Transfer Talk Topic

[paulw66]

2 hours ago, ROTG said:

The team would have finished in the top 6 and more likely top 4 under TT even without the January recruitment debacle from the TBSD. 

We lost to Southampton and Leeds (3-0) under Tuchel. Two teams that were relegated.  We also lost to Zagreb, who managed one more point in the other 5 games.

To pretend we were on course for anything bar a disaster before he got fired is disingenuous at best. 

40 minutes ago, Bison said:

Mount was in poor form long before the injuries. 

Always wonder why people just bat away poor form as nothing to worry about and perhaps not the beginning of a longer trend or even something worth keeping an eye on. We should know better than most. 

Played a silly amount of games over a two year period.

A nice gentle season without Europe would be ideal for him (and us)

[Max Fowler]

19 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

We lost to Southampton and Leeds (3-0) under Tuchel. Two teams that were relegated.  We also lost to Zagreb, who managed one more point in the other 5 games.

To pretend we were on course for anything bar a disaster before he got fired is disingenuous at best. 

Absolute nonsense of the highest order Paul.

We were 6th when he left - fine we were on poor form do you think Boehly made it easy for him? Boehly should have come in and said "TT - you've had an impossible summer, tell me exactly - what do you need to succeed?" But no Boehly came with all his ideas, whiteboard meetings and bs WhatsApp groups - wanted a manager who did more than just coach on the pitch and could collaborate with his stupid conversations about Ronaldo, Gordon, blah blah blah.

If the City owners had come in when Boehly did - they would have realised everything Tuchel went through over the summer and given him some f'in space. And guess what - Liverpool have gone through similar runs under Klopp and they kept him because he's elite and he gives the club identity and they are all the better for it.

So good luck to Poch I say - I am optimistic about rumours that he has laid down the law with Boehly because if he hasn't he will get eaten alive by Boehly's all-consuming ego.

Tuchel got fired because he didn't allow Boehly to come in the dressing room at half-time with his teenage kids to give a tour of the real Stamford Bridge matchday experience.

Completely embarrassing and Boehly now admits he made a critical error in firing Tuchel when he did. More humble pie Boehly but the idea that we needed to fire Tuchel when he did, given everything that has happened since, is a straight up joke.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Max Fowler

[paulw66]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

Absolute nonsense of the highest order Paul.
 

nonsense? I just quoted facts. 

 

[Max Fowler]

Just now, paulw66 said:

nonsense? I just quoted facts. 

 

On course for a disaster? The double standards is too much to take.

On the one hand our squad needs a complete and utter rebuild from top to bottom and on the other Tuchel was having a disaster taking this completely broken squad to sixth before he was fired.

And in May we would have been in the relegation Zone if it wasn't the points earned by Tuchel in his first 6 games. LOL.

[thevelourfog]

18 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

We lost to Southampton and Leeds (3-0) under Tuchel. Two teams that were relegated.  We also lost to Zagreb, who managed one more point in the other 5 games.

To pretend we were on course for anything bar a disaster before he got fired is disingenuous at best. 

Under Tuchel, 10 points from 6 games. Average that over 38 games, 64 points. Would have got 6th place, and potentially higher depending on who those points were against.

After Tuchel, 34 points from 32 games. Average that over 38 games, 42 points. Would have got 13th place, again potentially lower depending on where points came from.

It is not pretending, and it is not disingenuous. It of course isn't also foolproof, but it is the best indication we have. Anyone suggesting we'd have been absolutely fine, at least as good as up until then, under Tuchel is wrong. Anyone who doesn't think Tuchel would have pulled better results and a better finish out of these players ... Honestly cannot fathom their thinking, it's bonkers.

[paulw66]

2 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Under Tuchel, 10 points from 6 games. Average that over 38 games, 64 points. Would have got 6th place, and potentially higher depending on who those points were against.

After Tuchel, 34 points from 32 games. Average that over 38 games, 42 points. Would have got 13th place, again potentially lower depending on where points came from.

