but that my interpretation of events does leave me with worry and ill feeling about how the club, and specifically these owners, have managed personnel matters (contracts, signings, outgoings). Some dismissed the briefing that a contract was verbally agreed and then rescinded. Personally, I could really see that happening. It does seem likely to me that these owners were a pain in the arse to negotiate with at the turn of the year, and that any player trying to may have become so pissed off that they've decided leaving is better. We do need to be more sensible with wages, but the reality is that it is going to cost us some really, really good players. I think we'll see that pan out this summer with targets largely chosing to go elsewhere.

Which may well be the case with the new owners. Time will tell.

For me though, Mount should have been given a new contract long before the new owners took over. Long before the sanctions. I suppose we will never know but I find it very hard to believe that he wasn't offered a new contract, on much better terms during the Abramovich era. It is my belief that he almost certainly was and chose to turn it down, for whatever reasons, and that's up to him but it is what it is. 

[Thiago97]

It seems pretty obvious to me that so far, Mount has not really trained on from the player that forced his way into our team 4 seasons back. I say so far, because sometimes players do hit a bit of a brick wall in their progress, before they improve further in the future. 

I think there is also an argument to say we has seen a small decline. Whilst he may have a number of genuine reasons for why we have seen a small decline, those reasons/excuses don't really hold much tangible weight when you are trying to negotiate, what is likely to be the most lucrative contract of his career.

I hope he stays and I want him to stay, but based the reported numbers he wants. It's a little bit difficult to stand those numbers up, based on his performances in the last 12 months.

We should certainly be looking after our own and players who have the club in their heart. Not at any cost though.

Far too many excuses made for footballers these days. What's the problem with say 150k a week to continue playing for the club you have a positive connection with ? I would be confident Mount and the club could strike a deal on a figure in this ball park area. Is this not enough ? Does he genuinely consider this to be way below his worth and value to the club ?

If his Chelsea career to date was a reverse of what has played out, he would be entering negotiations from a position of strength and maybe be worth a much larger contract, factoring in further improvement. Unfortunately for him and the club, that is not really the situation either party finds themselves in right now.

[Holymoly]

16 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

If that is true I can feel him. Why would he sign on a lesser contract compared to James?

If you want to bring it down to stone cold data then the reason is that James is a world leader at his position while Mount is just a very good James Milner type player.  The problem with being able to turn your hand to a number of positions is that you don't end up getting known as being excellent at one of them like a Fabregas, a Hazard or a Lampard. While Mount is probably worth more to the squad as a whole he doesn't have the stats to fall back on that will define his output in the same way James does. Unfortunately heart and motivation cannot be measured on a spreadsheet.

[Sleeping Dave]

3 hours ago, martin1905 said:

The Mount conversation is going round and round in circles and, no offense, is a little boring.

He won't sign a new contract and wants to leave. Simple as that. Everybody would rather he stayed but he's gone. 

We've lost far better, far more important players over the years two absolute legends this summer,  Rudiger last season. Mount is nowhere near the level of those three and nowhere near as big a part of this club.

Without knowing the ins and outs of the situation I personally have a lot more ill feeling towards Mount than I do the club in this situation. He could have signed, he should have signed, he could have been a legend, now he's going to a direct rival, one of our most hated rivals and that is just not the one.

Forgive us for talking transfers in the transfer talk topic. How silly of us! Much more fun to hear you tell us all what a generational talent we’ve bought who happens to be the flavour of the month 😝😝😝

[Holymoly]

8 hours ago, ROTG said:

Another problem would be the club handing out low wage high bonus contracts to all and sundry, then along comes Neymar on £400k per week, to me spells more dressing room anarchy 

Could you imagine the kudos to anyone who could get him on say £100k a week for the first 20 games, £150k if he gets to 30 games then bonuses for top 4, cups etc? Basically telling the guy if you really think you're still that good then prove it.

[Sleeping Dave]

2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. That's of no great concern to me. As I said, I like Mount and would prefer him to stay, but at the end of the day he's not irreplaceable nor worthy of an expansive contract IMO. 

Tammy is a solid enough player but still considerably limited in areas top teams need. That's why he plies his trade for Roma and not one of the elite. And even then, the initial shine Roma fans had has certainly worn off. But that's a different discussion altogether.

Considering our current standing in world football and how much money we’ve thrown away on garbage, I’d say yes. He’s irreplaceable to us. Add all the other facets he brings with his game and no, I don’t see anyone who we can get that’s better than him. Nkunku? He hasn’t kicked a ball for us and is coming from a very ordinary season in the BUNDESLIGA. At the moment we are looking at a set up of Sterling, Mudryk, Madueke, Nkunku, Gallagher, Santos and Enzo in his positions. I don’t see us signing anyone of Mounts quality as those players aren’t available. 
 

[martin1905]

12 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Forgive us for talking transfers in the transfer talk topic. How silly of us! Much more fun to hear you tell us all what a generational talent we’ve bought who happens to be the flavour of the month 😝😝😝

Well, you could always discuss Mason Mount in the Mason Mount thread, or give up when you go round and round in circles for days on end, arguing the same points.

 

[boratsbrother]

Imho Mount has become very technically erratic. His first touch lets him down too often and he's become guilty of consistently over or under hitting passess in crucial areas in and around the box. His shooting too can be all over the place. When he's on top form he's shown he can be top notch in all those areas of the game, but his percentages have simply not been high enough. The same can obviously be said for the rest of our midfield and attackers.

Is down to lack of concentration, nerves, or simply just down to being one of those players who  cannot consistently produce at a very high level?

[martin1905]

Liverpool sign Mac Allister. Rice will be allowed to leave, hopefully Arsenal are stupid enough to pay the fee West Ham want and we stay well clear. Mount is off to United. 

We sign Caicedo. Happy days.

[Bob Singleton]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

Liverpool sign Mac Allister. Rice will be allowed to leave, hopefully Arsenal are stupid enough to pay the fee West Ham want and we stay well clear. Mount is off to United. 

We sign Caicedo. Happy days.

 

 

[Chelsea_Matt]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

Liverpool sign Mac Allister. Rice will be allowed to leave, hopefully Arsenal are stupid enough to pay the fee West Ham want and we stay well clear. Mount is off to United. 

We sign Caicedo. Happy days.

You don’t want Rice? 🍚🙃

[Sciatika]

Not sure if helpful, but London is Blue "Keep Sell Loan" Podcasts:

Attackers:  pod.fo/e/182251

Midfielders: pod.fo/e/181dc9

GK and Defenders: pod.fo/e/1819db

Each is over an hour long, though. I can't say I agree with quite a lot of their conclusions.

[Sleeping Dave]

2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

Well, you could always discuss Mason Mount in the Mason Mount thread, or give up when you go round and round in circles for days on end, arguing the same points.

 

It’s a transfer the club is widely reported to make. Over the last four seasons he’s been if not our best player definitely in the top three. Forgive me for having an opinion about what the club is about to do. But not to worry, I’ll keep quiet and let you tell us all what world class players we are about to sign instead. Because that never gets boring does it? 

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

We sign Caicedo. Happy days.

Another over rated and priced Brighton player. Personally I would not give that club the time of day after last seasons debacle of shafting a not so bright new owner, with two bob players, coaches and recruitment staff.