It is not pretending, and it is not disingenuous. It of course isn't also foolproof, but it is the best indication we have. Anyone suggesting we'd have been absolutely fine, at least as good as up until then, under Tuchel is wrong. Anyone who doesn't think Tuchel would have pulled better results and a better finish out of these players ... Honestly cannot fathom their thinking, it's bonkers.

This is where cherry picking a small sample doesn't work.

6 games, 4 of which were against the teams who ended up in the bottom 4 places. (the other two finished 8th and 14th)

Of course taking a PPG when you have played the worst sides changes the view somewhat 

3 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

. Anyone who doesn't think Tuchel would have pulled better results and a better finish out of these players ... 

That's not what I said.

I was challenging the statement "we would have got top 6"

Edited June 15, 2023 by paulw66

[Mark Kelly]

4 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Absolute nonsense of the highest order Paul.

We were 6th when he left - fine we were on poor form do you think Boehly made it easy for him? Boehly should have come in and said "TT - you've had an impossible summer, tell me exactly - what do you need to succeed?" But no Boehly came with all his ideas, whiteboard meetings and bs WhatsApp groups - wanted a manager who did more than just coach on the pitch and could collaborate with his stupid conversations about Ronaldo, Gordon, blah blah blah.

If the City owners had come in when Boehly did - they would have realised everything Tuchel went through over the summer and given him some f'in space. And guess what - Liverpool have gone through similar runs under Klopp and they kept him because he's elite and he gives the club identity and they are all the better for it.

So good luck to Poch I say - I am optimistic about rumours that he has laid down the law with Boehly because if he hasn't he will get eaten alive by Boehly's all-consuming ego.

Tuchel got fired because he didn't allow Boehly to come in the dressing room at half-time with his teenage kids to give a tour of the real Stamford Bridge matchday experience.

Completely embarrassing and Boehly now admits he made a critical error in firing Tuchel when he did. More humble pie Boehly but the idea that we needed to fire Tuchel when he did, given everything that has happened since, is a straight up joke.

You really have bought into the narrative about Boehly haven't you .

The media have been reinforcing the dumb yank stereotype for months and months.

He has undoubtedly made mistakes , especially in the early days of his reign where due to the sanctions he inherited a club with no foundation and no staff and first team players already out of contract and leaving that needed replacement immediately .

Since then he has appointed people to fill the roles and has cut his own involvement to 20% .

We all probably agree that getting rid of Tuchel was the biggest mistake even though things were getting worse and not better and replacing him with Potter was in hindsight also a major catastrophe but I don't think he can be blamed too much for that bit as he obviously listened to outside influences who bigged Potter up beyond his capabilities . 

But Tuchel absolutely did not get fired because he wouldn't let Boehly and his entourage into the dressing room ,  that is complete nonsense.

[thevelourfog]

Just now, paulw66 said:

This is where cherry picking a small sample doesn't work.

6 games, 4 of which were against the teams who ended up in the bottom 4 places. (the other two finished 8th and 14th)

 

lol, but just making stuff up does? Odd to talk about cherry picking when we managed one win against a team higher than 8th (Villa, who finished 7th and most certainly were not in anything like top-half form for that game) for the entire rest of the season. In fact, no further wins against anyone who finished in the top half. 

I could look at Tuchel's PPG over a longer period and they'd lead to the same conclusion. If you want to argue we'd have had a really tough season that fell beneath are expectations even under Tuchel, I can't see why anyone would want to argue with you or how they'd even manage to. But if you want to argue Tuchel wasn't getting better results from these players and would not have continued to do so than those we eventually did get from Potter and Lampard, I'm out. Just a bizarre position.

[Max Fowler]

4 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

This is where cherry picking a small sample doesn't work.

6 games, 4 of which were against the teams who ended up in the bottom 4 places. (the other two finished 8th and 14th)

Of course taking a PPG when you have played the worst sides changes the view somewhat 

That's not what I said.

I was challenging the statement "we would have got top 6"

It's just too much to take Paul, it really is.

After everything we went through as a fanbase after sacking Tuchel when we did.

To somehow claim that we were on course for disaster - I don't know where to start.

Look - we need to move on - Boehly made his call and we have to accept it.

But we don't have to rewrite history or make ridiculous claims that can't be proved otherwise.

I could say - "we were going to get relegated under Tuchel if things continued!".

You can never disprove it because we never know what really would have happened.

The reality is - Boehly himself admits he made a mistake firing Tuchel when he did.

And look at everything that's happened since. Let's not rewrite history please.

[Bob Singleton]

2 hours ago, Sleeping Dave said:

Having thought about this for quite some time, I’ve landed in the realisation that we will need to make a ballsy reset in terms of the squad for 2023/24. The timing is perfect, and with some mitigating measures we might be able to keep some of the seniority in the squad. Assuming mainly a 4231:

[SNIPPED FOR BREVITY]

Pretty much agree 100% with this.

One player you missed out was Cesare Casadei.  When it comes to him and Santos, I'm in two minds as to which of the two to keep in the squad and which to send out on loan.  I can see both, in a season or two - along with Enzo - being our first choice midfield.

[Max Fowler]

2 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

You really have bought into the narrative about Boehly haven't you .

The media have been reinforcing the dumb yank stereotype for months and months.

He has undoubtedly made mistakes , especially in the early days of his reign where due to the sanctions he inherited a club with no foundation and no staff and first team players already out of contract and leaving that needed replacement immediately .

Since then he has appointed people to fill the roles and has cut his own involvement to 20% .

We all probably agree that getting rid of Tuchel was the biggest mistake even though things were getting worse and not better and replacing him with Potter was in hindsight also a major catastrophe but I don't think he can be blamed too much for that bit as he obviously listened to outside influences who bigged Potter up beyond his capabilities . 

But Tuchel absolutely did not get fired because he wouldn't let Boehly and his entourage into the dressing room ,  that is complete nonsense.

I mean honestly I can absolutely believe it's why he got fired.

Tuchel locking Boehly and his kids out of the dressing room is a major act of dissent and why Simon Jordan said he would have fired him too.

The question is - why was Boehly coming into the dressing room with his kids at all?

He's all over the dressing room and all over the training ground Mark - he can't stay out of the spotlight.

So he's made two enormous errors - firing Tuchel and sacking Potter.

Let me add to that - when he hired Potter he didn't support him at all and shafted him with a ton of new signings.

Look how Newcastle are doing things. Slow - methodical - building up their squad bit by bit.

Boehly the disruptor threw out the baby with the bathwater and we are still picking up the pieces. 

[McCreadie]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

It’s not the gutter press. It’s common football knowledge and common football sense. Clearly he knows something about running sports teams, but football itself? Please. 

No it isn’t. It’s just made up nonsense. The idea that a self made multi billionaire buys a club for 4billion whilst knowing “nothing”about the game is laughable. I would suggest he knows as much about football as anyone here, or put another way, as much as Roman or Sheik Mansour (or any other PL owner) and has, like them, been advised by experts from inside the game at every turn. He has made mistakes and decisions have backfired, I don’t have a problem with that. Once you accept TT had to go due to non-football factors (which you seem to be struggling with), the rest is just a sequence of unfortunate events that could just as easily have spun another way. Now we have experts in place in most of the key positions, things will improve. 

[paulw66]

5 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

lol, but just making stuff up does? Odd to talk about cherry picking when we managed one win against a team higher than 8th (Villa, who finished 7th and most certainly were not in anything like top-half form for that game) for the entire rest of the season. In fact, no further wins against anyone who finished in the top half. 

I could look at Tuchel's PPG over a longer period and they'd lead to the same conclusion. If you want to argue we'd have had a really tough season that fell beneath are expectations even under Tuchel, I can't see why anyone would want to argue with you or how they'd even manage to. But if you want to argue Tuchel wasn't getting better results from these players and would not have continued to do so than those we eventually did get from Potter and Lampard, I'm out. Just a bizarre position.

What is bizarre is you arguing with points I am not making.

It was clear something was very wrong from the outset.

I am not, and have not said Tuchel wouldn't have got more points than Potter/SFL, but I am saying that we wouldn't have had a good season either way.

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, McCreadie said:

No it isn’t. It’s just made up nonsense. The idea that a self made multi billionaire buys a club for 4billion whilst knowing “nothing”about the game is laughable. I would suggest he knows as much about football as anyone here.

And there are "no Boehly apologists on this forum".... 🙄🙄🙄

1 minute ago, paulw66 said:

What is bizarre is you arguing with points I am not making.

It was clear something was very wrong from the outset.

I am not, and have not said Tuchel wouldn't have got more points than Potter/SFL, but I am saying that we wouldn't have had a good season either way.

Actually - you said we were heading for a disaster under Tuchel. 

[paulw66]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

🙄🙄🙄

Actually - you said we were heading for a disaster under Tuchel. 

Maybe disaster was a bit strong, and I guess it depends on your definition of disaster.

We certainly weren't heading for a good season.

[chrisb]

Max, no one knows exactly why TT got sacked. You can believe what you like but there are no hard facts or revelations from either side as to what exactly went on. TT appeared to be losing it and with the unprecedented position he was placed in over the summer it was quite understandable.

I don’t think anyone is disputing that the Eggbohely show made massive mistakes after taking over but they’re done now, there’s nothing any of us can do to change that.

Honestly mate you need to take a deep breath and move on before you give yourself a Bohely induced embolism!

[paulw66]

10 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I mean honestly I can absolutely believe it's why he got fired.

Tuchel locking Boehly and his kids out of the dressing room is a major act of dissent and why Simon Jordan said he would have fired him too.

The question is - why was Boehly coming into the dressing room with his kids at all?

He's all over the dressing room and all over the training ground Mark - he can't stay out of the spotlight.

So he's made two enormous errors - firing Tuchel and sacking Potter.

Let me add to that - when he hired Potter he didn't support him at all and shafted him with a ton of new signings.

Look how Newcastle are doing things. Slow - methodical - building up their squad bit by bit.

Boehly the disruptor threw out the baby with the bathwater and we are still picking up the pieces. 

If you want to believe Boehly fired Tuchel because he wouldn't let his kids in the dressing room, then that's up to you.

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, chrisb said:

Max, no one knows exactly why TT got sacked. You can believe what you like but there are no hard facts or revelations from either side as to what exactly went on. TT appeared to be losing it and with the unprecedented position he was placed in over the summer it was quite understandable.

I don’t think anyone is disputing that the Eggbohely show made massive mistakes after taking over but they’re done now, there’s nothing any of us can do to change that.

Honestly mate you need to take a deep breath and move on before you give yourself a Bohely induced embolism!

I'm up for moving on Chris and have repeatedly said I am still optimistic he can learn from his mistakes - I just can't accept the rewriting of history or the shifting of blame away from Boehly for the season we just had.

[east lower]

Right, we're in the second day of the transfer window and we've bought no one and sold no one.

What are Todd and his motley crew doing..................................shambles. Arsenal have had loads of bids rejected, why can't we be more like them.

(tongue firmly in cheek)

Edited June 15, 2023 by east lower

[paulw66]

12 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

 

Let me add to that - when he hired Potter he didn't support him at all and shafted him with a ton of new signings.

 

Potter was appointed in September. The transfer window was closed until January

 

[Max Fowler]

5 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

If you want to believe Boehly fired Tuchel because he wouldn't let his kids in the dressing room, then that's up to you.

I find it extremely believable - I am saying it's a sackable offence.

"Thomas Tuchel reportedly denied Todd Boehly access to the dressing room during Chelsea's win over West Ham in September.

WHAT HAPPENED? With visits to the Chelsea dressing room becoming more frequent with the club desperately struggling for form, talkSPORT have reported that co-owner Boehly tried the tactic as early as September when Tuchel was still in charge of the club. This incident stood out, however, because it came at half-time of an intense 2-1 win over West Ham, as the American was denied entry by the infuriated head coach."

Given that players have reported since that Boehly is in the dressing room nearly every week, it's not hard to believe.

3 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Potter was appointed in September. The transfer window was closed until January

 

He didn't want all the January signings we made and warned that it would make the dressing room too big.

Boehly didn't listen and threw his boy under the bus. 

Don't know why as he was the only one who liked Potter at that point.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Max Fowler

[McCreadie]

3 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

And there are "no Boehly apologists on this forum".... 🙄🙄🙄

I don’t need to apologise for Boehly, he is very capable of doing that for himself. I do think he is a lot brighter than you think and certainly more knowledgeable about the game than you are.

[thevelourfog]

20 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

What is bizarre is you arguing with points I am not making.

It was clear something was very wrong from the outset.

I am not, and have not said Tuchel wouldn't have got more points than Potter/SFL, but I am saying that we wouldn't have had a good season either way.

No, you said we were heading for a "disaster". That is exactly what I was arguing with. I can see you've since pulled back from that, but it is (to use your word) "disingenuous" to suggest I'm arguing with points you didn't make.

I expected a tough season, but never anything like what actually happened. Not even the most cynical and negative posters here were talking about only being mathematically safe from relegation in April. The worry was Europa Conference qualification! 

On the separate Boehly/"gutter press narrative" chat going on ... I think there needs to be recognition that these owners have clearly (to me, anyway) been more loose-lipped in briefing the press than the previous regime. Much of what makes me think they don't understand the world they're operating in nearly well enough has been filtered through the press but come from them. They evidently are not "clueless", but it's surely as evident they have been massively out of their depth at points. Hopefully the football people they now have in place means this isn't an issue.

Edited June 15, 2023 by thevelourfog

[RDCW]

18 minutes ago, east lower said:

Right, we're in the second day of the transfer window and we've bought no one and sold no one.

What are Todd and his motley crew doing..................................shambles. Arsenal have had loads of bids rejected, why can't we be more like them.

(tongue firmly in cheek)

It's OK, most of us are Brits no need for the bit in brackets!

[Max Fowler]

14 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

I don’t need to apologise for Boehly, he is very capable of doing that for himself. I do think he is a lot brighter than you think and certainly more knowledgeable about the game than you are.

You seriously think he is more knowledgable about football than any serious fan? Seriously?!

I am absolutely fascinated by this idea.

In terms of running a sports team - sure - he has more knowledge than anyone on here.

Actual understanding of football? I think you do fans a disservice who follow the game week in, week out and tend to have a very high level understanding of the game and its nuances.

I don't even think you need to make the argument that he knows anything about football. Make the argument that he has history running successful sports teams that will benefit us.

The guy thought De Bruyne and Salah were products of our youth team; put 4-4-3 on the whiteboard, went fully in on Graham Potter as our manager and believed his stats men who picked out Gordon as the best young player in the Premier League. Is in favour of a North vs South game to raise more money?! 

I'm sorry - nearly every fan knew that Graham Potter was not at the level required to manage Chelsea or a good cultural fit. That showed a patent lack of understanding about football. 

I still am prepared to believe that long-term his knowledge of running a successful sports team will shine through. 
Make that argument. You don't need to argue that the guy is more knowledgeable about football because he clearly isn't.

Boehly himself said:

 “We know people and human capital. We understand game plans and strategies. We're not expecting to be the football experts to find the best talent, we are going to put those people in place."

Edited June 15, 2023 by Max Fowler